REMEMBER the dArk knight rises UnmaRked spOileR threAd | You only legend once

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Like I said before, you absolutely have to assume the audience hasn't seen, nor to they care to see Batman Begins.

Perhaps there's a better way to bring us back there, but this according to RT, TDK more than doubled its predecessor's US box office. I'm sure the margin grows tremendously when you consider its worldwide take.

TDK was a bandwagon film and no one gives a crap about who Ra's Al Ghul is or was. That's the assumption Nolan had to make.
 
Pie and Beans said:
JGL's inclusion in the film was already grating my "ITS THE NOLAN CAST EVERYBODY!" nerves, but then for him to take so much screen time, just work out who Batman was because its that easy, reveal his name is Robin in the stupidest way possible and then just get given the mantle of next Batman just made him into an absolute total Gary Stu. Definitely the absolute worst aspect of the movie by far. That he's 'the dark knight' that rises as suggested by the title then showing after the final shot just had me leaving the cinema with a distinctly "ugh" sentiment.
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Yes. Thank you. This is exactly how I feel. Can't watch BB or TDK coz It'll only lead up to that shit.
 
Eidan said:
Because the general movie going audience would obviously remember that one scene from a movie back in 2005. Stop hand holding Nolan! We're not children!
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I can see the reverse and people would say, "you know, a quick flashback would've helped that scene." Can't win either way.

I personally liked all the flashbacks. The one with Bruce's dad taking his hand and carrying him up was simple, but it worked so well.
 
Toth said:
I have a question from TDK that maybe you guys can answer. When Gordon said at the end of the last movie, the famous "5 of them dead, 2 of them cops", what/who was he referring to? I thought he was talking about Dent but how would he know who Harvey killed? Besides, I only remember him killing 2 people (the old fat cop and Meroni's limo driver. He flipped a coin and spared Ramirez, the other cop). Aside from his attack on his family, what evidence did he have that Dent was a murderer?
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Anyone? :(
 
I can only assume that the flashbacks were added in after screen testing feedback.
 
Eidan said:
Because the general movie going audience would obviously remember that one scene from a movie back in 2005. Stop hand holding Nolan! We're not children!
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Serious question: Why wouldn't they? It's not a throwaway scene either. It is the first interaction Gordon had with Bruce Wayne. Even if they don't remember the actual scene in question, when Batman says a hero can also be "a man who puts a jacket on a young boy to comfort him" I don't think anyone who is of at least average intellect and who is actually paying attention to the film and characters will not understand what he is saying.

Narrative objective: Batman is hinting to Gordon who he really is, while paying him a compliment for something he did for him when he was a kid.

- If an audience member has not watched Batman Begins, but is paying attention to the story told in The Dark Knight Rises, he/she will still understand what is going on, especially since Gordon himself says "Bruce?!" right after.

- If someone watched Batman Begins but does not recall how that scene played out exactly, he/she will probably still remember the general reference.

If on other hand, someone is still completely oblivious at this point, and really needs a direct visual flashback to go "Ah! So Gordon at some point in the past put a coat on Bruce Wayne when he was a boy! Oh!!!" then the entire scene loses further meaning because it is not about the scene itself happening, but why it happened and how it happened. The flashback does not capture any of that.
 
Toth said:
Anyone? :(
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No one is answering because it's just bad writing. There is no way at all to account for "5 dead, 2 of them cops", and there is also no way for Gordon to have known any of the stats at that point, because we see the entire scene between him and Dent from the point he enters the building, and no information was shared. It's just nonsense.
 
duckroll said:
No one is answering because it's just bad writing. There is no way at all to account for "5 dead, 2 of them cops", and there is also no way for Gordon to have known any of the stats at that point, because we see the entire scene between him and Dent from the point he enters the building, and no information was shared. It's just nonsense.
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Thanks duck. That makes sense lol
 
duckroll said:
- If someone watched Batman Begins but does not recall how that scene played out exactly, he/she will probably still remember the general reference.
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My wife is in this category, did not recall, and leaned over. I quickly explained just in time for the flashback. The reference specifically put her in the mind to wonder what that was and then flashback paid it off.

I can buy that it didn't work for you, but stop generalizing your case to everybody.
 
I have realized that all Batman movies have a weak 3rd act.

BB - Microwave emitter + fear inducing weaponized hallucinogen deployed in the Narrows leading to some poorly shot action scenes and general pacing

TDK - Boat scene with shitty extras acting and the fight in the building plagued with typical Nolan action sequences where you can't see shit. Plus that whole act along with Harvey's descent into Two Face was not paced well.

TDKR - The whole action climax was not nearly as epic or as big of a pay off as the movie had been building it up to be. The whole bomb sequence was probably the worst part of the whole movie. Pacing and editing was really shoddy here compared to the rest of the movie.


Overall BB has the least worst 3rd act because really the only thing it is guilty of is having a different tone from the godly 1st act of the movie. It succumbed to many comic book tropes but it was decently enjoyable as were the TDK and TDKR 3rd acts... you just had to shut your brain off at those segments.

All 3 movies had a GODLY last 5 minutes though... DAT Joker turn + "And you will never have to", Batman riding off into the night with the Gordon monologue and of course the TDKR ending with Bruce finally not needing Batman for himself. Amazing stuff.


Serious question: Why wouldn't they? It's not a throwaway scene either. It is the first interaction Gordon had with Bruce Wayne. Even if they don't remember the actual scene in question, when Batman says a hero can also be "a man who puts a jacket on a young boy to comfort him" I don't think anyone who is of at least average intellect and who is actually paying attention to the film and characters will not understand what he is saying.
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A lot of people haven't actually seen BB as compared to TDK and most likely TDKR. It is no surprise that the bulk of flashbacks came from BB instead of TDK. When I first saw the movie I could barely even make out what Batman was saying there (I heard hero, coat and boy) so the flashback was helpful to me even.

It is definitely fine to put that flash back in fact Nolan is known for putting in flashbacks from the SAME movie in those types of moments. That's just his way of things.

Plus people here overestimate the general audience's capacity to figure out stuff even as simple as this. You have no idea how stupid some of the questions were when people came out of the movie... some people actually thought Ra's was alive if it weren't for that cheesy fade out sequence.
 
I thought all the flashbacks were well done. The coat thing was so minuscule in BB that it would've totally flown over my head if it werent for the flashback. All of a sudden, that minuscule scene in BB became very important in TDKR.
 
duckroll said:
Serious question: Why wouldn't they? It's not a throwaway scene either. It is the first interaction Gordon had with Bruce Wayne. Even if they don't remember the actual scene in question, when Batman says a hero can also be "a man who puts a jacket on a young boy to comfort him" I don't think anyone who is of at least average intellect and who is actually paying attention to the film and characters will not understand what he is saying.

Narrative objective: Batman is hinting to Gordon who he really is, while paying him a compliment for something he did for him when he was a kid.

- If an audience member has not watched Batman Begins, but is paying attention to the story told in The Dark Knight Rises, he/she will still understand what is going on, especially since Gordon himself says "Bruce?!" right after.

- If someone watched Batman Begins but does not recall how that scene played out exactly, he/she will probably still remember the general reference.

If on other hand, someone is still completely oblivious at this point, and really needs a direct visual flashback to go "Ah! So Gordon at some point in the past put a coat on Bruce Wayne when he was a boy! Oh!!!" then the entire scene loses further meaning because it is not about the scene itself happening, but why it happened and how it happened. The flashback does not capture any of that.
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I think it's a case of the flashback not really hurting anything by being included (I know you think otherwise, but personally I disagree). I saw the movie with two friends, one who had seen BB years ago and one who hadn't seen it at all, and the inclusion of the flashback clearly helped their understanding of the scene; sure they would have gotten the point of it once Gordon said "Bruce?", but I think the flashback was just a nice tool to help people out. I really don't think Nolan was trying to be subtle-as-a-brick or insult the viewers intelligence or anything like that. The fact that Bale in that scene was almost unintelligible doesn't hurt the flashback's inclusion either, in my opinion.
 
Eidan said:
Because the general movie going audience would obviously remember that one scene from a movie back in 2005. Stop hand holding Nolan! We're not children!
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You act like everyone is going to remember what happened in Batman Begins.

Some of these people going into the film are casual filmgoers instead of hardcore batman fans. They won't make connections from every piece of dialogue in TDKR to BB and TDK.

Edit: My bad, I didn't realize you were being sarcastic lol. I'm out of it today.
 
Hated all of the flashbacks, nothing anything anyone says will change my mind. Worst part of the movie's overall direction for sure. It just got worse and worse as the movie went on. And he just couldn't stop!
 
Oddduck said:
You act like everyone is going to remember what happened in Batman Begins.

Some of these people going into the film are casual filmgoers instead of hardcore batman fans.
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Eidan is being sarcastic toward the people who think Nolan was insulting their intelligence with flashbacks.
 
Solo said:
Some of them were nicely placed (Two-Face intercut with Gordon eulogizing him). Some of them were really clunky (Gordon putting Thomas Wayne's coat on Bruce directly after Bruce just referenced that very scene).
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Pretty much how I feel. The coat flashback didn't ruin anything for me, but it just seemed a bit unnecessary.

But then, we are initiated, aren't we?
 
I'm going to be honest; I've seen BB and TDK probably 8-10 times, and, while I remember Gordon reassuring young Bruce, I pretty much forgot the coat part of that scene.
 
PhoncipleBone said:
Just call him Terry for all the Beyond fans.
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Calling him Terry McGuininess or Richard Grayson or Tim Drake from the beginning would have made it too obvious and also would have made it a different character (those guys weren't cops). Having them reveal at the end scene that his "real" name was Terry McGuinness or Richard Grayson or Tim Drake would have been too confusing (why does a seemingly normal cop use a completely fake name?). Having him named Robin John Blake is a clean, simple way of nodding to the fans that he essentially acted as Batman's side kick during the movie and will now be Bruce's successor. It's fan service that casual fans can also get and be in on.
 
duckroll said:
Hated all of the flashbacks, nothing anything anyone says will change my mind. Worst part of the movie's overall direction for sure. It just got worse and worse as the movie went on. And he just couldn't stop!
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That's fine, but not every film goer is you.

The 30 year old lady sitting in the theater is not going to remember everything happened in BB and TDK.
 
I liked the movie even more on the second viewing. In 10 years someone will make a thread in the OT on GAF asking if this is the best trilogy of films ever. There will be a lot of debate, If I am alive, I will post that this is certainly in the argument.

Nolan saved this franchise. I hope who ever takes the helm, doesn't regress and hurt all the work that Nolan and Bale did.

Bale, you have 100% respect from me.
 
Hero_of_the_Day said:
I absolutely expected that to be addressed in this movie. The fact it wasn't just makes it a really weird screw up.
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I don't think it's weird at all. It's pretty consistent with how various little details and lines don't add up in BB, TDK, Inception, and TDKR if you really think about it and analyze them logically. It doesn't generally hurt the initial experience, but it does show that Nolan is more interested in each scene having a sort of impact in the way it's delivered, versus the entire thing all making perfect sense without plot holes and inconsistencies.
 
Howard Ballou said:
Pretty much how I feel. The coat flashback didn't ruin anything for me, but it just seemed a bit unnecessary.

But then, we are initiated, aren't we?
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You are. At my theater you could the audience say "OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" when they showed Gordon put the coat on Bruce.
 
duckroll said:
Hated all of the flashbacks, nothing anything anyone says will change my mind. Worst part of the movie's overall direction for sure. It just got worse and worse as the movie went on. And he just couldn't stop!
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Five flashbacks, two or three seconds long, interspersed throughout a 2 hour and 45 minute movie is a symptom of not being able to stop?

It's the worst part of the direction?

I can name a hundred worse parts of this movie... and I liked it!
 
Ninja Scooter said:
Calling him Terry McGuininess or Richard Grayson or Tim Drake from the beginning would have made it too obvious and also would have made it a different character (those guys weren't cops). Having them reveal at the end scene that his "real" name was Terry McGuinness or Richard Grayson or Tim Drake would have been too confusing (why does a seemingly normal cop use a completely fake name?). Having him named Robin John Blake is a clean, simple way of nodding to the fans that he essentially acted as Batman's side kick during the movie and will now be Bruce's successor. It's fan service that casual fans can also get and be in on.
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Yeah, casual fans have no idea who Terry or Tim Drake are, and a majority probably don't know who Dick Grayson is considering the Schumacher movies were so long ago. I wish it had been omitted entirely, but just going with "Robin" was the only way to go. The scene was clearly meant to be some kind of treat for fans, and if the line had been "You know, Terry is a really great first name, you should go by that" the casuals would have felt like they'd been left out of an inside joke.
 
Oddduck said:
That's fine, but not every film goer is you.

The 30 year old lady sitting in the theater is not going to remember everything happened in BB and TDK.
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Sure but I don't see why that matters to me. I'm not telling anyone else what to think, I'm just criticizing something that bothered me based on standards I have. I feel those scenes were poorly handled.
 
Tookay said:
Five flashbacks, two or three seconds long, interspersed throughout a 2 hour and 45 minute movie is a symptom of not being able to stop?

It's the worst part of the direction?

I can name a hundred worse parts of this movie... and I liked it!
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So true. The flashbacks weren't even 10 seconds long. Some of them were no longer than 5 seconds.

Some people I heard missed a bunch of them because they were so short.
 
Just read monks stuff on page 1- Im guessing they changed stuff in the final movie or hes going off a leaked script draft - because he was spot on with a lot of the stuff.
 
The Dark Knight at least was meant to move along like something that builds momentum at each stage.

With that goal in mind, I'm amazed it made as much sense as it did.
 
L1NETT said:
I still find it Odd that Batman Begins is so many people's favourite of the three. They are all great movies, but TDK is the best for me. TDKR and BB are equal second, although I know a lot of people here don't believe that.

The best line was indeed the "So that's what that feels like" Got a chuckle from my Cinema (theater)
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Begins is a great movie. But I think what gives it that extra impact is because of what we had leading up to it. By TDK and TDKR we know what to expect and we know that 'serious/realistic' Batman can be done. But to see what Begins pulled off after Ice to See You and bat nipples was mind blowing.
 
peterb0y said:
Just read monks stuff on page 1- Im guessing they changed stuff in the final movie or hes going off a leaked script draft - because he was spot on with a lot of the stuff.
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No, he really wasn't. The only stuff he got right is that Talia and "Ra's" is in the movie. Those were already existing rumors months before the movie was out.
 
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