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[BomberMouse]

What? Zwarte Piet is black face. You guys have parades every year celeberating Zwarte Piet. By which definition is that not a well known thing?

He is probably talking about the concept of "blackface" being, supposedly, a bad think.

 

[Always-honest]

Both.

No way. Blackface as an icon in movies, comics and animations has been well known in the Netherlands for a long ass time.

It's not about the color of the skin...

Check it out, Piets from last year:

Kids don't care about skincolor, they care about the fun, love and presents; being good.

this is NOT the way zwarte Pieten look. This could even be a photoshop.

But i DO agree that kids don' care how they look. So there isn't a reason to keep them black. But since they do a lot of chimney work ( some of them) there is some logic in the "roet" / carbon on faces. I see no harm in using just a bit though. Smudges. It wouldn't change one fucking thing in the tradition amd the kids would be just as happy.

 

[itsgreen]

He is probably talking about the concept of "blackface" being, supposedly, a bad think.

I think without exaggerating that >97% of Dutch people don't know what blackface is.

 

[Devolution]

I'm still waiting for the Afro and red lip explanation that removes this current tradition from its racist origin.

Stop being so judgmental and projecting your values.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

I think without exaggerating that >97% of Dutch people don't know what blackface is.

I know the first time I heard about blackface was on GAF.

 

[midonnay]

He is probably talking about the concept of "blackface" being, supposedly, a bad think.

exactly you need some context of hatred or ridicule to make the accusation....

otherwise you'll be calling black people or gay people racist or homophobic for using nigger and faggot.

Now if you don't mind, let's get back to answering the question of why so many people in this thread are so damn defensive over the suggestion of changing the face paint color for a children's holiday character that's not supposed to be black in the first place?

how come your Jesus is still white? and european?

or is it just tradition that has lasted 100s of years?

 

[itsgreen]

No way. Blackface as an icon in movies, comics and animations has been well known in the Netherlands for a long ass time.

If you ask 10 different people 'wat is blackface?' at least 9 wouldn't know.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

Stop it please. The main argument in this thread is over the character known as Zwarte Pieten and the claims of racism being made about the character by people in the youtube video posted in the OP.

Now if you don't mind, let's get back to answering the question of why so many people in this thread are so damn defensive over the suggestion of changing the face paint color for a children's holiday character that's not supposed to be black in the first place?

Why, is it a bad thing that the heroes of Sinterklaas are darkcollored??
Do you people know anything about Sinterklaas anno 2012 or do we only grab in the history?

 

[freenudemacusers]

I know the first time I heard about blackface was on GAF.

Well now you have a word for zwarte piet!

exactly you need some context of hatred or ridicule to make the accusation....

otherwise you'll be calling black people or gay people racist or homophobic for using nigger and faggot.

Are you saying people who use nigger and faggot in s familial manner have *no concept whatsoever* of the history of these words?

how come your Jesus is still white? and european?

or is it just tradition that has lasted 100s of years?

Ok lemme defend that..


....


...

 

[Arjen]

The word or the depiction?

I've talked about this subject with friends/ family whenever it comes on GAF.
If i say, "they compare it it to blackface", they'll say, with what??
And they're not dumb people.

 

[ShinHayase]

Oh great, the yearly thread were i'm labelled as racist and people shit over my childhood
This discussion has been done to death over the last years, and neither side will ever budge.
So i'm going to grab a bag of kruidnoten while blasting this
I'm celebrating with my parents and sister like every year, and on a seperate night with friends. I serioulsy love this holiday.

This.

 

[Stet]

Why, is it a bad thing that the heroes of Sinterklaas are darkcollored??
Do you people know anything about Sinterklaas anno 2012 or do we only grab in the history?

SINTERKLAAS 2012: PIET HARDER

 

[Devolution]

Not knowing that something is X doesn't mean it's not X. Christ. The logic abounds.

 

[Kreed]

how come your Jesus is still white? and european?

or is it just tradition that has lasted 100s of years?

Mind answering the questions that pertain to the issues in this thread? If you want to make a thread about Jesus and his portrayals throughout history, no one is stopping you.

 

[Always-honest]

If you ask 10 different people 'wat is blackface?' at least 9 wouldn't know.

That's the WORD. You do kow the difference between a word and an image, right?

I've talked about this subject with friends/ family whenever it comes on GAF.
If i say, "they compare it it to blackface", they'll say, with what??
And they're not dumb people.

Yeah, nobody knows the word.... It's an american word. But they kow the images..

 

[itsgreen]

I've talked about this subject with friends/ family whenever it comes on GAF.
If i say, "they compare it it to blackface", they'll say, with what??
And they're not dumb people.

Exactly the same for me.

People don't know blackface and there isn't some rooted troublesome past here with putting on black make-up.

 

[Devolution]

That's the WORD. You do kow the difference between a word and an image, right?

If we don't know what blackface is, it can't be blackface.

lol

I'm going to start using this to defend shit.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I think without exaggerating that >97% of Dutch people don't know what blackface is.

Blackface is the american term. Zwarte Piet is the Dutch term. They're the same thing.

 

[Kreed]

Why, is it a bad thing that the heroes of Sinterklaas are darkcollored??
Do you people know anything about Sinterklaas anno 2012 or do we only grab in the history?

That's the whole argument in the OP of this thread and what everyone has been arguing over for the past 6 or 12 pages. Feel free to read the many issues that have been brought up by many posters in this thread yourself, I'm not going to summarize them for you.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

Mind answering the questions that pertain to the issues in this thread? If you want to make a thread about Jesus and his portrayals throughout history, no one is stopping you.

Mind answering if you have the slightest idea how the Dutch celebrate Sinterklaas 2012?

 

[itsgreen]

Blackface is the american term. Zwarte Piet is the Dutch term. They're the same thing.

No. They are nothing alike.

 

[midonnay]

Mind answering the questions that pertain to the issues in this thread? If you want to make a thread about Jesus and his portrayals throughout history, no one is stopping you.

missed the second line about tradition?

Are you saying people who use nigger and faggot in s familial manner have *no concept whatsoever* of the history of these words?

no that the context that they're using those words are no different in someone calling another "bro" or "brah".

so there isn't any hateful connotation.

You can't denigrate anothers culture because it "looks" racist

 

[Arjen]

I'm out, enjoy your high horses, I'll enjoy my favourite holiday.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Blackface is the american term. Zwarte Piet is the Dutch term. They're the same thing.

What's your definition of blackface?

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

That's the whole argument in the OP of this thread and what everyone has been arguing over for the past 6 or 12 pages. Feel free to read the many issues that have been brought up by many posters in this thread yourself, I'm not going to summarize them for you.

You don't like your heroes darkcolored?
That's racist!

 

[Aiii]

Stop it please. The main argument in this thread is over the character known as Zwarte Pieten and the claims of racism being made about the character by people in the youtube video posted in the OP.

Now if you don't mind, let's get back to answering the question of why so many people in this thread are so damn defensive over the suggestion of changing the face paint color for a children's holiday character that's not supposed to be black in the first place?

The point I was trying to make it's very easy to project your values on another culture and claim superiority and knowledge over them, its just not fair. We can never explain ourselves to you because you've already judged and condemned what you saw based on small samples. Things may not be as they seem. Your country is not full of conservative religious folks and we don't give a negative connotation to Zwarte Piet like you do. We've moved past that by changing what Piet represents instead of what he looks like.

But I'm willing to admit nothing I can post here will make you understand, for that you are too detached from us. And not a single post I make could explain it in a way you'd understand. Once again, not a judgement, but a simple fact. We might be similar as western societies, but we're still very different cultures and have very different values and ways of tackling matters like racial issues and much more.

But a said, I'll accept well never come to an agreement here, so why should any of us really bother, it's pointless really. It really is like we're talking about two completely different sides of the same coin here.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

No. They are nothing alike.

Face painted black. Big red lips. Afro. Subservient African character.

Yup, nothing alike.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

I'm out, enjoy your high horses, I'll enjoy my favourite holiday.

This, the argument is against people who absolutely don't know anything about current Sinterklaas. They only see colored people and they start to scream.

 

[ShinHayase]

Where this article goes wrong is that it perceives Zwarte Piet as a negative character, which in the children's eyes is not the case. In fact, kids love them, even more so than sinterklaas. Pieten hand them candy, play with them, perform acrobatics, give them the presents. Zwarte Piet is beloved, and if racial profiling is really part of his or hers (yes, Piet is multi gender) image, I contest that that image is negative. If anything, in that case, Piet would have a positive racial effect on children.

And this.

 

[itsgreen]

The point I was trying to make it's very easy to project you're values on another culture and claim superiority and knowledge over them, its just not fair. We can never explain ourselves to you because you've already judged and condemned what you saw based on small samples. Things may not be as they seem. Your country is not full of conservative religious folks and we don't give a negative connotation to Zwarte Piet like you do. We've moved past that by changing what Piet represents instead of what he looks like.

But I'm willing to admit nothing I can post here will make you understand, for that you are too detached from us. And not a single post I make could explain it in a way you'd understand. Once again, not a judgement, but a simple fact. We might be similar as western societies, but we're still very different cultures and have very different values and ways of tackling matters like racial issues and much more.

But a said, I'll accept well never come to an agreement here, so why should any of us really bother, it's pointless really. It really is like we're talking about two completely different sides of the same coin here.

You might even say, we are not the ones who are ignorant but the onlookers judging without throughly knowing Sinterklaas, Zwarte Piet and how they are experienced in The Netherlands...

 

[Always-honest]

I'm out, enjoy your high horses, I'll enjoy my favourite holiday.

A bit dissapointed in your answers to be honest. But enjoy Sinterklaas. I know i will.

This, the argument is against people who absolutely don't know anything about current Sinterklaas. They only see colored people and they start to scream.

To be fair, we grew up with it without really giiving this a second thought.

 

[Kreed]

Mind answering if you have the slightest idea how the Dutch celebrate Sinterklaas 2012?

Mind taking the time to read through this thread before asking questions that have already been answered?

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

Mind taking the time to read through this thread before asking questions that have already been answered?

So you don't know... That's a smart startingpoint...

 

[itsgreen]

Face painted black. Big red lips. Afro. Subservient African character.

Yup, nothing alike.

Zwarte Piet is a character. He is not perceived as a characterization of a black man.

So if you say black face is Zwarte Piet in Dutch it's utter bullshit. Modern Zwarte Piet doesn't have anything to do racist connotations...

 

[Slayven]

Why aren't their clothes dirty from going down chimneys?

 

[Stet]

Why aren't their clothes dirty from going down chimneys?

I asked that. Someone said they put them in a bag and go down in their underwear. And then put them back on without washing, for some reason.

 

[Htown]

I'm out, enjoy your high horses, I'll enjoy my favourite holiday.

Have fun at Ku Klux Klaas 2012!

 

[freenudemacusers]

no that the context that they're using those words are no different in someone calling another "bro" or "brah".

so there isn't any hateful connotation.

You can't denigrate anothers culture because it "looks" racist

So I'm confused why this is even an angle in this thread. There is a pretty big difference between a minority group 'reclaiming' a word vs a cultural majority taking a (historically racist) tradition and claiming either a) ignorance of its history or b) innocent fun.

And still waiting for the red lip and afro explanation.

 

[Arjen]

I'm out, enjoy your high horses, I'll enjoy my favourite holiday.

 

[itsgreen]

Why aren't their clothes dirty from going down chimneys?

How do they even fit in chimneys often not much bigger than a few inches... it's a childrens story.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

It must be really inspiring for black dutch children to know that the only famous black character in dutch culture is a dumb slave whose only purpose is to amuse the white kids.

Zwarte Piet is a character. He is not perceived as a characterization of a black man.

So if you say black face is Zwarte Piet in Dutch it's utter bullshit. Modern Zwarte Piet doesn't have anything to do racist connotations...

Looks like blackface. Dresses like blackface (or a caricature of a moor in this case). Acts like blackface.

But isn't blackface?

I don't buy it.

 

[Onemic]

You forgot about the current sutuation with no refernces towards the historicall history, which already been changed. this is only love, fun and presents.

Ow, you don't know? I thought so...

You also forgot about the part where the appearance is still exactly the same as it was in the past and thus is still a caricature of a black person.

 

[itsgreen]

You also forgot about the part where the appearance is still exactly the same as it was in the past and thus is still a caricature of a black person.

The concept of Zwarte Piet is just like a word. It has a container: in the case of Zwarte Piet the racist form, and a meaning how it is perceived. That meaning has changed over the last 100's of years but the container is still the same. So people don't experience that racist container as racist. So it isn't racist for the Dutch.

It's like the meaning of words can change or symbols.

It must be really inspiring for black dutch children to know that the only famous black character in dutch culture is a dumb slave whose only purpose is to amuse the white kids.

You just proved your ignorance since that is not what Zwarte Piet is.

 

[Always-honest]

I'm out, enjoy your high horses, I'll enjoy my favourite holiday.

On Wilders' lap, i assume

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

You also forgot about the part where the appearance is still exactly the same as it was in the past and thus is still a caricature of a black person.

It is not, plus it's not about wat is seen by the eye but what the character does and represents. Aiii said it quite well.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

It must be really inspiring for black dutch children to know that the only famous black character in dutch culture is a dumb slave whose only purpose is to amuse the white kids.

Because zwarte piet is the only Dutch black man to look up to? And why do black kids have to look up to black persons?

 

[freenudemacusers]

It is not, plus it's not about wat is seen by the eye but what the character does and represents. Aiii said it quite well.

The Dutch taking part in this must literally be wearing rose tinted glasses.

 

[midonnay]

So I'm confused why this is even an angle in this thread. There is a pretty big difference between a minority group 'reclaiming' a word vs a cultural majority taking a (historically racist) tradition and claiming either a) ignorance of its history or b) innocent fun.

why shouldn't it be?

Shouldn't context be the prevailing indicator whether the usage of a word is hateful?

otherwise we'll get a situation like a mayoral aide getting sacked because he used niggardly and offended people who thought he was denigrating black people.

Shouldn't we judge culture in the same light?

 

[Half and half]

I'm out, enjoy your high horses, I'll enjoy my favourite holiday.

Enjoy. Tell 'em old half-and-half said hi.

 

[soepje]

I really don't understand why this is such a big yearly event on gaf, who started THIS tradition? People don't get born racist, they learn it. Zware piet is not racist, he has nothing to do with black people. It's a character on its own, someone the dutchies n flemmish love and cherish. Why attack a lovable character and tell him he's racist? Zwarte piet is like a freaking Wall-E, no race, just sweet and bringing joy and happiness. There is really no harm done.

Its like me voting for an Asian beardless Santa in the US this year.