REMEMBER the dArk knight rises UnmaRked spOileR threAd | You only legend once
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Yea, I totally pity people who care about sloppy writing in their triple-A movies.
... Not.... ringing any bells....
Nope.
Haven't watched Prestige in five years though.
Oh yeah, that's true. It's also possible that the researched more on Bane off-screen before that, and hence had a pretty good idea of where he was once he figured out he was thrown into the same prison. Good Catch!
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Mortal Kombat SNES all over again.
Batman: Year Two made a pretty huge deal about Bruce's no-gun vow, so seeing him shoot someone in the leg in BB was kind of a shock to me. His less strict no-killing policy in the movies has never quite sat right with me, but I keep having to remind myself that Nolan's Bruce Wayne is a pretty distinct reinterpretation of the character.
faceless007
Member
He showed them the bomb but didn't say anything about the countdown. He lead them to believe Gotham could save itself somehow by taking back the city.
Yeah, I mean, I don't feel as strongly about this movie the way you do, but I do understand where you're coming from in nearly all the criticisms.
The plotting and editing of this film is more than a little sloppy. It feels like Nolan's running up against a time limit (IMAX's) and trying to get everything in there he can.
I think slashfilm makes a lot of good points. It's just that the good outweighs the bad for me.
But wouldn't Bruce know that removed it would cause it to decay?
I forgot.
planar1280
Banned
So Bane wears a bullet proof vest, was the bullets catwoman shot, armor piercing rounds?
Sho_Nuff82
Member
RE: number 1.
Bane is a member of the League of Shadows. The League of Shadows, as an organization, knows Bruce's secret identity. That knowledge didn't magically go away just because Ra's died, Bruce trained with dozens of others, with only confirmed dead guy in his escape being Ra's bodyguard/double/decoy.
It can reasonably be assumed that after the LoS was defeated in part 1, they regrouped under new leadership (the returning Bane and Talia), and let them know why they suffered such a spectacular failure.
The Tumbler shot explosive and/or armor piercing rounds, the guns were really only there to clear debris when he was shown using it previously. Obviously turning a weapon like that on some poor meatbag would be extremely unhealthy, if not fatal.
Bane is a member of the League of Shadows. The League of Shadows, as an organization, knows Bruce's secret identity. That knowledge didn't magically go away just because Ra's died, Bruce trained with dozens of others, with only confirmed dead guy in his escape being Ra's bodyguard/double/decoy.
It can reasonably be assumed that after the LoS was defeated in part 1, they regrouped under new leadership (the returning Bane and Talia), and let them know why they suffered such a spectacular failure.
The Tumbler shot explosive and/or armor piercing rounds, the guns were really only there to clear debris when he was shown using it previously. Obviously turning a weapon like that on some poor meatbag would be extremely unhealthy, if not fatal.
Ninja Scooter
Member
They weren't bullets, they were friggin rockets.
faceless007
Member
He didn't know the core had been removed. Only Fox and Talia knew that because they saw it. It wasn't public because JGL has to have Fox tell the Special Forces guys that it's on a timer.
The Elite
BOSS
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Plot holes happen in all movies, as do occurrences that can be described as far-fetched. If these things mar your movie going experience so badly, like I said, I feel bad for you.
Zoe
Member
1 and 11 could be explained by League of Shadows, 11 explicitly so.
5 was addressed by Lucius (the board forcing them to act before the fraud could be straightened out). If you want to nitpick something there, why does the electricity at the Manor get shut off after only a manner of days?
You're getting the timeline mixed up...
At the funeral, how would Alfred know that Bruce is still alive? At the funeral EVERYONE still thought Bruce was dead. It wasn't until AFTER the funeral where all of Bruce's little clues to his group started popping up to let them know that he was alive.
After the funeral, sure I can see that Alfred knew Bruce was alive. But during the funeral, no way. Everyone thought he was dead while they were at the funeral.
I really think you should watch this movie again, if you're going to continue slinging complaints. Because many of your complaints have been incorrect.
I'm saying:
1) Bruce funded the device, so he probably knows what removing it does (it would decay for five months).
2) Bane removed the device and turned it into a bomb.
3) Bane wheeled the bomb out during the stadium scene, telling Gotham it was the instrument of their liberation.
4) Bruce was watching the televised destruction of the city, so he probably could see the fact that the bomb was removed and that the countdown had commenced.
Or am I missing something?
I've come to accept that it's just how Nolan does things. His bigger films pretty much all have sloppy plotting and editing. This is most telling when he does scenes which are supposed to keep the audience "in the zone" for an extended set piece. For example: The final monorail chase in BB, the chase with Dent in the middle of TDK, and the car chase in Inception while they're dreaming inside the van.
These scenes all consist of a lot of cuts which feel really exciting, along with dramatic moments where there is suspense as to whether someone is going to make it or not, and sometimes lines of dialogue which throw out numbers or details which are meant to elevate the suspense and danger.
Yet when they are analyzed as a whole and all the details and information provided are broken down and compared, stuff generally don't add up, the plans don't make much sense, or there are inconsistencies with what the dialogue says and what is being shown. But the way the scenes are directed, they are so fast moving that it is clearly not intended for the audience to be thinking analytically at that moment, so it just feels exciting. It's the experience and thrill that Nolan is going for, and he either doesn't care about making all the details add up, or he just doesn't pay enough attention to clean stuff up because it's not important to his intent.
Once I accepted that, it becomes easier to enjoy those scenes on repeat viewings.
faceless007
Member
Oh, just for my own curiosity, a few weeks ago in the hype thread some junior suicided by posting a spoiler and causing a shitstorm. Anyone remember what the spoiler was?
MrPink93485
Member
Think you pretty much got it.
I think that says more about the writer of the article than it does about the movie.
He said Bane killed Alfred.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
There were certainly some of the contrivances in the movie, some of which were outlined in that slashgear article. What particularly bothered me was how the somewhat unpredictably unstable reactor core ended up with up-to-second correct countdown timer - as well as the very existence of said timer.
It doesn't seem crazy at all, but Nolan does have problems showing an existence of true chemistry between the characters (that's his problem in general IMO) which is why I could see someone thinking this scene looked off. I think Marion's acting made it believable despite Nolan's best efforts though.
I think you nailed it, but I'll add more details to support those points too.
- Bruce is also the one who refused to turn the reactor on or to make it public because he has been sitting in fear of the reactor being weaponized ever since the report from the scientist came out.
- That same scientist is the person who is shown on television talking about the bomb before he is killed by Bane.
I think Bruce can pretty much put the facts together, and he would have a really good idea of what they're dealing with.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Actually DKR has an overarching theme of being able to rise from failure, through adversity. Bruce had spent the last eight years as hermit still saddened and broken over Rachel, unable to move on eventually like a rational human being. Batman gets beat into the darkest hole he's ever been in, and is still able to solve the contingency.
It's not a particularly deep theme, but it's there and the movie beats you in the face with it practically every few scenes.
MrPink93485
Member
It really isn't. The writer acts like they were in love with each other. It was a one night stand essentially. Miranda has her obvious reasons for sex-ing up Bruce, Bruce hasn't had sex in presumably 8 years, guy isn't gonna say no to Marion Cotillard.
Yea that complaint was weird. They were both attractive and horny (especially Bruce). I didn't wake up the next morning after one of my one night stands and say "hey... do you think it's weird we just sort of... did this?..."
We just go to a diner and never speak again.
Not just that Bane killed Alfred
BANE KILLS ALFRED
BANE KILLS ALFRED
BANE KILLS ALFRED
BANE KILLS ALFRED
BANE KILLS ALFRED
Bane is the League of Shadows, pretty sure they have some history with this Bruce guy.
He has natural detective skills, yet later they say he can't be Batman! Make up your mind!
ok, and?
I thought Bruce was standing on a staircase? What ever, I didn't think it was cringe worthy.
I'm sure the SEC would have overturned it, but they just needed Bruce to give Talia access to the device. They didn't give a shit about the shares.
But...it does. [/relio]
A badass moment like this bothered them? What the fuck.
I get the feeling this was Dave Chen since he's usually the one who brings up things he had problems with that were explained heavy handedly.
Because he's a goddam ninja.
Dave Chen.
Ok.
Yes, which is why we even have Batman in the city in the first place.
Disagree.
It was the same setup as TDK's ending, what?
faceless007
Member
I guess 1) is what we're supposed to assume and there's no proof against it, but I don't know why he would assume the core had been removed. 4) seems like a stretch to me because after the stadium the bomb is kept in the truck patrolling the streets.
The timer itself could be a safety mechanism built into the core to indicate meltdown status. It isn't unreasonable to expect something like that, considering how paranoid Bruce was about the technology in the first place. There is no indication in the movie ever that the countdown was related to it being a bomb. No one in the movie every references the physical timer either. It's just shown for sake of the audience.
I agree with all of this, especially the bolded.
I think the disconnect that's happening here with some people more than maybe TDK, is that Nolan's typically deft direction doesn't sometimes match the scope and ambition of this entry. A story revolving around the months-long takeover of the equivalent of New York is bold, but a bit too much for Nolan to handle. The elongated time-span and geography hopping only add to the clunkiness in transitioning.
I'm on the side that some things can be left up the imagination and that the film largely works, but there are a lot of interesting scenarios and potential that aren't followed up on or explained fully. Some of them, such as Bruce's return to Gotham, could have added to the emotional arc of the story, by making it a bigger deal that he found a way to get back in.
The Mana Legend
Banned
But but but but he kills their relationship!
Speedymanic
Banned
Watched it again and now I'm even more convinced that Bruce is dead and Alfred imagines him being there.
There are a few hints throughout the movie, Alfred tells Bruce about taking a girl out for Coffee, Selina happens to be wearing the pearls that Bruce took back before his ownage at the hands of Bane so how did she get them again and the most telling piece - how on earth did Bruce know Alfred would take a vacation or when he'd be there?
I think the fixed auto pilot is a red herring, something he did but decided not to use in the end as he couldn't see a life beyond being the Bat. With regards to the fixed bat sign, I think we see the ending out of sync. Blake finds the batcave and everything else and decides Gotham needs to the legend of bats alive so he goes about fixing the sign. (this is a reach, but it's possible)
And one last thing, why/how on Earth is Gordon still commish at the end? Dude was outed as lying and being responsible for the immoral and possibly illegal incarceration of 1000 people and yet he gets to keep his job?
C'mon.
There are a few hints throughout the movie, Alfred tells Bruce about taking a girl out for Coffee, Selina happens to be wearing the pearls that Bruce took back before his ownage at the hands of Bane so how did she get them again and the most telling piece - how on earth did Bruce know Alfred would take a vacation or when he'd be there?
I think the fixed auto pilot is a red herring, something he did but decided not to use in the end as he couldn't see a life beyond being the Bat. With regards to the fixed bat sign, I think we see the ending out of sync. Blake finds the batcave and everything else and decides Gotham needs to the legend of bats alive so he goes about fixing the sign. (this is a reach, but it's possible)
And one last thing, why/how on Earth is Gordon still commish at the end? Dude was outed as lying and being responsible for the immoral and possibly illegal incarceration of 1000 people and yet he gets to keep his job?
C'mon.
He would assume the core's been removed, because Bane wheeled it out on a cart, clearly not apart from any reactor, during the stadium scene. You think the international news wouldn't be covering it or repeating it over months?
This is like the ME3 indoctrination ending all over again.
PREP TIME PREP TIME PREP TIME.
Well put. Which would explain why I always stop and think "wait this is stupid" in repeat viewings. Except in the Prestige.
No, I understand the timeline. At the funeral they weren't aware Bruce was alive.
What I'm saying is that the funeral scene is empty/meaningless because in the very next scene he meets up with Bruce. So his mourning and tearful apology for failing the Waynes loses its emotional impact, like right away.
It's of a criticism of the editing of the film (#15 on the Slashfilm piece "Multiple Ending Syndrome" and how too much stuff happens in the last five minutes)
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Some of those are valid, some aren't (this is coming from someone who didn't like this movie).
1. Bane knows it's Bruce because Talia knows because Ras knew. No need to have this explained, you know her father knew, so it takes no stretch to imagine she knew. How Bane knew about Applied Sceinces is a good point.
2. Blake just knowing Bruce was Batman was dumb. Agreed.
3. I didn't mind the Bruce arc, if you do, fair enough, can't agree or disagree. They are two different arcs though. The first hurdle is physical, the second in the prison is a mental journey (mostly, there's still the whole broken back thing, but that's not really what the prison is about).
Saying he didn't have the brace is a unknown quantity. You never saw Bane take it off and since that would require removing Bruces pants (unless he is naked under the bat suit) it's not a stretch to assume he still had it.
5. Fox says they will, it'll just take time.
6. Is the biggest problem with the movie in my opinion. I didn't feel like there was enough time to develop the relationship between Bruce/Selina/Tate/Blake.
10. Doesn't need to be shown. Doesn't matter. I can see why it is jarring for people though, fair enough. I've said it before, I think a simple shot of Bruce looking into Gotham from the outside would have made it all better. I think it was just the fact that he was just suddenly there that messed with people, not really the "how?" of it.
11. I thought it was implied that certain people in the prsion are given things in order to take care of the place. Bane runs the place, rewards certain people for making sure shit runs according to plan. It's a stretch, but it's what the movie tells us, so you either accept it or you don't.
Most of the rest are opinions, most I agree with.
Takamura-San
Member
I'm hoping for the extended edition bluray with 40mins of more footage.
Including:
Bruce's travels back to gotham and shaves on the way.
Montage of preparing the fire bat.
More talia time and lead up to the hook up.
More blake, blaking things up.
Catwoman taking the training to use the batcycle.
Batman fixing the auto pilot.
CANNOT WAIT.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Helped save Gotham from Bane. War Hero redux.
Also, he's not personally responsible for the Dent Act or it's results. There are lawmakers for that.
How does his apology to the Waynes lose its emotional impact if he meant it, and believed Bruce was dead at the time?
theytookourjobz
Junior Member
While all the things on that list might be leaps in logic, none of them bothered me because it's a movie about a guy that dresses up like a bat.
OMG! This is like Inception all over again. I don't want to reply seriously because I don't think the ending is subtle or open to interpretation in this case. But goddamn, I guess we have to accept that some people will see it this way.
Bruce could walk up to Alfred, say "I'M ALIVE ALFRED" and people would still think Alfred's hallucinating.
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