Support NeoGAF

[Kano on the Phone]

When did I say or imply that men have experienced either?

Lol, victim complex. I applaud your use of carefully packaged phrases that don't really contribute much to the topic at hand.

I'm not acting victimized, nor am I seeing many men in here that are. We just want this "equality" that everyone says they are for, but that very few people actually argue in favor of.


I didn't forget, my line of thinking just hasn't changed.

I'm well aware that they're men. This isn't a men vs women thing, it's an ideology vs ideology thing. The gender of the person who says it doesn't matter.

You mean like flying off about some "eye for an eye" thing no one ever said or hinted at? Men already have privilege, there isn't some lack of equality there in any way, shape, or form.

Nah, it definitely happens. You think any of the pastors/teachers/boy scout leaders/etc out there genuinely trying to help youth like being treated like boy touchers?

No, but most of that is because that kind of thing tends to happen. That isn't men being treated badly, it's bad apples in certain positions of authority ruining it for everyone else. You really think this is a case of an entire gender being treated as inferior?

Dude relates a story (which apparently happens on airlines as a part of policy) and you decide to go full attack? Way to keep a decent conversation going.

He said that in response to me calling "Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue?" a factually incorrect statement. Saying it happened once doesn't prove it always happens, so it was a dismissive response to a lame and hyperbolic statement.

 

[Fenderputty]

Well many of the laws were written at a time in which women were the general caretaker and sacrificed their careers to stay at home. So all of that time they could have spent working and advancing and making money for themselves was put on hold. So in a divorce they would essentially take the kids and care for them, like they had done previously, while the man would be the "check." Different houses, essentially the same roles. It's only recently that many women work and balance care taking instead of just staying home. In a lot of cases though women still bear the brunt of being the one to sacrifice their career to take care of the children, also known as the "housewife." So the laws haven't had much reason to change nor have they been successfully lobbied by fathers/men who want to see them change. As much as some men find them unfair, plenty of men would rather work and have someone else take care of their kids. So this problem remains.

It's different state by state as well. So the levels of "wonkyness" varies. The divorce laws in Cali are pretty skewed though. I just know that if my wife cheats on me, she shouldn't get a penny of my money moving forward regardless of who was the breadmaker (my wife works, I'm just using this as an example of what I would consider to be unfair). I would agree that everything prior to her infedelity would be community property though. I would also be more than willing to take on the responsibility of my child and feel that in such a situation should be able to do so. She's the selfish one in this scenario who was willing to put her desires above that of the families.

 

[Fugu]

One thing I dont understand is why the mothers seem to get custody most of the time in divorces.

Because divorce laws are sexist and assume that the woman will stay at home and take care of the children while the man provides.

 

[lopaz]

A question for the posters who are outing themselves as "MR" advocates (lopaz, the OP, etc.): are you anti-feminism?

In it's modern form since the 'third wave', emphatically yes.

My favourite part is when the claim is made that men need more role models in education. Holy shit.

There is a severe shortage of male teachers in primary education in my country. It is seen as a womens' area.

Higher education too, has been infected with feminist leanings in many subjects

 

[Ein Soph Aur]

My take on these issues:

Divorce

If there is such a thing as infinite alimony, it really needs to go away. This isn't really a men's issue though, it just happen to affect mostly men as they are generally earning more in these cases.

Adoption

Of course unwed men and women should have equal rights in adoption issues, this is a no-brainer.

Child custody

The idea that the mother of a child is better than the father is pretty sexist. Thing should be equal here too.

Family law and parental leave

It does make sense that women have a longer leave than men, as they undergo a really tough physical and psychological ordeal for many, many months. With that said, fathers should get more time with their children.

Paternity fraud

A simple solution would just be to make DNA-testing mandatory and just part of the process in hospitals.

Military conscription

Either women and men are to be conscripted, or neither are.

Allegations of rape

I disagree with the naming of any accused before we've determined whether or not they aer guilty, so this is again something I could get behind.

What about circumcision?

 

[Locke_211]

How about the recent story about men not being allowed to sit next children on planes?

Would people still say that's due to patriarchal privileges backfiring? If so, how?

 

[victreeb3l]

Just look up mens rights on reddit, it's a cesspool.

99% of the subreddits are a cesspool

 

[squidyj]

You mean like flying off about some "eye for an eye" thing no one ever said or hinted at? Men already have privilege, there isn't some lack of equality there in any way, shape, or form.



No, but most of that is because that kind of thing tends to happen. That isn't men being treated badly, it's bad apples in certain positions of authority ruining it for everyone else. You really think this is a case of an entire gender being treated as inferior?



He said that in response to me calling "Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue?" a factually incorrect statement. Saying it happened once doesn't prove it always happens, so it was a dismissive response to a lame and hyperbolic statement.

There was a news article about an ongoing corporate policy. Do you believe they only applied the policy in a single incident?

 

[Metrotab]

My favourite part is when the claim is made that men need more role models in education. Holy shit.

I agree that issues in family law exist and need to be rectified. What is silly is that this is framed as an issue of men's rights as if this is a thing that needs a distinct and opposite movement to Feminism. The issues in family law related to divorce and parental custody are borne of the sexism that Feminism strives to fight and prevent. It is important to remember that the patriarchy has negative consequences for men as well, and these are some of them.

...Of course, if you actually believe that men are undereducated and lacking in role models, you may just be ignorant and Feminism, indeed, will have nothing to provide you.

I think the main crux of the issue is that many people feel feminist movements don't particularly pay as much attention to family law issues as much as they usually do with the standard subjects of rape and domestic violence, and if they pay attention, it only happens in closed academic circles rather than in the 'public eye'.

 

[Mudkips]

But I feel like that would just be a part of reforming the way divorce is handled in general. Like, do we really need a men's rights movement to do that?

Considering how stacked the family and even criminal courts are against men, and how the typical response whenever anyone brings it up is "LOL MEN'S RIGHTS", yes. Yes we do.

 

[Veezy]

Yes. Why do you think politicians, who are mostly white Christian males, give so much of a shit about abortion, birth control, and pre-marital sex?

Exactly.

The statistical reality on both a global scale and a national scale, speaking of the US, is that men, especially Caucasian, Heterosexual, Christian (in the us, your dominant religion here) men, have life substantially easier than Women of any form.

It's not even up for debate. What happens is that men perceive the statement of injustice as an attack against them for having a particular privilege rather than it being just an observation of reality. In addition, they feel as if balancing the scales will make things harder for them.

In their attempt to find something to outrage about, they invent or exaggerate problems that are either slight/non prevalent or they attack things that would, if made equal or focused on, would actually benefit them as well.

Some examples:

1. Women make less than men, on average, when both serve in the same position. This is a fact. However, women are becoming increasingly more and more breadwinners in households. If we made it a law that women must be paid the same as men, if both are doing the same position everything else equal, it would actually help men out as women who have men in their households would have more income for the family. There's also the side effect of it helping the economy, but I shouldn't' need to mention that.

2. Rape culture in America. The reality is false rape claims are nowhere near as prevalent as most men think they are. However, due to the hand waiving of victim blaming, a huge portion of women don't come forward. This, in turn, effects men who get raped who will not come forward because of how society would treat them. Surely, if a woman is treated as trash if she is raped what would happen to the men?! Let's not forget rape in prison. Of course, discussing and working towards ending rape culture is just a crazy man hating feminist ideal, right?

3. The abortion example posted earlier.


It's just a silly idea that a "mens' rights movement" even needs to exist. Fighting against singular problems I understand, but to say that mens' rights, as a whole, are being trampled upon is just dishonest. There are some issues, but overall being a man is still pretty good in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Simplet]

He's saying that the notion that men have somehow been systematically disenfranchised to the point where there needs to be a movement to support their fundamental human rights is ridiculous. We have patriarchal social structures that disenfranchise men as well, but MRA is something completely different.

That's not what he's saying, he's saying that the very idea of men's rights is ridiculous. He wasn't responding to someone claiming that men have been "systematically disenfranchised", he's just been dismissing the whole notion of men advocating for their rights.

 

[computers putin']

It's like trying to form a whites rights group, just don't do it.

pretty much my feelings on this lol.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

What about circumcision?

I heard that's a thread killer, so I won't get into that.

 

[Gaborn]

Wow dude, you'd have someone pay Alimony for 16 years if they were only married to the mother 5? Not child support that's different. Alimony? Good god.

Absolutely. Look at how much single mothers are struggling in the US and how common it is. I think it's ENTIRELY rational to give people an incentive to stay together if they have children.

 

[pigeon]

Another way of saying you haven't thoroughly researched your position. You simply align yourself with people you feel are of the right sort politically

That's more or less exactly not what I said, but thanks for clarifying what "examining your assumptions" means to you -- not that I didn't already have a pretty good guess on that.

 

[Zilch]

Considering how stacked the family and even criminal courts are against men, and how the typical response whenever anyone brings it up is "LOL MEN'S RIGHTS", yes. Yes we do.

haha it does NOT surprise me that this poster is coming out as an MRA.

 

[Devolution]

That's not what he's saying, he's saying that the very idea of men's rights is ridiculous. He wasn't responding to someone claiming that men have been "systematically disenfranchised", he's just been dismissing the whole notion of men advocating for their rights.

The thing is the vast majority of "men's rights" sentiments are shouted from the roof tops by disgusting people. This is just me being brutally honest.

 

[freenudemacusers]

He said that in response to me calling "Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue?" a factually incorrect statement. Saying it happened once doesn't prove it always happens, so it was a dismissive response to a lame and hyperbolic statement.

Eh, your response was much more hyperbolic than his.

 

[lopaz]

Exactly.

The statistical reality on both a global scale and a national scale, speaking of the US, is that men, especially Caucasian, Heterosexual, Christian (in the us, your dominant religion here) men, have life substantially easier than Women of any form.

It's not even up for debate. .

"It's not even up for debate". Classic.

I'm disappointed at the edit to the opening post.

 

[ronito]

Absolutely. Look at how much single mothers are struggling in the US and how common it is. I think it's ENTIRELY rational to give people an incentive to stay together if they have children.

Can't the free market just take care of them?

 

[Fugu]

There is a severe shortage of male teachers in primary education in my country. It is seen as a womens' area.

Higher education too, has been infected with feminist leanings in many subjects

I'll be sure to inform the male athletes, scientists, politicians, musicians, artists, and executives that their majority stake in the spotlight is now irrelevant because we've lost the primary educators.

Yes, infected with Feminist leanings. Sort of how physics has been infected with math.

I think the main crux of the issue is that many people feel feminist movements don't particularly pay as much attention to family law issues as much as they usually do with the standard subjects of rape and domestic violence, and if they pay attention, it only happens in closed academic circles rather than in the 'public eye'.

I agree with the notion that not much attention is focused on these issues by Feminists. However, I think that's largely because Feminism is an indistinct and wide-encompassing force that is better served tackling indistinct and wide-encompassing issues, like the pay gap and rape culture.

 

[Jado]

A question for the posters who are outing themselves as "MR" advocates (lopaz, the OP, etc.): are you anti-feminism?

No, I'm not anti-feminist.

I'll be sure to inform the male athletes, scientists, politicians, musicians, artists, and executives that their majority stake in the spotlight is now irrelevant because we've lost the primary educators.

Why did you rattle off a list of professions that mostly comprise a very, very tiny percent of highly-paid individuals relative to the entire male population?

 

[Dennis]

Considering how stacked the family and even criminal courts are against men, and how the typical response whenever anyone brings it up is "LOL MEN'S RIGHTS", yes. Yes we do.

True

 

[Timedog]

Why not skip the part about the document? In other words, absolutely, a woman has a right to her own body, and a right to decide whether to get an abortion. Why does she also have a claim to the father's paycheck if he doesn't want the baby? While it's not a position I agree with, that seems more "progressive" than what we have now, and more realistic than your suggestion.

Some women don't want to have abortions, and that's fine. If you did not agree on responsibility before the fact, you should not be able to say "I don't want to support my child" after the fact. It still is half your child, and it's not the child's fault that you neglected to have that discussion before creating him/her. If you had that discussion though, and agreed to abort, and the female changes her mind, there should be a legal framework for absolving responsibility. If you had that discussion and you knew she wasn't into abortion, and you still assumed that risk, you're a dumbass and you need to support that kid.

 

[TUROK]

You mean like flying off about some "eye for an eye" thing no one ever said or hinted at? Men already have privilege, there isn't some lack of equality there in any way, shape, or form.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Some women don't want to have abortions, and that's fine. If you did not agree on responsibility before the fact, you should not be able to say "I don't want to support my child" after the fact. It still is half your child, and it's not the child's fault that you neglected to have that discussion before creating him/her. If you had that discussion though, and agreed to abort, and the female changes her mind, there should be a legal framework for absolving responsibility. If you had that discussion and you knew she wasn't into abortion, and you still assumed that risk, you're a dumbass and you need to support that kid.

Right, but in both cases it is the kid that is "punished" so to speak.

 

[Devolution]

Can we just discuss issues men face without the argument of whether a movement is or isn't necessary?

Fuck.

Right, but in both cases it is the kid that is "punished" so to speak.

The odds of such a kid being born would go down significantly if we had better sex ed, subsidized birth control and better living conditions for the working poor.

 

[squidyj]

The thing is the vast majority of "men's rights" sentiments are shouted from the roof tops by disgusting people. This is just me being brutally honest.

I wish it wasn't true but I've been pretty discouraged by the same groups, reading articles that devolve into "it's all feminism's fault" is frustrating and disheartening.

Right, but in both cases it is the kid that is "punished" so to speak.

unless there is some organized third party to step in, a massive collective perhaps.

 

[Fugu]

Why did you rattle off a list of professions that mostly comprise a very, very tiny percent of highly-paid individuals relative to the entire male population?

Because we're talking about role models. Specifically, I was referencing the visibility of males in athletics, the arts and business relative to their female counterparts.

 

[Esch]

No, but most of that is because that kind of thing tends to happen. That isn't men being treated badly, it's bad apples in certain positions of authority ruining it for everyone else. You really think this is a case of an entire gender being treated as inferior?

No, i do not. I am not a "men's rights advocate", sheathe your sword. I do think that a lot of men, and in fact YOUTH, suffer from the decreased lack of involvement of men in their lives. In a parental sense and otherwise.

Can we just discuss issues men face without the argument of whether a movement is or isn't necessary?

Fuck.

this, jesus tapdancing christ superstar

 

[Simplet]

The thing is the vast majority of "men's rights" sentiments are shouted from the roof tops by disgusting people. This is just me being brutally honest.

......

That's a really interesting opinion you have here...

Did I tell you about my cousin who believe all feminists really need to get laid?

 

[Devolution]

......

That's a really interesting opinion you have here...

Did I tell you about my cousin who believe feminists really need to get laid?

Opinion? Link me to a positive group that doesn't devolve into women/feminist bashing.

 

[Sub_Level]

I'm relatively young (21), but to me it seems pretty obvious that more is expected of men than women outside of raising children, at least in the Western world.

You're expected to just be a man and deal with any inequalities that exist. If I complain then I'm a whiner who can't handle the realities of life or my views are put on some sort of equivalency with Saudi Arabian policies with respect to women.

It also seems to me that women just tend to have more happy and relaxed lives. Which gender gets laid more? There's more nets to catch a girl if she falls, like support groups and a more-often-than-not wider social circle.

I personally don't think it's fair, and I realize that women also still get the short end of the stick on a lot of stuff too (society really needs to push women more and more into hard sciences since college statistics show that they're more than capable of being academically successful, perhaps moreso than men). Just treat everyone as an individual as much as you can.

Some of these inequalities are caused by men themselves too, like military conscription. Men volunteer for that kind of thing.

 

[Fenderputty]

The thing is the vast majority of "men's rights" sentiments are shouted from the roof tops by disgusting people. This is just me being brutally honest.

I hated Tom Lycus as well.

 

[lopaz]

I wish it wasn't true but I've been pretty discouraged by the same groups, reading articles that devolve into "it's all feminism's fault" is frustrating and disheartening.

unless there is some organized third party to step in, a massive collective perhaps.

The movement is in its infancy. Give it time.

 

[Gaborn]

Can't the free market just take care of them?

As far as I'm concerned a "free market' response was eliminated the moment any single mother applied for various welfare programs to care for their child. You made it, you care for it with them or you help them pay for it enough so taxpayers don't have to. Or, wrap it up and use a fucking condom.

 

[Veezy]

"It's not even up for debate". Classic.

I'm disappointed at the edit to the opening post.

Explain to me, in no uncertain terms, how it not easier to be a man in the world than it is to be a woman. Now, explain to me, in no uncertain terms, how it is not easier to be a man in the United States of America than it is to be a woman.

Or are suggesting that during some of my learning I had crazy feminist ideals pumped into me.

Don't hand wave the argument. Explain yourself.

 

[Timedog]

Right, but in both cases it is the kid that is "punished" so to speak.

Kids are punished for a million and a half choices their parents choose to make. The parent is making the choice to "punish" the kid. It happens all the time.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Which gender gets laid more?

Do lesbians have more sex than gay men?

 

[Simplet]

Opinion? Link me to a positive group that doesn't devolve into women/feminist bashing.

I don't even care if such a group exists (hint : it probably does), this is not my argument. I'm arguing with the people dismissing the idea of men's rights. It's a stupid position to take.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I'm relatively young (21), but to me it seems pretty obvious that more is expected of men than women outside of raising children, at least in the Western world.

You're expected to just be a man and deal with any inequalities that exist. If I complain then I'm a whiner who can't handle the realities of life or my views are put on some sort of equivalency with Saudi Arabian policies with respect to women.

You should talk to some feminists. You may be interested in what they have to tell you about the patriarchy.

It also seems to me that women just tend to have more happy and relaxed lives. Which gender gets laid more?

What the fuck is this? Do you think women are going out to fuck robots or something?

 

[ronito]

As far as I'm concerned a "free market' response was eliminated the moment any single mother applied for various welfare programs to care for their child. You made it, you care for it with them or you help them pay for it enough so taxpayers don't have to. Or, wrap it up and use a fucking condom.

fair enough but isn't child support supposed to do that?
Alimony is support to be to help the ex get back on their feet and get established. Seems to me if you were married even 10 years paying another 11 years of alimony is a bit excessive. that means you've paid more money longer for your spouse to recover from your divorce than you were even married.
It seems to me that for someone that keeps a pretty staunch "bootstrap" approach to everything to come out and say "Alimony until the kid is 21. Are you kidding? Single moms need help!" is more than a little surprising.

I mean having to pay child support + alimony until the kid was 21 regardless of how long you were married would pretty much ensure that no man in his right mind would ever get married.

 

[Jenov]

The thing is contracts like that are explicitly void for public policy reasons, it's not her or his money, it's the child's. It can't be bargained away. Its a total non starter to even suggest.

Parents can't and shouldnt be able to wiggle their way out of it. The idea it's a legit thing to complain about is absurd. It's not some greedy person getting the money it's their damn kid

Bingo. I'm surprised it was even suggested. You can't just magically pretend you never made a child by signing your name on a paper and just letting the government pick up your part of the slack. That's awful, and plain out harmful to society to try and operate that way.

 

[abusori]

My take on these issues:

Divorce

If there is such a thing as infinite alimony, it really needs to go away. This isn't really a men's issue though, it just happen to affect mostly men as they are generally earning more in these cases.

Adoption

Of course unwed men and women should have equal rights in adoption issues, this is a no-brainer.

Child custody

The idea that the mother of a child is better than the father is pretty sexist. Thing should be equal here too.

Family law and parental leave

It does make sense that women have a longer leave than men, as they undergo a really tough physical and psychological ordeal for many, many months. With that said, fathers should get more time with their children.

Paternity fraud

A simple solution would just be to make DNA-testing mandatory and just part of the process in hospitals.

Military conscription

Either women and men are to be conscripted, or neither are.

Allegations of rape

I disagree with the naming of any accused before we've determined whether or not they aer guilty, so this is again something I could get behind.

Breath of fresh air after the rest of this thread. This and Devo's posts. Actual sane viewpoints.

I'll just close this and be happy there's still decent people bumping around.

 

[Karsticles]

Some women don't want to have abortions, and that's fine. If you did not agree on responsibility before the fact, you should not be able to say "I don't want to support my child" after the fact. It still is half your child, and it's not the child's fault that you neglected to have that discussion before creating him/her. If you had that discussion though, and agreed to abort, and the female changes her mind, there should be a legal framework for absolving responsibility. If you had that discussion and you knew she wasn't into abortion, and you still assumed that risk, you're a dumbass and you need to support that kid.

I feel like you're discussing two different questions:
1) Whether this is the fault of the child.
2) Whether the father ought to be held responsible against his wishes.

This is important because you say the following:
If you had that discussion though, and agreed to abort, and the female changes her mind, there should be a legal framework for absolving responsibility.

But, if you absolve responsibility of the father, you're still screwing the child over. You seem to be suggesting two values that necessarily conflict in this discussion.

The thing is the vast majority of "men's rights" sentiments are shouted from the roof tops by disgusting people. This is just me being brutally honest.

I wonder, if someone wrote this post about women's rights, if that person would still be a member here.

 

[Deified Data]

Absolutely. Look at how much single mothers are struggling in the US and how common it is. I think it's ENTIRELY rational to give people an incentive to stay together if they have children.

I have to disagree with the alimony as passive coersion angle...it's in the state's best interests for people to do or refrain from doing a lot of things, doesn't mean there should be a monetary penalty for going against the grain.

Child support takes care of the "single mother" (when it works...my mom never received a dime from my father, but she made it work). I just can't imagine any scenario where alimony (not child support) should extend more than a few years. If you can't find a way of supporting yourself (yourself, not your children) in 5 years, it starts to look more and more like her problem and not his. I'm totally in favor of alimony in certain scenarios, but not when it becomes a life-long "divorce tax".

 

[Devolution]

I don't even care if such a group exists (hint : it probably does), this is not my argument. I'm arguing with the people dismissing the idea of men's rights. It's a stupid position to take.

And where have I done this? My point is the people who talk about these issues in length tend to be misogynistic assholes. If you find a group focused on these issues they shift the blame away from the actual sources and onto women/feminists. So once again if someone can actually link me to a number of positive MRA groups to counter all of the horrible ones I've come across, their message remains clouded with hateful bullshit rhetoric.

I wonder, if someone wrote this post about women's rights, if that person would still be a member here.

Fuck. Again. Find me positive MRA groups. I dare you.

 

[Jado]

Can we just discuss issues men face without the argument of whether a movement is or isn't necessary?

Fuck.

This is pretty much why I didn't wanna start this thread myself. I knew this would happen. Hoping it calms down eventually. Thanks.

 

[s7evn]

What about circumcision?

Wrong thread?