Notch speaks again about Minecraft not being on Steam

The interface makes product stand out and is optimized for readability. Don't make this into something it's not. If Valve thought pink and orange were optimal the interface would be pink and orange.

If you want to skin the rest of the Steam interface feel free to make it as bright as you want.

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While this is obviously the best Steam skin, I don't see any way in which Steam's layout is particularly "manly". I suppose you could say it's utilitarian, but that's gender neutral.
 
Steam's logo is a hard, geometric, colourless symbol of power and metallic strength. The abundance of relatively meaningless stat information and graphs is typically a very masculine thing. The colours and shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine. The spacing and layout information is very dense, with dramatic black shadowy visuals for every area.

Amazon, Spotify, GOG, Apple, Google and even Play.com have design that doesn't look like the male equivalent of pink with flowered unicorns.

This is utter bullshit gender essentialism. Men (and women) as individuals differ from each other just as much as men as a group differ from women as a group.

You need to back up your claims with some research here.
 
statistics and graphs are overtly male? really?

you are the kind of person science departments are fighting against (i mean, the ones not run by people who think girls can't do math)
 
dock i can get you in touch with some female physics researchers and theorists if you want to ask them what could have possibly induced them to not go into a more "feminine" field

not to mention the majority-women biologist population here
 
Steam's logo is a hard, geometric, colourless symbol of power and metallic strength. The abundance of relatively meaningless stat information and graphs is typically a very masculine thing. The colours and shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine. The spacing and layout information is very dense, with dramatic black shadowy visuals for every area.

Amazon, Spotify, GOG, Apple, Google and even Play.com have design that doesn't look like the male equivalent of pink with flowered unicorns.

The Amazon logo is overtly male as the arrow looks like a penis.

GWlf1.jpg
 
Amazon, Spotify, GOG, Apple, Google and even Play.com have design that doesn't look like the male equivalent of pink with flowered unicorns.

No, instead they all (with partial exception of GOG) look like souless mail delivery catalogues for cosmetics.
I don't think that's the style gaming store should go by, especially since Steam isn't just a store, but whole community.
 
Steams design does come across as a bit male but i dont have a problem with it. Although i had not thought of it until now i could see a developer not being thrilled about it.
 
Steams design does come across as a bit male but i dont have a problem with it. Although i had not thought of it until now i could see a developer not being thrilled about it.

To be honest, there aren't that many female-centric games on Steam. For those titles people propably go to Bigfish or similiar portal.
 
It's not a matter of gender essentialism, it's just a aspect of comparison. Taking gender out of the equation, when accessing Steam I don't feel like I'm enough of a headset wearing fan of guns, war, management or brawny combat.

Which stores, UIs or services look more like they're suited to a gamer stereotype than Steam?

Other sites and services manager to present content with less emphasis on the identity of the customer. With the heavy community push, Steam looks as though it's gathering players of a similar type.

I think Steam is a great service for buying games, nevertheless. I just wouldn't recommend it to my parents, non-gamer friends, or anyone that wasn't a 'keen gamer'.
 
i don't think there's much question that steam caters primarily to men, given that the target audience for most of the games available on steam is men. this (at least right now) appears to be just a business decision, as these games sell the most - if their primary interest was attracting women to the platform, in theory things would be set up differently, even if it was as simple as featuring games targeted as women, as opposed to those they think will sell the most.

this might be a long-term problem for the growth of the platform. i don't know much about business.

but the idea that steam is somehow excluding women by, for example, having numbers is absurdly offensive to just about everyone involved. as is the idea that "heavy community features" are driving women off (isn't the marketing stereotype that women like social games, anyway?). is your concern that community features on steam in particular are enabling harassment of women (i believe at least one steam group got shut down over this recently)? because that is at least a legitimate concern that maybe valve should pay more attention to if they aren't.
 
So he doesn't want Minecraft on a store like Steam because of how big of a player on the PC platform they are and the percentage cut, but is quite happy to throw the IP around and allow console versions like Minecraft 360 where everything is under MS control and also takes a similar cut?

Alright then...
 
It's not a matter of gender essentialism, it's just a aspect of comparison. Taking gender out of the equation, when accessing Steam I don't feel like I'm enough of a headset wearing fan of guns, war, management or brawny combat.

Which stores, UIs or services look more like they're suited to a gamer stereotype than Steam?

Other sites and services manager to present content with less emphasis on the identity of the customer. With the heavy community push, Steam looks as though it's gathering players of a similar type.

I think Steam is a great service for buying games, nevertheless. I just wouldn't recommend it to my parents, non-gamer friends, or anyone that wasn't a 'keen gamer'.

You like pink. We get it.
 
So he doesn't want Minecraft on a store like Steam because of how big of a player they are and the percentage cut, but is quite happy to throw the IP around and allow console versions like Minecraft 360 where everything is under MS control and also takes a similar cut?

Alright then...
i believe the difference is the platform.
 
Funny you say that i just went to Steam to check out if BigFish stuff was there. i havent done a thorough check but you are right.

I wonder if it's more Valve or Big Fish decision. I must say, some of the hidden object games they're making as awesome.
 
I'm a tiny bit guilty of buying all my games on Steam, but only buy at 75% off or nothing. But i don't flat out refuse to not get a game because its not on Steam and make excuses like "But Steam deletes my shortcuts!". It's really idiotic some people flat out ignoring GW2, Minecraft and PoE just because it's not on Steam.

One of these days Valve will become corrupt like EA, mark my works. The early signs are already there. It may not be within 5 years but one of these days Valve will stop giving a shit because they will have no reason to. This is the problem with a client based system, they have you by the balls for life.

Someday I'm you'll right with the doom and gloom. Someday a meteor will likely hit Earth again. I've never seen people so paranoid about a dev/distributor being too good. Is it cause everyone else in gaming wants to or has screwed the consumer with a pointy stick?
 
Actually he's kinda right you know.
The fact that so much estate is used for brands such as MW doesn't help certainly but really the interface is much less family friendly than say....NXE on the 360.
I don't know I just like colors.

When i read that store colors make it family friendly or not i don't want to live on this planet anymore.
 
Steam's logo is a hard, geometric, colourless symbol of power and metallic strength. The abundance of relatively meaningless stat information and graphs is typically a very masculine thing. The colours and shapes in the interface are also fairly masculine. The spacing and layout information is very dense, with dramatic black shadowy visuals for every area.

Amazon, Spotify, GOG, Apple, Google and even Play.com have design that doesn't look like the male equivalent of pink with flowered unicorns.

spotify_ui9yziy.png


This is not a gender neutral brand.

Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.
gog_uizrkdm.png


This is not a gender neutral brand.

Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.

Grey on grey on grey

This is a maaaans world....
 
30% is a lot compared to 5% he does (all costs included) on his own store. Why give 25% extra to someone else? People will buy Minecraft regardless, it does not need extra store.

Steam is very very expensive, and companies are using it because they have no choice.

In PC market, running your own store is between 5% and 10%, depending how much work you want to do - for 10%, everyone will do everything for you... for 5%, you can have your own store. For Minecraft volume, it is probably less than 5%, all inclusive.

And for 25% difference, they can hire 10 other people to work on the game, etc, etc.
 
I do remember thinking when we went from green steam to black steam that the new interface oozed a bit more of 15 year old boy CS clan homepage but in a good looking kind of way. The old one felt more like neutral PC software.

This reminds me of how much i miss the old UI

There doesn't really seem to be a point to Notch putting Minecraft on steam, atleast not now when it is big enough to support itself. It feels a bit like Blizzard putting games on steam.
 
One other thing I've noticed. Like Notch is a trailblazer in many respects, he shouldn't frame his decision in respects of Steam's place in the market but rather his own. Maybe he could have just said "we're doing well on our own and I believe I could be the inspiration for other devs to follow in my footsteps". Perhaps in a less pretentious way.

Notch's influence is significant. SCE Execs were trying to understand the phenomena shortly after Minecraft went viral. A lot of eyes are on Notch, and I think he shouldn't be afraid to be a role model for future indies. Going XBLA and Steam shouldn't be the only route.
 
i don't think there's much question that steam caters primarily to men, given that the target audience for most of the games available on steam is men. this (at least right now) appears to be just a business decision, as these games sell the most - if their primary interest was attracting women to the platform, in theory things would be set up differently, even if it was as simple as featuring games targeted as women, as opposed to those they think will sell the most.

this might be a long-term problem for the growth of the platform. i don't know much about business.

Somehow, I think girls will be able to get over an interface that isn't just a bunch of frilly shades of pink. It will take time, but I think they can do it.
 
As a developer I wish that Steam wasn't so important in the gaming space.

It's a great shame that all the competition are so weak, with even Microsoft dropping the ball on an integrated store, and Amazon fumbling stuff somewhat. Right now the second best option for sales is actually the Mac App Store, which isn't even on Windows. I really like GOG's service, and would love to see other stores ran in a similar manner.

Steam 'fandom' is pretty gross at times, and certainly the 'identity' of the store with its dudebro grey application skin can be offputting to some potential customers. However perhaps that really is the face of PC games.

Steam is as important as it deserves to be. Its the other companies issues with providing decent counterservices that is the problem. Hell there was a long time when steam was reviled. MS fucked up with GFWL.
 
It's amazing seeing people twist the conception of monopoly to fit whatever they think is happening in PC gaming scene.
Folks, go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

and here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law

If you're still not sure why people are becoming frustrated with this, please open up a thread on OT regarding monopoly, oligopoly, other forms of imperfect competition, competition law, and/or antitrust and I'll be happy to participate.
 
Um, that TotalBiscuit mailbag video is so weird. I always thought he was a reasonable person. He's mad that people are playing too much TF2? Everything Valve has ever done has a sinister edge? Its terrifying how convenient and useful Steam is?

I mean, come on.

Nah him and wendi arent paranoid, they see the writing on the wall. they warned us about amazing f2p models and steamworks integration and 30%.

Of course when asked how they'd do a distribution platform they either got nothing or they have confused pipedreams.
 
Somehow, I think girls will be able to get over an interface that isn't just a bunch of frilly shades of pink. It will take time, but I think they can do it.
i didnt mention color anywhere in my post. did you mean to quote someone else?

in the context of my post a rebuttal of this nature would be "Somehow, I think girls will be able to get over not liking Call of Duty as much as teenage boys," which, in the context of a long-term business plan, is probably not going to be the winning strategy.

this is as much (or more) a problem with the industry as it is with steam, though. if the biggest releases continue to be aimed primarily at men (likely for the foreseeable future) and steam continues to promote the biggest releases (likely for as long as valve likes money), the steam store homepage will continue pretty much the way it is.
 
steamdude.png


This is not a gender neutral brand.

Compared to the iOS / Android or Mac store, or even the Nintendo eShop, or Amazon... this looks like it is designed for a 17 year old boy. It might as well come with press on tribal tattoos. The dark grey background is part of it, but also the layout and style of images used throughout. Even stupid stuff like the stat boxes and graphs are overtly male.

I would love to check out the male:female ratio of Steam users to see if this can be proven right or wrong.
 
Gabe and Notch both worried about something they probably shouldn't be. They can be BFF.

Gabe is worried about MS and Windows. Notch is worried about Valve and Steam.
 
I do remember thinking when we went from green steam to black steam that the new interface oozed a bit more of 15 year old boy CS clan homepage but in a good looking kind of way. The old one felt more like neutral PC software.

This reminds me of how much i miss the old UI


There doesn't really seem to be a point to Notch putting Minecraft on steam, atleast not now when it is big enough to support itself. It feels a bit like Blizzard putting games on steam.

Man, I almost forgot what it looked like.
 
Except he already did that to sell to another market, the 360. There are people on Steam that won't buy games anywhere else. I know this is stupid, but I think in the long run he would get more sales and bigger profits by hitching to Valve's wagon.
360 isn't just another market, it's an entirely different (closed) platform. Not really the same thing, Steam users can buy Minecraft already if they want, 360 owners couldn't.
 
I love reading threads where people who have most likely never run a business, owned a business, sold anything, applied for licenses etc. speak so eloquently, knowledgeable, and confident about monopolies and business strategy.
 
I've got to admit that I don't understand the negativity about steam. Yes you can buy games from them, and yes it can be used as a DRM, but at least it's a DRM with pretty reasonable goals and it provides you with other services, like automatic updating, social networking, finding online games to play with friends, easy installation, and easy ways to check if a game is working or missing files. To be honest though, I'd prefer to buy a game from where it's cheapest or where I know the developer will get more(depending on how much I think I'll like the game), be it steam, direct from the developer(like minecraft), a humble bundle, GMG, or wherever. Being able to activate a game on steam for ease of installation (I don't even need to be there to install it) is a bonus if it's available.
 
Um, that TotalBiscuit mailbag video is so weird. I always thought he was a reasonable person. He's mad that people are playing too much TF2? Everything Valve has ever done has a sinister edge? Its terrifying how convenient and useful Steam is?

I mean, come on.

He rambles on a bit, but he's not wrong. Thing is, we don't know if he's right either. I definitely think that his opinion is valid. I've been doing a lot of buying on Steam recently, usually around sale time, but from here on out I'm going to do my best to

1) buy directly from developer websites.

Sure it may cost a little bit more, but I'd rather they get the extra 25% to put back into the game than have it go to Steam.

2) buy from other digital distributors if possible.

I was using Impulse before it switched over to GameStop. I'm looking at Desura now as a back-up to Steam. The overall quality of the titles seems lower, but they've got a good Indy market going on.


Having more choices is never a bad thing. It keeps all parties interested in wooing the consumers. Steam is bordering on a social network site, meaning that more and more people are going there to put their feet up. Just like multiplat games on home consoles, people always ask which version is the best one to get. The majority of the time the answer is "get whichever one your friends are playing." If all of your friends are on Steam playing TF2 and Dota (both of which are now f2P services that you can only get on Steam - nowhere else,) then it's a safe bet that's where you'll be as well. Steam is so big now, that they can eat the costs on those games because they encourage and attract people to their service.

So TB is saying, how can other distribution services compete with that? Is Steam bad because they have two really good games with high-production values and constant support that you can play for free? No. Are they evil because they throw out massive sales 2-3 times a year? No. But it makes it very hard for other services to compete and at this rate - Steam may be the only thing left standing in a few years.

The other thing TB was saying is that once Steam has you coming to their site regularly and buying their games - a lot of customers won't leave. It's true. The more you have invested socially, monetarily, and time-wise - the less likely you are to leave because you "lose" all of that. (In the case of your games, you lose access to all of the ones you bought on that service.) So if you do reach that point where Steam is the main (or only) player and you don't dare leave them because of your investments - then YOU are at their mercy. Sure, they may play the benevolent Patrician and take care of their customers but if they don't would you be willing to toss every game you bought on the service out in order to switch? Like I said, it's all about having choices - the more you have, the better off you are. If that means sometimes paying a little bit more then I'm willing to float the cost - especially if it goes to the devs making the games I like to play.

It's a pretty dicey picture and honestly, it sets off a lot of alarms in my head. You can't blame them for running their business in a way that makes money for them, but you as the consumer should be aware of what your continued patronage may spell for YOU in the future.
 
I am so glad I clicked on this thread again, seriously. Complaining that Steam's design is dudebro is new for me. You don't usually see many new things after being on the internet for a few years.
 
1) buy directly from developer websites.

Sure it may cost a little bit more, but I'd rather they get the extra 25% to put back into the game than have it go to Steam.

2) buy from other digital distributors if possible.

I was using Impulse before it switched over to GameStop. I'm looking at Desura now as a back-up to Steam. The overall quality of the titles seems lower, but they've got a good Indy market going on.

Honestly, these are probably the best two things you can do, the only problem I've seen so far is that not very many other gaming services hit the same social networking milestone as Steam, and not just in user presence, there's gifting, a decent chat system, social networking groups, they're getting reviews and recommendations from friends on games, screenshots, comparison of games owned with friends, joining friends' games, etc. It's just too handy with all those things.

I've been trying out Desura myself, and honestly I really like it for modding and following some indie games I enjoy, but I can't seem to find anywhere near the social side of the coin that steam has, I couldn't find a friends list, no p2p chat or anything, now maybe I'm not looking hard enough but that's something that might be holding it back a little as anything other than a DD store and launcher. However, I've also been using Evolve which I find can more than satisfy my needs for social networking, provided there were enough people using it. It tracks my in game time, adds games on the fly as you play them, can take screenshots, video capture, has a good chat system, allows you to create VPNs with friends to play games like Minecraft and Terraria instead of using Hamachi, and a fair bit more. Still has the problem of being yet another program open eating up resources during my gaming time. However, I still feel like, by using it and supporting it somewhat, that I am helping to create reasonable competition for Valve to better their services.
 
He rambles on a bit, but he's not wrong. Thing is, we don't know if he's right either. I definitely think that his opinion is valid. I've been doing a lot of buying on Steam recently, usually around sale time, but from here on out I'm going to do my best to

1) buy directly from developer websites.

Sure it may cost a little bit more, but I'd rather they get the extra 25% to put back into the game than have it go to Steam.

2) buy from other digital distributors if possible.

I was using Impulse before it switched over to GameStop. I'm looking at Desura now as a back-up to Steam. The overall quality of the titles seems lower, but they've got a good Indy market going on.


Having more choices is never a bad thing. It keeps all parties interested in wooing the consumers. Steam is bordering on a social network site, meaning that more and more people are going there to put their feet up. Just like multiplat games on home consoles, people always ask which version is the best one to get. The majority of the time the answer is "get whichever one your friends are playing." If all of your friends are on Steam playing TF2 and Dota (both of which are now f2P services that you can only get on Steam - nowhere else,) then it's a safe bet that's where you'll be as well. Steam is so big now, that they can eat the costs on those games because they encourage and attract people to their service.

So TB is saying, how can other distribution services compete with that? Is Steam bad because they have two really good games with high-production values and constant support that you can play for free? No. Are they evil because they throw out massive sales 2-3 times a year? No. But it makes it very hard for other services to compete and at this rate - Steam may be the only thing left standing in a few years.

The other thing TB was saying is that once Steam has you coming to their site regularly and buying their games - a lot of customers won't leave. It's true. The more you have invested socially, monetarily, and time-wise - the less likely you are to leave because you "lose" all of that. (In the case of your games, you lose access to all of the ones you bought on that service.) So if you do reach that point where Steam is the main (or only) player and you don't dare leave them because of your investments - then YOU are at their mercy. Sure, they may play the benevolent Patrician and take care of their customers but if they don't would you be willing to toss every game you bought on the service out in order to switch? Like I said, it's all about having choices - the more you have, the better off you are. If that means sometimes paying a little bit more then I'm willing to float the cost - especially if it goes to the devs making the games I like to play.

It's a pretty dicey picture and honestly, it sets off a lot of alarms in my head. You can't blame them for running their business in a way that makes money for them, but you as the consumer should be aware of what your continued patronage may spell for YOU in the future.

You can use the Steam platform without having to buy all your games from them. You can add any exe to your library.

Honestly I don't get the argument at all. People buy from Steam because their system for redownloading games is simple and hassle free and their prices are competitive. Nobody is forced to buy their games from Steam because they play TF2. If the service wasn't good, people wouldn't use it.
 
http://www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/

Apart from the colours, how is the design of this website radically different from http://store.steampowered.com? Are the straight lines and large number of boxes not masculine in this situation?

Colors are part of the design, so you can't really take that out. And you're telling me that if you couldn't read english you would have no idea which site was advertising for men and which for women?

Black, grey, sans serif typefaces, fair number of images with badass looking guys compared to white, pink, serif typefaces and lots of images of women.

Gender neutral these pages aren't. They're so cliched. Dark and cool for the guys, frilly and pink for the girls.
 
The more sites, credentials, DRM systems/server dependencies, clients, community platforms and limits to downloads/installations I have to deal with, the less games I´m likely to buy. Developers who doesn´t want their games on Steam needs to adress those issues if they want me as a customer.
 
I've voiced my concerns about the integration of community and distribution platforms in general, and about the dominant position of Steam in particular, before here on GAF. I'm happy to see that at least some people in the industry agree.
 
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