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[Pooya]

I need an honest answer.

I need to install Windows via Bootcamp on my Mac.

I will be using it mostly for visual studio.

Which is better for me - Win7 or Win8?

Macbook Pro or desktop? Win8 isn't officially supported by bootcamp yet, you can install it but some drivers don't work. You have to go track down a 3rd party driver for trackpad, if you google it there are multiple guides out there to get it set up properly. If you don't want to deal with the trouble win7 is easier to install right now. win8 will be supported sooner or later though. I'm not sure but if you need to purchase windows license, 8 is cheaper and easier to get too. the multi touch track pad on a mbp make using windows 8 UI and gestures a lot more easier too.

As far as using Visual Studio goes, there is no advantage with either, maybe things run a bit faster on 8 and the new Visual Studio with new UIs is consistent with rest of Win8 look if that matters to you, I imagine not. If you care about developing software and apps for the new Windows environment you have to be on 8 if not then it wouldn't really matter.

other than these things it wouldn't really matter which way you go, functionality is same in desktop. you only have a new start screen.

 

[Risette]

You're forgetting that other favorite: a cow, because you're too dumb to learn a new OS.

don't forget dinosaur, resistant to change

 

[Windu]

i just hate seeing ignorant posts about the OS.

 

[derFeef]

No worries, if I was in charge of design it'd actually be a well thought out product line and OS.

And you'd make no mistakes, don't have any oversights in the OS and everyone will love it. So funny reading the "I could do it better" on this forum every so often.

i just hate seeing ignorant posts about the OS.

Duuude, you do not have to try it to hate it!

 

[ralexand]

The only thing that could save windows 8 would be to make the metro UI optional for desktops and laptops.

I know of 4 people right off the top of my head whom i would suggest upgrading at that point.

That's such a dumb idea. MS is trying to get devs on their new app model so you're saying give people the option to opt out of it. They have that option already. Its called windows 7. Your option would be like MS releasing win 95 and giving users the option to disable the start menu and disable running win95 apps.

 

[klausbert]

I need an honest answer.

I need to install Windows via Bootcamp on my Mac.

I will be using it mostly for visual studio.

Which is better for me - Win7 or Win8?

Why are you using Bootcamp? I'm using Visual Studio with VMware Fusion on my 2012 MBA 13" and it's fast enough. Having all the stuff you need in one OS without the need to reboot is really nice.

To answer your question though, having used Win 7 and 8 with VS, you should probably go with 8 when you think you can put up with all the Windows 8 shenanigans. It's faster and if you're planning on Windows Phone development, it's the only OS where you can use the Windows Phone 8 emulator.

 

[pestul]

This is twice as bad as what the chart shows though then.
People are moving on from Windows entirely; ditching 7 for Android or an iPad.

Windows 8 should have a very high uptake if it were designed to stop this 'shedding'; it was supposed to, but its completely failed to.

I wouldn't argue against that. It seems they tried to counter, and are failing in the process.

An interesting aside. Lets say Windows 8 was metro on tablets and W7'esque on PCs but with all the other W8 improvements. Does anyone actually think the uptake of the line would be any better? I don't think it would.

 

[HammerOfThor]

Windows 8 is amazing. Its much faster and super fluid.

That being said, Metro is annoying and it sucks not to have a real start menu.

I need an honest answer.

I need to install Windows via Bootcamp on my Mac.

I will be using it mostly for visual studio.

Which is better for me - Win7 or Win8?

As a developer, I'd say go with Win8. I'm not sure what your doing, but it makes it a lot easier to do Win8 related dev work. You also future proofing yourself.

Also, use VMware Fusion.

 

[ralexand]

No worries, if I was in charge of design it'd actually be a well thought out product line and OS.

Nice! Please enlighten us with your major design decisions for windows 8. Let me guess, releasing 2 different versions, splitting the user base giving us a desktop version which wouldn't sell because it wouldn't offer any compelling difference between it and win 7 and a tablet version which no one would want because it wouldn't run windows apps and devs wouldn't have any incentive to create touch friendly apps because of its non-existent user base.

Brilliant!

 

[Dicer]

Times they are a changing...I dumped Windows and haven't looked back. I know plenty of people that see no reason to upgrade from 7 or even that dual boot now.

 

[Eideka]

I'm sure W8 is a great OS but there is nothing enticing me to leave W7.

Only thing would be some sort of big exclusive game and this won't happen.

 

[Windu]

Nice! Please enlighten us with your major design decisions for windows 8. Let me guess, releasing 2 different versions, splitting the user base giving us a desktop version which wouldn't sell because it wouldn't offer any compelling difference between it and win 7 and a tablet version which no one would want because it wouldn't run windows apps and devs wouldn't have any incentive to create touch friendly apps because of its non-existent user base.

Brilliant!

more ui cues is probably the #1 issue. Too many hidden UIs imo. I have noticed the bing apps now have a message at the top telling you about the app bar.

 

[Dead Man]

Nice! Please enlighten us with your major design decisions for windows 8. Let me guess, releasing 2 different versions, splitting the user base giving us a desktop version which wouldn't sell because it wouldn't offer any compelling difference between it and win 7 and a tablet version which no one would want because it wouldn't run windows apps and devs wouldn't have any incentive to create touch friendly apps because of its non-existent user base.

Brilliant!

How about just a tablet version that could run windows apps? Win 7 and Win7t.

 

[ralexand]

I wouldn't argue against that. It seems they tried to counter, and are failing in the process.

An interesting aside. Lets say Windows 8 was metro on tablets and W7'esque on PCs but with all the other W8 improvements. Does anyone actually think the uptake of the line would be any better? I don't think it would.

Exactly!

 

[ralexand]

How about just a tablet version that could run windows apps? Win 7 and Win7t.

You're describing win8 to a tee.

 

[Dead Man]

You're describing win8 to a tee.

Yes, but leave W7 as the default PC OS.

 

[Damon Bennet]

Yes, but leave W7 as the default PC OS.

meh windows has always been customizable, just use start 8 or whatever, if you dont like the new features.

windows 8 brings the best of both worlds and works great on all form factors. it would have been dumb to make an artificial barrier between tablet and desktop, when you can have a "one size fits all" solution that really works.

 

[Risette]

Nice! Please enlighten us with your major design decisions for windows 8. Let me guess, releasing 2 different versions, splitting the user base giving us a desktop version which wouldn't sell because it wouldn't offer any compelling difference between it and win 7 and a tablet version which no one would want because it wouldn't run windows apps and devs wouldn't have any incentive to create touch friendly apps because of its non-existent user base.

Brilliant!

Releasing two different OS under one name is worse because then people who want to use the new platform are forced to endure the worst of both worlds no matter which platform they use.

Why didn't Microsoft just expand .NET to multi-platform development?

 

[tino]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi8NpwiEuzc

useful video to get an idea of what windows 8 is like if you haven't used it. (or if you need a little help).

windows.com also has a nice overview http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/how-to#2TC=windows8

I haven't looked into the W8's UI interface until this youtube video (I am not planning to use it until I get a tablet so why would I.)

I didn't realize how much of W8's interface is "invisible control". We are not talking about 50%. It's more like 80-90% of the W8 controls are invisible. You don't even get visual cue when you perform them (for example, when you go to the upper corner to "drag down" the multi tasking thing) The metaphors are not consistent either.

I think you can legitimately make a point that the W8 interface is broken. Its unusable. There is no way I would train my wife/family to use this stuff. Why would you make the control interface with zero visual hint? Its like the polar opposite of the "ribbon" control philosophy.

I personally use Photoshop mostly by keyboard shortcuts because its faster than mouse (kind of like using keyboard on Starcraft), but that's a lot of new invisible commands you have to learn for a OS that may not even be around after 3 years. Why would anybody bother with it?

 

[ralexand]

more ui cues is probably the #1 issue. Too many hidden UIs imo. I have noticed the bing apps now have a message at the top telling you about the app bar.

Its not much different than win95. I don't remember any major tutorial explaining right clicking. Only thing I remember is an arrow pointing to the start menu.

 

[Pooya]

standards and expectations are different now than 1995.

 

[tino]

Its not much different than win95. I don't remember any major tutorial explaining right clicking. Only thing I remember is an arrow pointing to the start menu.

The Start menu itself is the visual cue.

 

[I'm an expert]

standards and expectations are different now than 1995.

I would take Win95 over anything after, honestly. First thing I did with every Win after XP was revert the start menu/taskbar/windows back to classic style just to remind me of my 200mhz MMX super beast. =(

 

[ralexand]

Releasing two different OS under one name is worse because then people who want to use the new platform are forced to endure the worst of both worlds no matter which platform they use.

Why didn't Microsoft just expand .NET to multi-platform development?

The best of both worlds outweighs the minor annoyances people bring up, but that's just me. Have fun carrying an iPad and mac laptop for the foreseeable future while MS is positioned to take advantage of Intel's high performance low power chips in the second half of this year.

 

[Mario007]

The best of both worlds outweighs the minor annoyances people bring up, but that's just me. Have fun carrying an iPad and mac laptop for the foreseeable future while MS is positioned to take advantage of Intel's high performance low power chips in the second half of this year.

The problem here is that people aren't really carrying around both. They're just sticking with the tablets. For an average user tablet offers everything that you'd do on your laptop. You don't need a super high performance chip inside to play Planetside 2. All you want is to have a text document, browser, quirky games to pass time, music and video player. Add to that the comfort of portability that tablets have over laptops and the choice is easy.

This is the worrying thing, PC sales are actually down. Win 8 didn't help nor did the hybrids. That means the problem here isn't that MS is not getting people to upgrade from Win7 to 8 but rather that people are moving away to tablets only.

I'm a university student and I've been using a Transformer from Asus for the past 2 months and I can't really say that I miss my laptop. The battery life is much better, I have best of both worlds thanks to the dock, Android is extremely easy to use and runs smoothly with Jellybean and there really is nothing that I'm missing.

 

[ralexand]

The Start menu itself is the visual cue.

And win8 has a huge one that it puts you in with no clicking needed. That's stellar usability homes. I think a win3.1 to win8 would have been an easier transition than win3.1 to win95. Plus we would have an app model and system that would pretty much eliminate the need to buy virus protection, a system that would prevent a single app from bringing the whole system to a crawl and a system that would make installing and uninstalling apps child play.

 

[Emitan]

The best of both worlds outweighs the minor annoyances people bring up, but that's just me. Have fun carrying an iPad and mac laptop for the foreseeable future while MS is positioned to take advantage of Intel's high performance low power chips in the second half of this year.

Uh why? If I need a mobile computer I'll bring my Macbook with me. Why would I also bring my iPad?

 

[Damon Bennet]

Uh why? If I need a mobile computer I'll bring my Macbook with me. Why would I also bring my iPad?

for whatever people use an ipad for, maybe?

 

[Walshicus]

i just hate seeing ignorant posts about the OS.

Honestly, I don't actually mind that people don't like the Metro UI style. What actually annoys me is how some people will say they'd buy Windows 8 if Microsoft brought the start menu back, but won't entertain the idea of a painless 3rd party install to do exactly what they're asking.

I mean if you don't think the performance or management improvements that Windows 8 brings are worth the £25 or whatever to upgrade then fine. But don't pretend that you're ready and willing to upgrade but for Metro, when it just isn't an issue to anyone able to install 3rd party applications.

 

[ralexand]

The problem here is that people aren't really carrying around both. They're just sticking with the tablets. For an average user tablet offers everything that you'd do on your laptop. You don't need a super high performance chip inside to play Planetside 2. All you want is to have a text document, browser, quirky games to pass time, music and video player. Add to that the comfort of portability that tablets have over laptops and the choice is easy.

This is the worrying thing, PC sales are actually down. Win 8 didn't help nor did the hybrids. That means the problem here isn't that MS is not getting people to upgrade from Win7 to 8 but rather that people are moving away to tablets only.

I'm a university student and I've been using a Transformer from Asus for the past 2 months and I can't really say that I miss my laptop. The battery life is much better, I have best of both worlds thanks to the dock, Android is extremely easy to use and runs smoothly with Jellybean and there really is nothing that I'm missing.

Its great that that works for you but MS can claim they have that solution with winrt plus a single tablet solution that will accommodate those users who want to run Office, PhotoShop, Steam, and Visual Studio on a high performance low power chipset soon when Haswell chips are released.

 

[Risette]

for whatever people use an ipad for, maybe?

Things that you can't do on a Macbook such as...

 

[True Underdog]

*You* can easily "put that code back in". It takes minutes and it's free, if that's the one thing that's pissing you off about it.

The lack of a start menu really is the low hanging fruit for people who want to bash Windows 8. When I was on OS X probably one of the most popular "insults" that was thrown at me was the lack of being able to use 3rd party applications to customize my experience and whatnot. As I understand it, there are third party ways to bring back a start menu, so these complaints kind of contradict what I've been hearing all along before I switched to Win8 from OS X.

That said, I'm really enjoying Win8 but a lot of that has to do with the enjoyment of learning a fresh OS that's new to me. It's the same reason I bounced between iOS and Android devices and the same reason I'll soon be trying a Windows Phone.

 

[Delusibeta]

It sucks that a good product is becoming a victim of ignorance and as much as I would also like to speak up about my positive experiences with Windows 8, I'm getting better at distinguishing between three classes of animals:

• parrots
• trolls
• sheep

For example, this post I just quoted is a fine example of "a parrot". Seriously, Windows 8 is considered as bad because Metro is bad. In my opinion, it's horribly undercooked, a pain in the arse to use without a touchscreen, the app infrastructure is sub-par and the whole thing has been buggy (most of my software problems on 8 has been from the Metro side of the fence), never mind the unfortunate implications Metro brings on the subject of the future of Windows. While there's some elements that could work (e.g. Live Tiles as a replacement for gadgets), but Metro on desktops should be scrapped in my opinion (and frankly I think Metro for tablets is a write-off without some major changes).

 

[ralexand]

Uh why? If I need a mobile computer I'll bring my Macbook with me. Why would I also bring my iPad?

Because a tablet has better portability.

 

[Mario007]

Its great that that works for you but MS can claim they have that solution with winrt plus a single tablet solutiom that will accommodate those users who want to run Office, PhotoShop, Steam, and Visual Studio on a high performance low power chipset soon when Haswell chips are released.

Oh definitely their hybrid approach has been the right to take, but when you're competing with iPad which has a huge mindshare and Android which is much cheaper than your products simply because the OEMs don't need to pay the licensing fees it becomes harder to compete. I mean MS is even going to release Office for iOS and Android soon. I've been using Google Docs and Polaris Office that is working quite well.

Plus, from my short time with WinRT I can definitely say that Android is leaps above it when it comes to UI and basic usability. It's just much more intuitive and has a tremendous amount of apps ready to be use (though this will be get addressed as more developers get their Metro apps out there). Android even feels closer to Windows than Metro on the WinRT machines does.

 

[ralexand]

Things that you can't do on a Macbook such as...

Play angry birds on a touch friendly device.

 

[grimshawish]

I wouldn't argue against that. It seems they tried to counter, and are failing in the process.

An interesting aside. Lets say Windows 8 was metro on tablets and W7'esque on PCs but with all the other W8 improvements. Does anyone actually think the uptake of the line would be any better? I don't think it would.

They need two brands frankly. Not just '8'; everything seems to be '8' at the moment.

Windows 8 should be the next step in Windows 7; faster and better. Folder Previews; smarter pin system and other additional features aimed at making it a better experience. It should be aimed at bringing people back to Windows and adding value to Windows 7 users.


Why not just brand the touch stuff Metro? Seriously just call it 'Metro'.
Multi-touch based devices just can't/shouldn't house the same OS as one another.

If it were so beneficial then iOS would not exist as a separate entity from the Mac range.
Simple, simple stuff.

I don't think 8 is useful as a touch device or a laptop/desktop. Does it succeed at that 'hybrid' form? Not really. Surface seems like a great idea with its type cover; more stuff like that and less 'the screen comes off this laptop' would be good for a 'Metro' OS.

 

[fritolay]

Windows 8 metro is just a glorified animated start menu for me. I stay in desktop mode. It is just as nice as Windows 7 with a few updates. Pretty much like everyone expected and heard. If it wasn't 40 dollars I would not have bothered. Now that I have it I don't feel the need to go back to Windows 7 for anything.

Lets see what they learn and do with Windows 9 as that will be the one people expect things from (every other MS OS pattern)

 

[Pooya]

I'm a university student and I've been using a Transformer from Asus for the past 2 months and I can't really say that I miss my laptop. The battery life is much better, I have best of both worlds thanks to the dock, Android is extremely easy to use and runs smoothly with Jellybean and there really is nothing that I'm missing.

What do you study if I may ask? I don't think average student can get by college by using Android machine, students would be one of the largest markets for laptops or these hybrids really, it's just not possible to do it on any other system. I'm coming from engineering field though. If your studies only include checking emails or even writing essays maybe that works otherwise for any field that requires any kind of design environment, science and engineering or even art and more I don't think tablets would ever be enough.

 

[ralexand]

Oh definitely their hybrid approach has been the right to take, but when you're competing with iPad which has a huge mindshare and Android which is much cheaper than your products simply because the OEMs don't need to pay the licensing fees it becomes harder to compete. I mean MS is even going to release Office for iOS and Android soon. I've been using Google Docs and Polaris Office that is working quite well.

Plus, from my short time with WinRT I can definitely say that Android is leaps above it when it comes to UI and basic usability. It's just much more intuitive and has a tremendous amount of apps ready to be use (though this will be get addressed as more developers get their Metro apps out there). Android even feels closer to Windows than Metro on the WinRT machines does.

Agreed, competition is tough but not trying to adapt your products to a touch based future isn't an option. They can be criticize for not doing it sooner but imo not for the design choices they made.

 

[Risette]

Play angry birds on a touch friendly device.

Why not carry an iPhone with a Macbook instead?

Spoiler

Or not play bad games?

 

[flippedb]

Unless my laptop's screen suddenly becomes touchy, I see no point in upgrading from 7.

 

[Pooya]

Unless my laptop's screen suddenly becomes touchy, I see no point in upgrading from 7.

your next laptop will very likely have touch screen if it's not a mac book.

 

[Doffen]

Unless my laptop's screen suddenly becomes touchy, I see no point in upgrading from 7.

What makes you think that the metro interface is the only new addition to Windows 8?

 

[Angelus Errare]

And you'd make no mistakes, don't have any oversights in the OS and everyone will love it. So funny reading the "I could do it better" on this forum every so often.

Never said it wouldn't have mistakes, I'm sure it would. But it wouldn't have such blatant ones.

 

[Damon Bennet]

Uh why? If I need a mobile computer I'll bring my Macbook with me. Why would I also bring my iPad?

Things that you can't do on a Macbook such as...

for whatever people use an ipad for, maybe?

Why not carry an iPhone with a Macbook instead?

Spoiler

Or not play bad games?

but now the whole purpose of an ipad is questioned. "why use ipad if I could bring a macbook"

ipad is smaller and consumer oriented. macbook is more for productivity. so if you continue the thought of "why would i bring 2 devices" actually challenges the whole approach that apple has taken. microsoft asks the same question. why do you need 2 devices if you could have something that is everything at once. productivity and entertainment, powerful and long lasting battery life. laptop with touch, tablet with dock, slide outs, you chose.

 

[ralexand]

They need two brands frankly. Not just '8'; everything seems to be '8' at the moment.

Windows 8 should be the next step in Windows 7; faster and better. Folder Previews; smarter pin system and other additional features aimed at making it a better experience. It should be aimed at bringing people back to Windows and adding value to Windows 7 users.


Why not just brand the touch stuff Metro? Seriously just call it 'Metro'.
Multi-touch based devices just can't/shouldn't house the same OS as one another.

If it were so beneficial then iOS would not exist as a separate entity from the Mac range.
Simple, simple stuff.

I don't think 8 is useful as a touch device or a laptop/desktop. Does it succeed at that 'hybrid' form? Not really. Surface seems like a great idea with its type cover; more stuff like that and less 'the screen comes off this laptop' would be good for a 'Metro' OS.

Like I said, not many people are going to upgrade to a win7 successor with minor speed improvements and easier pinning whatever that means and no one will jump in on a Metro os with a negligible amount of users for the foreseeable future.

 

[ralexand]

Why not carry an iPhone with a Macbook instead?

Spoiler

Or not play bad games?

Haha, no argument from me there.

P.S. Interesting discussion guys, sorry about all the posts, I'm just passionate about this stuff.

 

[Risette]

but now the whole purpose of an ipad is questioned. "why use ipad if I could bring a macbook"

ipad is smaller and consumer oriented. macbook is more for productivity. so if you continue the thought of "why would i bring 2 devices" actually challenges the whole approach that apple has taken.

Uh, no and no. Macbook is more expensive -- of course it's going to do more. They're aimed at different markets.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

What makes you think that the metro interface is the only new addition to Windows 8?

it's not the only new addition, but it's the addition you have to tolerate and learn to use every step of the OS from boot to using the start menu.

If miliseconds of time for booting speed and a slightly better task manager is worth the annoyance of a frankenstein GUI, by all means, but don't pretend you can just ignore that Metro has to be accepted first before any other feature can take the spotlight.