To be fair, the concepts of social rank, material posession (money, food, stones, tools, women (in the past, unfortunately women were often just posession) and jealousy are REALLY old. Like, stone age old.
Yes, in small groups only. Like I said, man is not made for groups >100.
A simple example which supports this thesis: crime goes up in bigger towns. Why? Because your fellow man is no longer seen as "Pete, the guy from around the corner" but just another faceless automaton you need not care about.
To be fair, the concepts of social rank, material posession (money, food, stones, tools, women (in the past, unfortunately women were often just posession) and jealousy are REALLY old. Like, stone age old.
To our current life style? Technically we should have. But it's not really an ideal system for everyone. These days it's all about encouraging technology degrees and that we should pursue it because it makes the most money.
Not everyone wants to do that and people are forced into differentiating roles to survive. Hence it causes more host of problems.
Also, we're most happier in nature and wish to go to naturalistic places on vacations. (usually)
Why else have most of our vacations wanting to go to a pristine place in the world?
I don't know, it just screams to me to return to a much simplistic life style.
Funnily enough, I've had the exact same thoughts. Although this is strictly speaking not true, because genetically, many of us may still be superior (intellect, fitness), we just got shafted with a trauma somewhere down the line. I'm a pretty smart and fairly good looking guy myself, if I may say so.
Although I'm not sure if there is such a thing as genetically caused depression too, what does the resident expert ITT (hi bagels!) say? Does all depression stem from childhood trauma?
intellect and fitness arent what make someone an APLHA
from what ive seen, more depressed people are introverts
the genetics that make depression more likely are clearly hereditary
theres no specific gene for depression afaik, unless you count whatever controls the chemical upset in the brain
well on the contrary you have a lot more free time and money
it would be nice if we could have a simple lobotomy to remove the part that makes us feel like sex is so important
Not alpha, no
But intellect and physical fitness are a huge part of what darwin meant with "survival of the fittest" - intelligent and strong people are fit to survive in harsh enviroments
Ironically, in todays society it's not about survival of the fittest anymore
Pretty much the only limiting factor whether your genes live on or not is sexual selection - whether the other sex wants you or not (assuming you don't die of an accident before reaching sexual maturity, which is pretty rare)
UChip is right - there's obviously a strong genetic component to (some forms of?) depression. It just looks more and more like the relationship is going to be very complex and span many, many genes. It's not going to be, say, a point mutation in a serotonin receptor.
People need to drop the ideas that we're not evolving, or that the "survival of the fittest" does not apply any more. Being "fit" has always been about your ability to propagate your genes in your environment. Our environment is just really weird now that we have basic sanitation and modern healthcare in large parts of the world (sorry, Canadians! Some day!). So, sure, we can get all sorts of people to reproductive age who formerly would have died long before that. conversely, people in the developed world are having fewer and fewer kids, by choice. But neither fact means that natural selection is a thing of the past (even if selection in the modern world doesn't seem terribly "natural").
And selection can be really odd - sickle cell and malaria is the classic example. I don't know if there's some kind of pressure that selects for morose, withdrawn, suicidal, ugly-feeling people, but the benefit of depression could be much more subtle, or act on some trait that we don't associate with depression (people who carry the sickle-cell trait are less susceptible to malaria, which is far from immediately obvious).
And UChip, if you want to make sex less important, it's usually not parts of your brain that people think about cutting off...
Does much good come of this thread, or is it just depressed members making themselves feel worse? Like a circle jerk of self-loathing? I always get so tired talking about this shit.
I think this thread is of good.
We really don't try to make our selves feel worse but help solve each other's problems and listen to each other.
Anyone is welcome (as long as you're considerate).
Yes, in small groups only. Like I said, man is not made for groups >100.
A simple example which supports this thesis: crime goes up in bigger towns. Why? Because your fellow man is no longer seen as "Pete, the guy from around the corner" but just another faceless automaton you need not care about.
I won't lie.
I wanted to abandon it all and just live a farmer's life somewhere in Thailand or Asia.
Seemed like the best way to escape a materialistic life style.
It's still a job where I'm closer to nature and a bit far off from urban life.
To our current life style? Technically we should have. But it's not really an ideal system for everyone. These days it's all about encouraging technology degrees and that we should pursue it because it makes the most money.
Not everyone wants to do that and people are forced into differentiating roles to survive. Hence it causes more host of problems.
Also, we're most happier in nature and wish to go to naturalistic places on vacations. (usually)
Why else have most of our vacations wanting to go to a pristine place in the world?
I don't know, it just screams to me to return to a much simplistic life style.
A few million years ago, you were forced into two roles: hunter or gatherer. Now we at least have more options. I wouldn't say we as a society struggle with being more restricted than in the past (because we're not), i anything we struggle with NOT being restricted at all. Humanity is used to struggle and being forced into roles and having authority tell us what we have to do, and under a forceful rule like that we know our place and HAVE our place, and make the best of it.
Now, noone tells us what to do. We can dl whatever we want. But we can't handle this choice, because what if we make the wrong one? Humanity can't handle too many choices. Studies have shown (I can find them i needed) that as soon as someone has more than a handful of options, they struggle and can't decide. Imagine: you have a choice between living in the mountains or at the ocean. Easy choice for most. If I told you you could live ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, you'd struggle to pick.
Too much freedom is bad for us, as counter-intuitive as it seems.
I'm not saying this is why people are depressed, but it's a factor, sometimes.
Another example are forced marriages. You're "assigned" a partner and you're forced to male the best of it. It sucks, but you don't have the struggle and consequences of trying to find a suitable partner/going through terrible breakups/questioning yourself whether your partner is the right one.
EDIT: this is compatible with the "small groups are better" theory too. Small group = defined roles, some things just NEED to be done, no room for lollygagging. Large groups = too much freedom.
heh
well depression itself makes you less appealing to people, and makes people less appealing to yourself.
its like an endless feedback loop that almost appears to be intended to take you out of the game.
I cant agree with depression being any kind of mental conditioning
If anything its made me more irritable and less capable of dealing with problems
what is the logic behind this theory?
A few million years ago, you were forced into two roles: hunter or gatherer. Now we at least have more options. I wouldn't say we as a society struggle with being more restricted than in the past (because we're not), i anything we struggle with NOT being restricted at all. Humanity is used to struggle and being forced into roles and having authority tell us what we have to do, and under a forceful rule like that we know our place and HAVE our place, and make the best of it.
Now, noone tells us what to do. We can dl whatever we want. But we can't handle this choice, because what if we make the wrong one? Humanity can't handle too many choices. Studies have shown (I can find them i needed) that as soon as someone has more than a handful of options, they struggle and can't decide. Imagine: you have a choice between living in the mountains or at the ocean. Easy choice for most. If I told you you could live ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, you'd struggle to pick.
Too much freedom is bad for us, as counter-intuitive as it seems.
I'm not saying this is why people are depressed, but it's a factor, sometimes.
Another example are forced marriages. You're "assigned" a partner and you're forced to male the best of it. It sucks, but you don't have the struggle and consequences of trying to find a suitable partner/going through terrible breakups/questioning yourself whether your partner is the right one.
EDIT: this is compatible with the "small groups are better" theory too. Small group = defined roles, some things just NEED to be done, no room for lollygagging. Large groups = too much freedom.
I would agree but the problem is we don't really get paid well for the things we want to do.
A perfect example of this is an artist that makes actual paintings. Most artists will barely get enough to even support the rent.
At that point they need to find some ridiculous inspiration and create the next Picasso, or go to different career opportunities.
As I said before, I want to become a farmer,but I'm not guaranteed on a living wage (and getting land is another problem) and no one says they'll actually buy my stuff.
If we were all guaranteed an actual liveable wage regardless of profession, I think things would be different.
People need to drop the ideas that we're not evolving, or that the "survival of the fittest" does not apply any more. Being "fit" has always been about your ability to propagate your genes in your environment. Our environment is just really weird now that we have basic sanitation and modern healthcare in large parts of the world (sorry, Canadians! Some day!). So, sure, we can get all sorts of people to reproductive age who formerly would have died long before that. conversely, people in the developed world are having fewer and fewer kids, by choice. But neither fact means that natural selection is a thing of the past (even if selection in the modern world doesn't seem terribly "natural").
I'd say the vast majority of people are capable of propagating their genes in today's environment in the first world, for most it's about choice (don't want kids because they cost too much or whatever), because the only two things you need to procreate are a) fertility and b) a partner.
You're right, selection is still at work (shame on me for wording that one wrong), but it's a "soft selection" for the most part - people don't stay childless because they die before procreating or something, they just have fewer children if they are less fit. Their genes still live on if they are unfit, they just aren't as prolific.
If someone was extremely unfit in the stone age (e.g. blind, crippled), chances are the sabretooth or whatever got them before they passed their genes.
I would agree but the problem is we don't really get paid well for the things we want to do.
A perfect example of this is an artist that makes actual paintings. Most artists will barely get enough to even support the rent.
At that point they need to find some ridiculous inspiration and create the next Picasso, or go to different career opportunities.
As I said before, I want to become a farmer,but I'm not guaranteed on a living wage (and getting land is another problem) and no one says they'll actually buy my stuff.
If we were all guaranteed an actual liveable wage regardless of profession, I think things would be different.
That's because overpopulation and society has artificially inflated the value of goods and stuff like rent. Imagine how much wealthier everyone would be if we could all live im peace and had nearly no defense spending. Or if we didn't charge a ridiculous amount of profit margin to drive the Lorenz curve (income distribution) even further away.
Sometimes, I feel like a communist. Too bad it's unrealistic.
Anyone try lithium?
This new nurse practitioner has got some balls suggesting I may have the genes for bi-polar (but not be bi-polar?) when it was never suggested in partial hospitalization.
I hate the ambiguity of diagnosing mental illness, relying on a patient's ability to assess their health when their ability to do so is compromised.
Of course both patients and doctors are susceptible to bias and judgment error.
Does much good come of this thread, or is it just depressed members making themselves feel worse? Like a circle jerk of self-loathing? I always get so tired talking about this shit.
Lithium is one of my next treatment options if things don't improve (for unipolar depression, they sometimes add it on top of an AD).
I haven't tried it yet, but it's serious stuff. If you take it as prescribed, get your levels checked, you're not going to die or anything, but the side effects can be bad. If things have not worked so far, it's something that a lot of people will eventually suggest. If you're up for it, by all means, give it a shot.
I have no idea what your NP means by "have the genes for bipolar disorder, but don't have bipolar disorder." First of all, what genes are we talking about? Second, why would you have the genes but not the disease?
Totally unrelated, but who ends their first post in a thread with, "oh, by the way, is this thread total shit?"
Lithium is one of my next treatment options if things don't improve (for unipolar depression, they sometimes add it on top of an AD).
I haven't tried it yet, but it's serious stuff. If you take it as prescribed, get your levels checked, you're not going to die or anything, but the side effects can be bad. If things have not worked so far, it's something that a lot of people will eventually suggest. If you're up for it, by all means, give it a shot.
I have no idea what your NP means by "have the genes for bipolar disorder, but don't have bipolar disorder." First of all, what genes are we talking about? Second, why would you have the genes but not the disease?
Totally unrelated, but who ends their first post in a thread with, "oh, by the way, is this thread total shit?"
Maybe he means he has a gene increasing the likelihood? Kinda like "I smoke, but I don't have cancer". Or a mutation in his p53 (bagels-bioknowledge-check)
Maybe he means he has a gene increasing the likelihood? Kinda like "I smoke, but I don't have cancer". Or a mutation in his p53 (bagels-bioknowledge-check)
I think maybe depression is linked to inhibiting the body from overreacting to stimuli. So "under pressure", you don't lash out and get yourself killed for it (by attacking a irritating foe, going on a euphoric rampage, etc).
And the insular part of depression that makes you more analytical or introspective helps with creativity probably. And everyone wants to get with a tortured creative genius!
Unfortunately, the side effect is that you can get lash-out bursts erupting from underneath that inhibition in the form of self-harm or suicide, or you can be locked into that mode and spiral into near catatonic levels of demotivation/inactivity.
It's kind of like autism as a spectrum disorder in a way? There is some level of genius or focus that can get unlocked so it's very beneficial in some ways, but people on the extreme end obviously will have huge problems functioning well in society.
So maybe.. some level of depression or intrinsic melancholy is "okay" and a person might just live that way their whole life in a frustrated but ultimately successful way on their own, but some levels go much deeper and require a lot of help and treatment.
Well, this thread has certainly gone places! So many things I want to respond to and stuff, but no time! Never enough time! Q___Q
I think maybe depression is linked to inhibiting the body from overreacting to stimuli. So "under pressure", you don't lash out and get yourself killed for it (by attacking a irritating foe, going on a euphoric rampage, etc).
And the insular part of depression that makes you more analytical or introspective helps with creativity probably. And everyone wants to get with a tortured creative genius!
Unfortunately, the side effect is that you can get lash-out bursts erupting from underneath that inhibition in the form of self-harm or suicide, or you can be locked into that mode and spiral into near catatonic levels of demotivation/inactivity.
It's kind of like autism as a spectrum disorder in a way? There is some level of genius or focus that can get unlocked so it's very beneficial in some ways, but people on the extreme end obviously will have huge problems functioning well in society.
So maybe.. some level of depression or intrinsic melancholy is "okay" and a person might just live that way their whole life in a frustrated but ultimately successful way on their own, but some levels go much deeper and require a lot of help and treatment.
I have no idea what your NP means by "have the genes for bipolar disorder, but don't have bipolar disorder." First of all, what genes are we talking about? Second, why would you have the genes but not the disease?
Totally unrelated, but who ends their first post in a thread with, "oh, by the way, is this thread total shit?"
I would think he means kind of like how some genes are dormant or recessive. There's a nurture vs. nature interplay going on with how and what genes get expressed. So it seems, based on my history and family history, this NP thinks I have the predisposition or likelihood of having a bi-polar episode. I don't really know; this is how I make sense of it.
Yeah, that would be an odd way to end a first post. Too bad I never implied this thread was shit, but instead asked if people find it beneficial. I typically feel worse when discussing depression because I find it depressing in and of itself. Notice how you attach a judgement to it, as even in the possibility this thread is not particularly helpful it is not then therefore "shit". It could just simply be depressed people venting.
I would think he means kind of like how some genes are dormant or recessive. There's a nurture vs. nature interplay going on with how and what genes get expressed. So it seems, based on my history and family history, this NP thinks I have the predisposition or likelihood of having a bi-polar episode. I don't really know; this is how I make sense of it.
Yeah, that would be an odd way to end a first post. Too bad I never implied this thread was shit, but instead asked if people find it beneficial. I typically feel worse when discussing depression because I find it depressing in and of itself. Notice how you attach a judgement to it, as even in the possibility this thread is not particularly helpful it is not then therefore "shit". It could just simply be depressed people venting.
It was a joke, dude. I replied to your questions and everything! I'm not allowed a little hyperbole for laughs?
I honestly don't get why you'd tell someone, "here's a treatment for bipolar disorder, which you don't have, but you do have the genes for." We have very little idea what genes contribute to bipolar disorder. It's almost certainly a bunch, at the same time, so you can't really talk about dominant and recessive. You can talk about variable expressivity and penetrance and all that good stuff too, but it's probably premature for something we know so little about.
Do you mind going in to just a bit more detail, here or over PM? What caused the damage? Is it secondary to some other medical problem or an accident? If it's a symptom of depression itself, or a side effect of medications used to treat depression, that's something else altogether (and pretty damn common).
What have you tried by way of treatment? Have you talked to a psychiatrist? Primary care doc? Urologist?
Unfortunately, it's not a temporary side effect of medication, nor is it psychological. It's been this way for several months now and I actually know the cause beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm kind of ashamed to admit that I started having this problem the day after I tried "jelqing". At the time, I guess I didn't fully understand just how fragile and easily damaged this part of the body could be. I could speak to a urologist, but I've already read about the treatment options and I can't say I'm enthusiastic about using any of them.
Probably not. Mental illness does have a heritable component, but is likely too complex to be accounted for by a single identifiable gene, like the examples in the link.
well on the contrary you have a lot more free time and money
it would be nice if we could have a simple lobotomy to remove the part that makes us feel like sex is so important
I've said this before: if there was a pill that could kill the sexual desire forever, I'd take it in a heartbeat. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain, in my case.
Recently I realized that I've become completely impotent (sexually). I had held out a naive hope for a while that it might just be a short term injury, but at this point, I'm certain that I've suffered permanent damage. Barring a breakthrough in medical science, I'll have to just live with this for the rest of my life. There are a few options available to help mitigate the problem, but none of them cure the root cause. This is probably a long shot, but does anyone else here have this problem, or know anyone who has this problem? I've been depressed for a long time, but this has quickly entered my list of reasons why I don't feel like getting up in the morning.
Back when I took medication, I noticed that I was going impotent. Couldn't get hard most of the time, and when I could I fapped for an hour without cumming. The horror.
Stopped using the meds ASAP and luckily, no damage seems to have been done yet.
Medication is some seriously fucked up shit, and unless the person would kill themselves without it, it's not worth it imo.
Bagels: Got any links to studies about the genetic component of depression?
Decided on peanut-cookies, almond-cookies, chocolate-stars, and one kind which I don't know how to translate the name to english. Might be a bit much to do in one day, but I just see how far I can get.
Ive always thought of depression as natures way of getting rid of poor candidates for mating, and as part of natural selection that we just seem to think we are above.
Unfortunately, it's not a temporary side effect of medication, nor is it psychological. It's been this way for several months now and I actually know the cause beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm kind of ashamed to admit that I started having this problem the day after I tried "jelqing". At the time, I guess I didn't fully understand just how fragile and easily damaged this part of the body could be. I could speak to a urologist, but I've already read about the treatment options and I can't say I'm enthusiastic about using any of them.
I have a story I'm rather embarrassed about sharing but empathy compels me to share it, maybe it could help you. I don't know.
In April I had my colon removed (ironic?) and a pretty radical procedure done to get my small intestine and rectum repurposed so that I wouldn't have to get a colostomy. Cuz they're just fucking gross.
Well the procedure worked fine, but of course with any major surgery like that, there's potential side effects, among these being impotence and retrograde ejaculation, because the surgeon had to mess with a lot of stuff down below the belt, he had to cut through or move just about everything. He straight up said, depending on what my anatomy was like down there, there might not be any avoiding it. The chances of these complications were small but not insignificant... much higher than if I had a simpler and less invasive procedure to get a colostomy. I was scared but went ahead with it anyway.
I spent a month in the hospital and for a half that time I couldn't even piss let alone come. That was normal, lots of physical trauma down there that needed to heal, and most of it slowly did. Very slowly.
Well after going home I found, lo and behold, even after a long "getting back to normal" period I couldn't get hard anymore. Months passed and I had resigned myself to the "fact" that I was now impotent. And being a particularly embarrassing problem, I didn't tell my doctors, even though I was telling them every other embarrassing and icky thing about my recovery.
I went 7 months like this, but near the end I found myself waking up semi-hard, though strangely and somewhat disturbingly less sensitive, almost numb at times. But hey, it was a good sign. After that it took some coaxing, physically and psychologically, but after another month or so it finally works fine again, as good as ever, and I've got almost all my feeling back. I don't know what your specific injury entails and how long it's been going on, but maybe there's some precedent here... I went 8 fucking months between orgasms and had crazy physical trauma down there, but it DID heal. But it took so long that I have some understanding what you're going through, I felt that same hopelessness. It exacerbated my depression badly (though in retrospect, it's almost unnerving how relatively easily I resigned myself to it, I thought I'd be angrier). So maybe sharing my embarrassing story could help, there might be parallels. Have you talked to your doctor? Whatever happened, maybe it could be treated... this shit can take time, I know from experience.
Decided on peanut-cookies, almond-cookies, chocolate-stars, and one kind which I don't know how to translate the name to english. Might be a bit much to do in one day, but I just see how far I can get.
Wow that sounds great
Kind of jealous now, even if I make that many good cookies, no one in my family will eat them.
Even if it's a bit much and you can't do all of it, don't beat yourself up. Always tomorrow!
Wow that sounds great
Kind of jealous now, even if I make that many good cookies, no one in my family will eat them.
Even if it's a bit much and you can't do all of it, don't beat yourself up. Always tomorrow!
Well as expected, four different kinds was a bit much for one day. Managed to make the peanut-cookies and the chocolate ones. Will do the other two tomorrow.
Why would your familie not eat yout cookies?
Guys, there is no such things as "my genes cause my behavior".
Genes are timers and may control (some, not all) bodily states, but they do not directly control the framing of situations, observations, stimuli, or the appropriate response to that particular subjective frame.
There is no 1-to-1 connection here. It is yet another complex part of a highly emergent stacked (and not mutual exclusive) complex processes.
This naturalistic fallacy bugs me since it is just positivism in disguise. And essentialism to boot.
And while people may be inclined to escape from freedom, the idea that freedom is (inherently) dangerous or should be avoided is a deeply christian framing of the concept, by imbuing the question of power / freedom with morals.
That bugs me too.
third and last: "the noble savage" (for instance native Americans pre-European contact) is also based on nothing but myth.
It's really hard to give any objective reading on 'savage' tribal life since -as you can tell by the words- it is heavily biased and most of it is a bunch of nonsense and bullshit. "scolars" had little issue making stuff up in previous centuries.
(and of course, one would become a scolar or 'academic' by the good grace of being born into wealth and nobility to begin with. Academic intelligence had little to do with it. )
Ok, let me entertain you with my "dick reader" reader summary:
Step 1: depression is presumed to be associated with a specific neurotransmitter (meanwhile, there's like a million of those, and they can take on each others functions as well)
step 2: ??? (fuck if I know)
step 3: depression is related to limiting the mind's focus on bigger pictures versus small ones (the "closing down" that most will recognize, or going over the same things over and over)
step 4: evolution something something (no link)
There is no focus or central point in this article. I would call it rubbish, but that might offend someone.
Recently I realized that I've become completely impotent (sexually). I had held out a naive hope for a while that it might just be a short term injury, but at this point, I'm certain that I've suffered permanent damage. Barring a breakthrough in medical science, I'll have to just live with this for the rest of my life. There are a few options available to help mitigate the problem, but none of them cure the root cause. This is probably a long shot, but does anyone else here have this problem, or know anyone who has this problem? I've been depressed for a long time, but this has quickly entered my list of reasons why I don't feel like getting up in the morning.
Well as expected, four different kinds was a bit much for one day. Managed to make the peanut-cookies and the chocolate ones. Will do the other two tomorrow.
Why would your familie not eat yout cookies?
Nice though, good work ^^
They're not really big on sweets and usually proclaim anything I make is foul.
(Rare chance they'll like it.)
Also on another note, while I was driving around doing some errands, I'm starting to realize me and driving don't mix.
I'm starting to think it's my degrading functions in my brain due to depression or could be something else...(I don't suck that bad but still...)
Also on another note, while I was driving around doing some errands, I'm starting to realize me and driving don't mix.
I'm starting to think it's my degrading functions in my brain due to depression or could be something else...(I don't suck that bad but still...)
I have never felt this bad in my life. Could someone please suggest something I can do to feel better? Reading and listening to music used to work but not now. Drinking doesn't help. I have no access to any drugs either.
I have never felt this bad in my life. Could someone please suggest something I can do to feel better? Reading and listening to music used to work but not now. Drinking doesn't help. I have no access to any drugs either.
I have never felt this bad in my life. Could someone please suggest something I can do to feel better? Reading and listening to music used to work but not now. Drinking doesn't help. I have no access to any drugs either.
I have never felt this bad in my life. Could someone please suggest something I can do to feel better? Reading and listening to music used to work but not now. Drinking doesn't help. I have no access to any drugs either.
I have never felt this bad in my life. Could someone please suggest something I can do to feel better? Reading and listening to music used to work but not now. Drinking doesn't help. I have no access to any drugs either.
I actually never been to one,but my old professor gave us an option to go to one for extra credit.
It's seems pretty chill and fun.
A lotta head nodding and the like.
I don't drink that often really. It just helps me get through the weekend.
I'd love to help people by volunteering and I love concerts as well but my social anxiety makes that pretty much impossible. I've done both and every time I felt like I was dying. Every concert I've gone to alone is a bad memory. I'm being haunted by too many bad memories already and don't want to add new ones.
I wish I could do any of those things. Talking to strangers makes me feel awful and it hasn't gotten any better despite trying many times. Bad experiences made it a lot worse actually. I have a huge fear of rejection and failure I can't get rid of.
Same goes for the gym. I just feel like I'm dying in the presence of strangers. Working out at home is the best I can do.
I go to a bakery at every week. Talking to cashiers is no problem.
As for reading: that used to make me feel better but now it just doesn't do anything.
