Support NeoGAF

[Mammoth Jones]

Your solution is to keep doing what the ATF has been doing for years.

Because that's working so well, obviously. You deserve to be mocked.

No. You mocked the notion that there's a Black Market in the US. And mocked that I know from the streets. The "ATF" didn't have anything to do with it. That was a post made after.

Nice how you completely ignored the factual information in the pbs link in my reply to you.

Keep moving those goalposts.

I do not believe I deserve to be mocked. I believe I deserve to have an intelligent poster refute my statements with a well-thought out reasonable post. Not just "herpa-derp Ima mock u! cause I disagreeee!". But whatever, I apologize if I offended you.

Gun amnesties were held in Britain to destroy existing guns in possession without prosecution. They were very successful.

So is that what we want here? Be honest so we know what we're discussing. Because every time I mention those that want to do so I get told "No one's saying ban/destroy all guns!" So I'm a bit confused...

I though the goal was sensible gun control. Not the elimination of all guns. That's going way too far and is unrealistic. Politically and literally.

 

[akira28]

No. It's not expired. The AWB expired. The Firearm Owners Protection Act is still very much in place.

I'm misunderstanding the discussion then. You can still buy and own automatic weapons, but there are provisions, and it's expensive. You need a grandfathered gun and all of that. You can't buy new automatic weapons, but there are automatic weapons in circulation that you can buy, and legally own, depending on your state.

 

[Hawkian]

No. You mocked the notion that there's a Black Market in the US. And mocked that I know from the streets. The "ATF" didn't have anything to do with it. That was a post made after.

Nice how you completely ignored the factual information in the pbs link in my reply to you.

Keep moving those goalposts.

I do not believe I deserve to be mocked. I believe I deserve to have an intelligent poster refute my statements with a well-thought out reasonable post. Not just "herpa-derp Ima mock u! cause I disagreeee!". But whatever, I apologize if I offended you.

Well, the point about a pistol being "as easy to obtain as heroin" deserves mockery.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Will say this in a sort of devils advocate way: here in the UK, it's a big, shocking event if one person gets shot anywhere in the country. Our equivalent of a major gun event was one man who killed two people and shot two others with a hunting rifle before killing himself. One has to argue that has to be down to how difficult it is to acquire firearms.

On the flip side -- we get more knife crime. Especially around young people. But, still, I guess if you get a mad man with a knife, he generally speaking can do a lot less damage than if he's carrying an auto or even a semi, really.

US gun control can be tighter, I think, but as a Brit I wish our laws were a little more lax. But.. hey, there's a foreign opinion!

It's only because we have the best negotiation expert in the world in the form of Gazza, with a fishing rod, a bag of chicken and half a six pack of special brew.

 

[(._.)]

Nope. certainly not. Wasn't certainly raised in the US in a gun totting rural-ish society. Most certainly don't have a wife who's family is full of hunters. And most certainly of all don't advocate basic gun ownership for hunting. Never have fired a gun and if I did I bet I wasn't the one that got the highest score out of the range group. Nope. Not me. I'm a hipster godless anti-gun European.

Now you. Do you even lift?

ooohhh shit, yea I fucking lift. dad builds guns, uncle is ex marine + native american survivalist + hunter, fired first gun at 9 years of age, not ignorant guy who thinks fully automatic guns are legal in the US. I think I have you beat bruh.

 

[Jangocube]

I think there are some obvious things that almost all people would agree on, such as:

1) Humans will kill other humans regardless if guns existed or not
2) Easy access to guns leads to more gun related deaths
3) Having a gun makes killing another person much easier then something less deadly, such as a knife(it would be hard to murder a classroom of people with a knife)

So if most people agree with these statements, why not have more gun control in this country? Why is it easy to obtain a deadly weapon in this country when gun violence is so high?

The self defense argument I think is pretty terrible as well. At most all you need is a pistol to protect your home from an intruder. And if you think "the people" will or could rise up against the government these days with our firearms, you severely underestimate the power of the US military.

 

[xenist]

And that's alright.

It can only help. What's with the all-or-nothing attitude?

Did you misunderstand me? I'm arguing for gun control.

 

[angelfly]

Will say this in a sort of devils advocate way: here in the UK, it's a big, shocking event if one person gets shot anywhere in the country. Our equivalent of a major gun event was one man who killed two people and shot two others with a hunting rifle before killing himself. One has to argue that has to be down to how difficult it is to acquire firearms.

On the flip side -- we get more knife crime. Especially around young people. But, still, I guess if you get a mad man with a knife, he generally speaking can do a lot less damage than if he's carrying an auto or even a semi, really.

US gun control can be tighter, I think, but as a Brit I wish our laws were a little more lax. But.. hey, there's a foreign opinion!

Against a knife most people at least have a fighting chance to survive.

 

[Dude Abides]

Well, the point about a pistol being "as easy to obtain as heroin" deserves mockery.

I think Mammoth lives in NYC (like me). Could be an accurate statement here.

 

[Vilix]

You and the other guy missed the point entirely.


Do you really think people for gun control expect people with illegal guns to turn them in? No duh they won't.

Those illegal guns come from somewhere. Most of them are bought legally then sold/stolen. Or, bought from licensed dealers illegally.

The guns COME from somewhere. They don't just grow from some plant someone grows in their basement. All the guns are made legally, that's the problem.

Banning the making of alcohol and drugs really worked out well, didn't it? There will always be parts to make a gun. And making (assembling) a gun is neither illegal or hard to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30i_6awxEG4

 

[Hawkian]

I think Mammoth lives in NYC (like me). Could be an accurate statement here.

Serious or not, whether or not it holds true in one location over another doesn't make it a good reason to use it as a blanket statement as he did.

 

[GungHo]

*sigh* This is so irrelevant to these discussions. No one is using automatic weapons or hand-modified semi-autos in these mass shootings.

No, it's not irrelavent, and here's why:

The anti-gun folks are walking into an enfilade because they don't know what they're talking about. They use the wrong terms, they apply the wrong laws, and they confuse the concepts, and the gun folks pick them off one by one because it's the high school team playing the New England Patriots. The gun folks know all the right terms, and laws, and concepts, and they are orchestrating the conversation. This is not an observation soley about the content of this thread or NeoGAF. This is an issue with the entire anti-gun position on a national level. If they want to get the issue off high-center, someone besides the Brady Institute is going to have to be able to voice their objections from an educated position. They cannot simply throw "I don't like the black guns" or "jeez, this looks like an elephant killer" down the pipe and have any positive effect.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

No. You mocked the notion that there's a Black Market in the US. And mocked that I know from the streets. The "ATF" didn't have anything to do with it. That was a post made after.

Nice how you completely ignored the factual information in the pbs link in my reply to you.

Keep moving those goalposts.

I do not believe I deserve to be mocked. I believe I deserve to have an intelligent poster refute my statements with a well-thought out reasonable post. Not just "herpa-derp Ima mock u! cause I disagreeee!". But whatever, I apologize if I offended you.

So you're saying that guns shouldn't be made at all?

Correct?

(I don't want to put words in your mouth so I'm asking instead)

Are you even reading the thread?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation



but if victim had gun this not happen

But illegal guns are the real problem, right?

You have been refuted, over and over and over again. You keep making the same illogical point, over and over and over.

 

[jonnyp]

The companion to this thread, reserved for the gun control debate. Most people have expressed a desire to keep the two discussions separate, and I agree with them.

I'm all for gun control and I live in a country that has pretty strict ones (Norway) but people such as the killer in Newtown will get ahold of guns and bombs no matter what. We just experienced that with Anders Behring Breivik in Norway as you all may remember.

There are truly sick individuals in this world, unfortunately they are not picked up and institutionalized before they commit such heinous acts of violence against innocent people.

 

[Piggus]

Gun amnesties were held in Britain to destroy existing guns in possession without prosecution. They were very successful.

Yeah that would go over well here. Be reasonable. Do you really think people with thousands of dollars worth of guns would just hand them all over to be destroyed? I know I wouldn't. I have guns that are 100 years old and were passed down to me by my dad and grandpa. They have a lot of sentimental value to me. There will be many alternative and better solutions before that ever happens. But there NEEDS to be a solution, that's for sure.

We need better gun safety education, better background checks, and psychological evaluations. There are countries with widespread gun ownership but very little gun violence, and it's because those countries don't have the societal issues we have, along with better education and background checks. It's too easy to get a gun here, and that's coming from a responsible gun owner.

 

[Devolution]

I think there are some obvious things that almost all people would agree on, such as:

1) Humans will kill other humans regardless if guns existed or not
2) Easy access to guns leads to more gun related deaths
3) Having a gun makes killing another person much easier then something less deadly, such as a knife(it would be hard to murder a classroom of people with a knife)

So if most people agree with these statements, why not have more gun control in this country? Why is it easy to obtain a deadly weapon in this country when gun violence is so high?

The self defense argument I think is pretty terrible as well. At most all you need is a pistol to protect your home from an intruder. And if you think "the people" will or could rise up against the government these days with our firearms, you severely underestimate the power of the US military.

Seriously they'll just send drones up any militia's ass.

 

[Vilix]

Well, the point about a pistol being "as easy to obtain as heroin" deserves mockery.

Maybe not as easy as heroin. But its definately not difficult by any means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASjfzG4mpyU

 

[Earthstrike]

I think there are some obvious things that almost all people would agree on, such as:

1) Humans will kill other humans regardless if guns existed or not
2) Easy access to guns leads to more gun related deaths
3) Having a gun makes killing another person much easier then something less deadly, such as a knife(it would be hard to murder a classroom of people with a knife)

So if most people agree with these statements, why not have more gun control in this country? Why is it easy to obtain a deadly weapon in this country when gun violence is so high?

The self defense argument I think is pretty terrible as well. At most all you need is a pistol to protect your home from an intruder. And if you think "the people" will or could rise up against the government these days with our firearms, you severely underestimate the power of the US military.

Could you imagine a bunch of survivalists fighting a tank?

*pink* *pink* *ponk*

Tank proceeds to run them all over.

*klsplksklsplskplsk

It'd be like something out of a cartoon.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Correct, depending on the state it is possible but largely prohibitive in cost. But,

Completely and absolutely irrelevant to these discussions.

Let's... not mischaracterize history here :-/ That was a 5-4 decision, and many Americans disagree with it.

Absolutely fine. But this isn't the European Union we're talking about here - you don't just keep asking til you get the answer you want. It's been ruled constitutionally true by the supreme court. Personally, I'd back tighter gun laws - but it needs to be done via the correct channels, and the supreme court ruling suggests that this channel is a constitutional amendment.

 

[Deified Data]

Did you misunderstand me? I'm arguing for gun control.

Probably. It's been known to happen.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Well, the point about a pistol being "as easy to obtain as heroin" deserves mockery.

I didn't say it's as easy. I said it's "damned near as easy" but I digress. I don't know where/how to get heroin. But I'm not so naive to believe it isn't easily obtainable for those that crave such things. That's all I'm saying.

Same with guns.

That's my point. I stand by my point.

Once again: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

There is a black market in the US for guns that needs to be clamped down on. The question is *how*.

Mock away.

 

[Hawkian]

No, it's not irrelavent, and here's why:

The anti-gun folks are walking into an enfilade because they don't know what they're talking about. They use the wrong terms, they apply the wrong laws, and they confuse the concepts, and the gun folks pick them off one by one because it's the high school team playing the New England Patriots. The gun folks know all the right terms, and laws, and concepts, and they are orchestrating the conversation. This is not an observation soley about the content of this thread or NeoGAF. This is an issue with the entire anti-gun position on a national level. If they want to get the issue off high-center, someone besides the Brady Institute is going to have to be able to voice their objections from an educated position. They cannot simply throw "I don't like the black guns" or "jeez, this looks like an elephant killer" down the pipe and have any positive effect.

Actually, yes, it's irrelevant, and it seems like you really misunderstood me.

Talking about automatic weapons and the laws concerning them is irrelevant because automatic weapons aren't used in these shootings.

This discussion is not about who knows more about guns. And I don't know who comprises the "two sides" in your somewhat-paranoid analogy about the incontroverible armed New England Patriots and a hapless high school football team, but I hope I can realistically challenge you to find something that I have said about guns that was false or inaccurate. I favor much stricter regulation of them, but I also know quite a lot about them (and frankly think they are cool whether I want to or not). You're attempting to paint the conversation as extremely binary when it's nothing of the sort.

I don't know where/how to get heroin. But I'm not so naive to believe it isn't easily obtainable for those that crave such things. That's all I'm saying.

Same with guns.

That's my point. I stand by my point.

Okay, got it and it's a valid point, I'm saying- phrase it that way.

I don't want to own a gun. I know of three places within 10 miles of my apartment where I can legally obtain one.
I don't want to own heroin. Even if I decided right now that I did, I wouldn't have any idea where to get it.

It's not damned near as easy for me.

 

[flyover]

But illegal guns are the real problem, right?

You have been refuted, over and over and over again. You keep making the same illogical point, over and over and over.

He's insistent that every single shooter in the history of ever would have bought (or will buy) guns on the black market if guns were banned. There's really no point in arguing with him, because his point (even though I think it's silly) is hypothetical and can never be confirmed one way or the other.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Banning the making of alcohol and drugs really worked out well, didn't it? There will always be parts to make a gun. And making (assembling) a gun is neither illegal or hard to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30i_6awxEG4

lol yes, multiple machined parts, easy as using your home drill press that everyone has. Easy as fermenting grape juice or gardening. Bullets are even easier to make.

Why don't more criminals in Canada/Japan/UK just do this? What are they thinking?

 

[Czigga]

You and the other guy missed the point entirely.


Do you really think people for gun control expect people with illegal guns to turn them in? No duh they won't.

Those illegal guns come from somewhere. Most of them are bought legally then sold/stolen. Or, bought from licensed dealers illegally.

The guns COME from somewhere. They don't just grow from some plant someone grows in their basement. All the guns are made legally, that's the problem.

I'm confused. What is your solution? To make guns illegal to make?

Gun sales have gone up over the last ten years while violent crime has decreased.

So the idea that more guns = more crime is patently false in America. I understand that correlation != causation, but the opposing view is not supported by anything.

Also, you yourself mentioned that most guns are purchased legally then sold / stolen. Do you think that making guns illegal will solve that problem? Taking any activity towards that route will only cause your described problem to be worse because then all gun sales would be under the table, impossible to track, etc. This has also been proven through US history of other prohibition measures (Alcohol, drugs, etc) in terms of black markets that will undoubtedly open up once widespread gun bans are enacted, which will lead to more violence.

 

[Izayoi]

I remember all these conversations after Columbine, but I just don't see anything changing.
Kids were killed in the theater shooting too, but nobody talks about it anymore.

Yup. The NRA will make sure this is smoothed right over, and we won't hear anything more about it a month from now. It never changes.

 

[jonezer4]

Gun control is one part. The glorification of violence in American culture is the other. Both must be worked on to stop things like this.

The glorification of violence in American culture? I'm thinking back to how many people have been gloriously portrayed slaying kindergarten students in cinema and songs and am having trouble thinking of one.

This dude didn't watch Die Hard and think "I'm going to go shoot up a school." He had issues far, far beyond any violence portrayed in American culture.

 

[Hawkian]

lol yes, multiple machined parts, easy as using your home drill press that everyone has. Easy as fermenting grape juice or gardening. Bullets are even easier to make.

Why don't more criminals in Canada/Japan/UK just do this? What are they thinking?

Yeah that post really threw me for a loop too :-/

The video he linked to links to a pre-packaged kit with every single part you need.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

I'd say make handguns illegal. Go all out like other western nations, just massive crackdown on handguns & assault weapons. But that's just my opinion. Wouldn't fly in the U.S, but it's my wish.

 

[Earthstrike]

Yeah that post really threw me for a loop too :-/

The video he linked to links to a pre-packaged kit with every single part you need.

But if you had a forge you could smelt them yourself.

 

[Vilix]

lol yes, multiple machined parts, easy as using your home drill press that everyone has. Easy as fermenting grape juice or gardening. Bullets are even easier to make.

Why don't more criminals in Canada/Japan/UK just do this? What are they thinking?

Maybe because we have a larger population and/or guns are a heavy part of our culture.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation



but if victim had gun this not happen

problem with these kinds of charts is that we don't have a parallel universe where firearms are more heavily restricted to see how this situation unfolds.

how many of those killers would have gotten their guns by other means if legal means weren't available to them? we'll never know, but it's germaine to the point.

 

[Hawkian]

But if you had a forge you could smelt them yourself.

It's way easier to make seriously deadly explosives with stuff you almost certainly have in your garage...

Just a bizarre argument to bring up, I have no clue what he was thinking

problem with these kinds of charts is that we don't have a parallel universe where firearms are more heavily restricted to see how this situation unfolds.

how many of those killers would have gotten their guns by other means if legal means weren't available to them? we'll never know, but it's germaine to the point.

A very good point. I think the crucial thing you need to decide about the debate is this:

Do you agree that, if the total number (legal + illegal) was more than the total number (reduced legal means + illegal/solely illegal) in the second scenario by one, would you support stricter regulation?

 

[$200]

We don't even know if they are the legal gun owners or not. If not, better gun laws and control will do shit.

By not allowing guns it makes it all a lot harder to possess a gun legally or illegally.

 

[Vilix]

Yeah that post really threw me for a loop too :-/

The video he linked to links to a pre-packaged kit with every single part you need.

Did you happen to read the part where I said there will always be gun parts for sale? You can find them easily on the, they're legal to purchase, and not difficult to build.

 

[Timedog]

Banning the making of alcohol and drugs really worked out well, didn't it? There will always be parts to make a gun. And making (assembling) a gun is neither illegal or hard to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30i_6awxEG4

Yeah, I'm sure there will be commercially available gun parts for sale if guns are banned/heavily regulated.

*facepalm of the fucking century*

 

[LAUGHTREY]

problem with these kinds of charts is that we don't have a parallel universe where firearms are more heavily restricted to see how this situation unfolds.

how many of those killers would have gotten their guns by other means if legal means weren't available to them? we'll never know, but it's germaine to the point.

If all people have to back up their point is a hypothetical scenario where their argument is legitimized, then they don't really have a point at all do they?

Some people honestly think the only thing holding up society right now is the second amendment, and are unwillingly to entertain any ideas otherwise.

 

[Hawkian]

Yeah, I'm sure there will be commercially available gun parts for sale if guns are banned/heavily regulated.

*facepalm of the fucking century*

Seriously that post is like the one thing about this entire thread that actually made me laugh. I kind of needed it

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Are you even reading the thread?



But illegal guns are the real problem, right?

You have been refuted, over and over and over again. You keep making the same illogical point, over and over and over.

Have you even been paying attention?

Post 385:

Me: I didn't say let's not try to create a better system. The premise of the thread was WOULD increased gun regulation have prevented it. With a vibrant black market around the answer is no. Unfortunately.

I think putting the focus on gun control is extremely myopic. If we're going to talk about gun control then we need to talk about mental health services, lack of coping skills and many other problems in society. I was listening to the news and they said he worked at the school and was let go that morning. What leads to a person being unable to cope in such a fashion?

Do you not understand what I'm saying? I never said illegal guns are the only problem. I'm saying they are A problem. And they will STILL be a problem regardless of how strict gun control policies become. That's not to say we shouldn't try. And I agree with a better system of gun control. BUT, that's NOT going to prevent shit like this WITH the black market that exists at the same time. I believe I've been pretty consistant about this. Unless we include the black market with "regulation" it's not going to change shit. That's what I'm saying.

Do you really think maniacs wouldn't score a weapon if there's strict gun control laws. AND a clampdown on the black market? C'mon son...

I'm also saying we need to have a conversation about the disgusting lack of mental health services but that conversation isn't as fun as the self-righteous "All guns are bad!" position.

 

[Jangocube]

Seriously they'll just send drones up any militia's ass.

Yep, won't be pretty that's for sure.

Could you imagine a bunch of survivalists fighting a tank?

*pink* *pink* *ponk*

Tank proceeds to run them all over.

*klsplksklsplskplsk

It'd be like something out of a cartoon.

Exactly. The idea that civilians can rise up against our government by force is one that is no longer feasible. It's a terrible argument for less gun control.

 

[Deified Data]

problem with these kinds of charts is that we don't have a parallel universe where firearms are more heavily restricted to see how this situation unfolds.

how many of those killers would have gotten their guns by other means if legal means weren't available to them? we'll never know, but it's germaine to the point.

Some of them. Not all. Which is the point.

 

[Mercury Fred]

problem with these kinds of charts is that we don't have a parallel universe where firearms are more heavily restricted to see how this situation unfolds.

how many of those killers would have gotten their guns by other means if legal means weren't available to them? we'll never know, but it's germaine to the point.

We don't? What about other countries who have stricter gun control laws?

 

[$200]

problem with these kinds of charts is that we don't have a parallel universe where firearms are more heavily restricted to see how this situation unfolds.

how many of those killers would have gotten their guns by other means if legal means weren't available to them? we'll never know, but it's germaine to the point.

You don't need a parallel universe. You have other countries to compare to...

 

[Seanspeed]

I think there are some obvious things that almost all people would agree on, such as:

1) Humans will kill other humans regardless if guns existed or not
2) Easy access to guns leads to more gun related deaths
3) Having a gun makes killing another person much easier then something less deadly, such as a knife(it would be hard to murder a classroom of people with a knife)

So if most people agree with these statements, why not have more gun control in this country? Why is it easy to obtain a deadly weapon in this country when gun violence is so high?

The self defense argument I think is pretty terrible as well. At most all you need is a pistol to protect your home from an intruder. And if you think "the people" will or could rise up against the government these days with our firearms, you severely underestimate the power of the US military.

A lot of people argue #2.

People will say, "Oh, crime rate is lower now than in past so and so amount of years", but there's no telling whether that could be helped even more with stricter gun laws. Lower crime rates can happen for a number of reasons. I dont think we should get complacent on the issue just because crime isn't as bad as it was.

And really, the whole 'mass shooting' thing, while incredibly relevant at the moment, isn't the only thing to take into consideration. Lots and lots of single-person homicides take place that could be prevented. Not sure if you remember Jango, but my own experience with this sort of thing probably could have been prevented if not for the easy availability of a gun. My dad might still be alive today.

 

[KingofSarus]

No.

Look at China, which happened on the SAME FUCKING DAY.

 

[Hawkian]

Do you really think maniacs wouldn't score a weapon if there's strict gun control laws. AND a clampdown on the black market? C'mon son...

Strawman :-[ It isn't a question of whether they would or not. It's a question of whether or not it would be more difficult, and whether or not it would be as frequent.

I'm also saying we need to have a conversation about the disgusting lack of mental health services but that conversation isn't as fun as the self-righteous "All guns are bad!" position.

No aspects of this debate should be fun for anyone. I hope all sides can at least agree on that.

...except for that post about assembling your own guns, wtf

No.

Look at China, which happened on the SAME FUCKING DAY.

I'm going to need you to clarify this as soon as humanly possible.

 

[Incendiary]

I'd say make handguns illegal. Go all out like other western nations, just massive crackdown on handguns & assault weapons. But that's just my opinion. Wouldn't fly in the U.S, but it's my wish.

Problem with this, is there are millions of Americans that already own guns that aren't going to be willing to give them up. An outright ban would cause a hell of a lot more problems than a slow deregulation. Rounding up all the guns already in general populous would be a nightmare.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

If all people have to back up their point is a hypothetical scenario where their argument is legitimized, then they don't really have a point at all do they?

Some people honestly think the only thing holding up society right now is the second amendment, and are unwillingly to entertain any ideas otherwise.

just because it's a hypothetical doesn't mean it's not germaine to the point. the goal is to reduce gun crime, right? problem-solving requires considering actions and reactions to hypothetical scenarios because they could become the reality.

In my world, we simply call that "planning" for possible scenarios. If you make guns outright illegal, what happens? What are the possible outcomes and scenarios in a country as big as ours with as many guns as ours? Everything about this converastion...even the thread title itself is one big hypothetical. A place where hypothetical ideas and ideals are combined with conjecture and anecdotal evidence to create positions one way or another.

I'm going to need you to clarify this as soon as humanly possible.

20 children were stabbed at an elementary school today.

You don't need a parallel universe. You have other countries to compare to...

that's not how it works. you can't just...lift another countries experience and apply it to a different country as if all the metrics are the same. that's incredibly an embryonic way of thinking. I'd rather not take the time to explain why, but if I need to let me know. Culture, size, prevalence of firearms, poverty, income and opportunity limitations, socioeconomics etc.

 

[remnant]

Could you imagine a bunch of survivalists fighting a tank?

*pink* *pink* *ponk*

Tank proceeds to run them all over.

*klsplksklsplskplsk

It'd be like something out of a cartoon.

You should tell this to people in the middle east

 

[Socreges]

the evidence for the first claim is not strong (you can pick evidence in both directions). suicide, for example, is a clear indicator of major mental health problems and the suicide rate isn't particularly high. similarly, spending on mental health problems in america isn't particularly out of the ordinary when compared to other countries (this despite the fact that such problems get plenty of attention). gun availability is certainly high, but a particularly violent history isn't true at all.

Well, the suicide rate is higher in the US than in 5 of those 7 countries, but of course that was just one variable that I listed.

And there is certainly no relationship between spending on mental health problems and actual mental health problems.

You don't agree that the US has had a "particularly violent history"? In fact, that "isn't true at all"? Revolutionary war, civil war, various wars in the 20th century, and wars in Iraq/Afghanistan?

The United States also has the lowest level of trust in others compared to the other countries in that image.

And I'm sure we can argue over the particulars until we're blue in the face, but just give me your thoughts on this: do you honestly believe that the United States being particularly individualistic compared to countries with more communitarianism... is not essentially related to its high amount of fire arm homicides?

What do you think the reason is then, if not?