water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Wonderful. Then we are in agreement that while Steam was not a store at launch, Steam as a storefront was Valves vision for the service before it even came out.
Notch speaks again about Minecraft not being on Steam
- Thread starter Omikaru
- Start date
Yes, but that wasn't even the point. You alleged Steam was birthed as "a Trojan horse in one of the most anticipated PC releases", but that's demonstrably untrue; as I've pointed out many times, it existed before then, and in a much different state. Valve's desire to eventually have Steam act as a digital storefront is irrelevant. From the looks of things, though, you know that and simply misspoke.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
If it ends this ceaseless round and round which started when you responded to an altered quote of mine, you win. i am wrong.
It wouldn't be just games, it'd also be nearly two decades of application compatibility as well... Photoshop, iTunes, Kindle? All gone. Chrome and Firefox? Gone too. QuickBooks, MySQL, AutoCAD? You better hope they are on the Windows Store.
Closing off Windows would be the stupidest thing Microsoft could ever do.
I explained why I changed the "how" to a "why", and you later even said yourself that you're "not talking about the 'when' but the 'why'." So it seems I was right to make the slight alteration.
It was. They were shopping the idea around to publishers before it even launched.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Obviously my post did not stop this madness so i rescind my surrender.
i said:
You responded to the above with:
i then pointed out that during GDC 2002 that Valve themselves said that Steam was to be a storefront. You are wrong. Plain and simple.
I'll admit that I misread "launched to become" as "launched as". In any case, it's beyond your initial assertion that Steam was birthed as a trojan horse in Half-Life 2. Of course, it's obvious now that you misspoke and meant it was to become just that. Seems we're both at fault for this needlessly long back-and-forth.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
No, they had to extend it because businesses refused to upgrade to vista since it was pants.
Yes, as happened with vista. It barely made any headway because no one bought it in and of itself. Pretty much the only numbers it got were from preinstalls.
Gaming staways won't really bother MS I suspect, but I'm surprised they seem to care so little what the corporate sector think of W8 - right now most everyone is geared to skipping w8 because of the moronic gui decisions(assuming MS don't fix them before autumn, but that seems unlikely now).
derExperte
Member
That won't be the reason. A lot of businesses just upgraded to W7 after years of waiting and even if W8 would be the greatest OS ever conceived the normal procedure for most corporations is to skip releases. MS knows this, they know their corporate customers behaviour and that's exactly why W8 is more geared towards the consumer.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
So you think Microsoft will reverse direction for W9?
derExperte
Member
Could happen if W8 really tanks, MS certainly knows it's a risky step. But if not they can build on W8, talk to their corporate buddies and ask them what they want improved for the next version. Corporate is just not the focus right now because very few businesses upgrade their systems every three years.
Well, this is becoming a weird kind of monopoly where the customers are actually inflicting it upon themselves. Sure, cheap games! For now, wheeeeee! It's to the point, though, that many gamers out there are starting to refuse to buy - or even play for *free* - games that aren't on Steam. I don't know how many times I've seen or heard people say they flatly will not play a game, even if they really want to play it, unless either 1) it's launched from Steam (usually they don't know about how you can link non-Steam games to the service) or 2) can be bought on Steam. They're backing themselves into a monopoly and don't care that they're doing it.
Valve is pushing the same buttons that Apple does in creating a consumer base that's so in love with the company that they're not questioning basic things about what they're buying and what other competition is out there. In many cases, they actively are avoiding seeing what else is out there. You know, good on Valve for figuring this out and taking advantage of human behavior or whatever, but the concerns that came up when Steam first started being a place to buy games - the ones that many gamers now don't care that they had oh so many years ago - still apply.
SteveWinwood
Member
I'd watch a JaseC/WaterWendi sitcom.
They have to live together and we get to see what crazy hijinks they get into.
They have to live together and we get to see what crazy hijinks they get into.
RealDeadOne
Member
His points are perfectly valid, but it seems really hypocritical of him to say that about Steam and then put Minecraft on XBLA and iOS which are both monopolies of their own, both cost money to be on and both involve signing deals with companies, definitely less indie than Steam. Steam is about as indie as you can get while being a success nowadays, short of special breakthroughs like Minecraft.
So it really just comes down to "I don't want to share my profits", and it's lame that he's making excuses as if he's a protector of the indie PC scene. I mean there's nothing wrong with wanting the most money from the thing you made, but don't pretend like it's anything more than that.
That said, I don't really mind that Minecraft isn't on Steam. A bunch of the biggest PC games aren't (Blizzard games, LoL, Battlefield 3) because they don't need to be, they've become successes on their own. Plus now we can add custom icons to non-Steam games so you can have the game in your library anyway.
So it really just comes down to "I don't want to share my profits", and it's lame that he's making excuses as if he's a protector of the indie PC scene. I mean there's nothing wrong with wanting the most money from the thing you made, but don't pretend like it's anything more than that.
That said, I don't really mind that Minecraft isn't on Steam. A bunch of the biggest PC games aren't (Blizzard games, LoL, Battlefield 3) because they don't need to be, they've become successes on their own. Plus now we can add custom icons to non-Steam games so you can have the game in your library anyway.
If only I had the Photoshop skills to slap a title card together!
As a developer I wish that Steam wasn't so important in the gaming space.
It's a great shame that all the competition are so weak, with even Microsoft dropping the ball on an integrated store, and Amazon fumbling stuff somewhat. Right now the second best option for sales is actually the Mac App Store, which isn't even on Windows. I really like GOG's service, and would love to see other stores ran in a similar manner.
Steam 'fandom' is pretty gross at times, and certainly the 'identity' of the store with its dudebro grey application skin can be offputting to some potential customers. However perhaps that really is the face of PC games.
It's a great shame that all the competition are so weak, with even Microsoft dropping the ball on an integrated store, and Amazon fumbling stuff somewhat. Right now the second best option for sales is actually the Mac App Store, which isn't even on Windows. I really like GOG's service, and would love to see other stores ran in a similar manner.
Steam 'fandom' is pretty gross at times, and certainly the 'identity' of the store with its dudebro grey application skin can be offputting to some potential customers. However perhaps that really is the face of PC games.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Minecraft doesn't need Steam, so it's easy for him to say.
It's like when Radiohead released that "free" album. People were jizzing themselves over the "future of distribution". Completely ignoring the fact that they were one of the biggest richest bands on the planet and could do whatever the hell they wanted, but there are still thousands of unknown bands slaving away in garages and bars, hoping they get picked up by a label.
Tell an indie developer that their game will be featured on the front page of Steam with bonus TF2 hats, and dare them to decline.
It's like when Radiohead released that "free" album. People were jizzing themselves over the "future of distribution". Completely ignoring the fact that they were one of the biggest richest bands on the planet and could do whatever the hell they wanted, but there are still thousands of unknown bands slaving away in garages and bars, hoping they get picked up by a label.
Tell an indie developer that their game will be featured on the front page of Steam with bonus TF2 hats, and dare them to decline.
I've now heard everything.
RealDeadOne
Member
You make a good point, but you cannot be serious with this line...
What?!
Holy Order Sol
Member
Clean = dudebro now.
This is not a gender neutral brand.
Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
But the things that MS have taken away hurt home non-touch users too, albeit not quite as badly as corporate users.
It just seems rather a baffling move to alienate non-touch users which I can't for the life me understand the logic behind - having both is great, but gimping the desktop side is just bizarre.
Visualante2
Member
If Steam can attract the more mature train simulation market I think you're probably putting a bit much emphasis on the relationship between design and audience. I would certainly agree that the design is a bit immature, but at the same time I appreciate that. Would Apple put community features and statistics on their home page? The ubiquity of clean white design (mostly from corporations simply trying to copy Apple's house style) is more sickening to me.
RealDeadOne
Member
What? Since when can only males like grey or dark UIs? So because it's not a clone of Apple it's "dudebro"? I don't see any problem at all with that UI.
The graphs are there because tech-nerds like graphs. The "style" of images is just the ads for the games on the service.
It looks like a store where you buy videogames.
I think GOG, despite selling some pretty male-centric content, have a design which is more welcoming. Steam seems keen to reduce players down to the same sort of players, as though everyone there is keen on TF2 or Gary's Mod.
Stores where you buy videogames, or where you buy comics, are hardly gender neutral either. They're designed for 17 year old boys also.
Turning on steam, not least of which with its heavy community features, makes me feel as though it isn't a place for me. It feels as though its designed for a specific type of customer, building on its original community of Half Life 2 players.
Stores where you buy videogames, or where you buy comics, are hardly gender neutral either. They're designed for 17 year old boys also.
Turning on steam, not least of which with its heavy community features, makes me feel as though it isn't a place for me. It feels as though its designed for a specific type of customer, building on its original community of Half Life 2 players.
Actually he's kinda right you know.
The fact that so much estate is used for brands such as MW doesn't help certainly but really the interface is much less family friendly than say....NXE on the 360.
I don't know I just like colors.
RealDeadOne
Member
Although after five seconds of Modern Warfare you're greeted by a Civilization ad.
The interface isn't supposed to be "family friendly", it's for the enthusiast gamer, who doesn't need lots of help links and ads for Netflix. It is designed solely to allow someone who likes games to buy games as efficiently as possible.
It has absolutely nothing to do with male orientation, it just so happens that there are more males that fit the target demographic than females.
There is also no ads for TF2, Half-Life, Garry's Mod or any Valve product except L4D which is on sale on the front page at all.
And yes of course it's built for a specific type of customer: the person who buys lots of games. I don't see how you're getting "17 year old boys" out of "grey background". And if you're not the type of customer who... plays lots of games, then yeah, maybe it isn't the place for you. The fact is that it's made for people who love PC games, not for families and 16 year old girls who only own Kinect and a DS Lite, because those aren't the games that they are selling.
I don't understand how you can openly criticize a store for selling its wares to the people who want to buy them and not people who don't.
Then you're agreeing with us then in that it IS targeted toward the average male gamer.
And I wasn't talking about Netflix and other crap that take to much place on the NXE, I'm talking about the general feel about it.
It's really a fact that the NXE is, despite the constant ad nags, rather bright and inviting (now if only the content mattered one bit...).
Oh and I don't even have a 360 or anything.
If I was at home I'd be trying to Photoshop a dudebro pie-chart right now.
This is not a gender neutral brand.
Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.
Are you saying that females can't like Steam's layout and colours? If so you're basically putting forward gender essentialism.
Why are you talking about the content? dock has an issue with the layout and colours.
RealDeadOne
Member
No, it's targeted towards the average gamer. I don't think there is anything that can be seen as inherently male about the interface except that it is dark instead of white, and I disagree with that. That the average gamer is male is an unrelated fact.
I'm questioning the assumption that it has to be inviting to anybody. Who does it need to invite? If you've built or even bought a gaming PC you're likely not going to see a dark background and throw your hands up saying "this interface makes me want to run away!".
I have a hard time coming up with the type of gamer who Steam just doesn't appeal to because of the UI. I guess people who only play the Sims? Or people who only play Imagine games on DS? But then again there's not much for them to buy on Steam in the first place?
The interface makes product stand out and is optimized for readability. Don't make this into something it's not. If Valve thought pink and orange were optimal the interface would be pink and orange.
If you want to skin the rest of the Steam interface feel free to make it as bright as you want.
It is pretty close to a monopoly already. As long as Gabe's around, I don't have too many fears, but when he leaves, who knows what the new overlords will do?
TheGreatDivide
Banned
This is not a gender neutral brand.
Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.
This post is amazing.
This hypothetical question has always puzzled me. Why exactly would Valve suddenly shift direction when being consumer-orientated is what has brought the company to its current dominant position? I understand it's a possibility insofar that it's not impossible (i.e. there are no forces in play that would stop Gabe's successor suddenly deciding to steer the company off its current course), however beyond that there's nothing to suggest it would happen. Every interviewed Valve employee expresses an acute understanding of why Valve as a company is where it is.
Edit: And on the subject of Gabe's successor, who do we think will take his place? My money's always been on Doug Lombardi.
No, it's not. This discussion has been carried to death in this thread, not sure why you picked out my comment from the first page.
Holy Order Sol
Member
I wasn't aware there was that kind of controversy around Steam, actually. I don't play a lot of games on PC but when I do I just enjoy the convenience. However, as usual, it's all the posts of people trying to restore some sort of "balance" for the sake of it that I find annoying.
MightyHedgehog
Member
I don't understand what the fuck the point of an open platform (PC) is if everyone is expected to go through the same storefronts and then criticized for not doing so for their own perfectly valid reasons. Steam is obviously not real monopoly, but it is the biggest and fastest-growing e-store for PC games out there, bar none. The problem is naturally that, like all super popular things, when people really like something, they tend to help enable more legit monopolies by massing on one over others, creating a situation which might require a fracturing of whatever will be considered 'stable' and 'normal' for all future releases, especially for those who adamantly prefer it to other options.
Hopefully Eric Wolpaw and Chet Faliszek will take over for some crazyness. But yes, Doug Lombardi seems as likely as anyone else.
The interface makes product stand out and is optimized for readability. Don't make this into something it's not. If Valve thought pink and orange were optimal the interface would be pink and orange.
If you want to skin the rest of the Steam interface feel free to make it as bright as you want.
Good to know, guess that's why pc is always better heh.
I do know I didn't go through the steam shop more than I needed to because the UI didn't mesh at all with the rest of my comp UI.
I won't lie I'm not a pc gamer (handheld/console actually and no, no imagine games, the usual fare from Uncharted to Mario while going through Demon's souls, Xenoblade or Dragon's Dogma) and well the UI is not exactly perfect either.
One thing for sure I don't give a shit at all about all the community stuffs so I really don't see the use in it (on top of that my DD space is more precious than my shelf space so I rarely install games that are more than a few hundred megs on it).
I don't think I know an online store I find useful though....
You'll have to admit the image paint a peculiar picture on the UI (which is not totally unlike my, very limited, experience with it)
Houston3000
Member
Wow, really? A graph of active users is "overtly male"? ...and when did the color gray become anything other than completely neutral?
This is not a gender neutral brand.
Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.
I mean, obviously the layout is targeted towards males though, I mean... look, they have TWO columns divided into BOX shapes with TABS! Obviously if it were targeted toward females everything would be shaped like flowers and laid out in a heart pattern, right?
/sarcasm
Steam's logo is a hard, geometric, colourless symbol of power and metallic strength. The abundance of relatively meaningless stat information and graphs is typically a very masculine thing. The colours and shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine. The spacing and layout information is very dense, with dramatic black shadowy visuals for every area.
Amazon, Spotify, GOG, Apple, Google and even Play.com have design that doesn't look like the male equivalent of pink with flowered unicorns.
Amazon, Spotify, GOG, Apple, Google and even Play.com have design that doesn't look like the male equivalent of pink with flowered unicorns.
MDSLKTR
Member
This is not a gender neutral brand.
Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.
TheGreatDivide
Banned
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine
shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine