I understand. I'm passionate about computing too.
Windows 8's uptake falls behind Vista's pace
- Thread starter Canis lupus
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You understand the concept of "voting with your dollars", yes? This is why people won't buy W8 while understanding that they can basically make it they way they want to with a third party add-on.
If I buy W8 and use a program to return the functionality I already have, MS doesn't see that - they see a purchase for W8. They see a vote for metro. I'm not going to send easily misunderstood signals to Microsoft about W8 through purchasing it. My not buying Windows 8 speaks more loudly than buying Windows 8 and fixing it myself ever would.
I've got Win 7 and Win 8 set up as dual boot for my Dell Duo and I pretty much HATE the latter, despite having a touch screen. Perhaps I hadn't used it enough, but I feel like I'm always fighting the interface and having a hard time figuring out and doing stuff that I've taken for granted with win7. I only boot to win8 for novelty pretty much. The only advantage I see is that internet scrolling is much smoother in the latter one. As far as I'm concerned it's a turd of an operating system.
I know there are other core additions, such as the new "transfer" manager. Thing is, Metro is what's right in front of you all the time, and it's an interface built from ground-up for touch devices, and you can tell when using it with a non-touch device, it feels truly bad.
louis89
Member
Windows 8 is nothing more than Windows 7 with the start menu having been made full screen. I don't get all the complaints. Have you guys used it? Pretend that the Windows 8 start menu is shrunk down to just a corner of the screen, like old versions of Windows. Now, how is it different to Windows 7?
Frustrated_me
Member
Incorrect.
Great news, Windows 8 is trash.
How about just letting users switch between Metro and a completely Metro-free Desktop Mode based on their preference?
Aqaqqaaq
My mom bought a new laptop and it had Windows 7. She opted to buy Windows 8 with the upgrade discount thing and I was actually curious about trying out Metro and how the new OS would fare in general. It was also a good thing because all the OEM bloatware that came with the thing went down the drain during the update.
I really liked all the speed improvements but after using it for one day with a focus on learning it in order to teach my mother about about Metro, charms, etc, let's just say thank god for Classic Shell and how you can turn off and add so many things with it that the system wouldn't let me otherwise. Now it's a faster Windows 7 with the good performance improvements from Windows 8. My brother bought a new laptop for his wife and it was also the first thing he installed after trying Windows 8 while configuring it for her.
I really liked all the speed improvements but after using it for one day with a focus on learning it in order to teach my mother about about Metro, charms, etc, let's just say thank god for Classic Shell and how you can turn off and add so many things with it that the system wouldn't let me otherwise. Now it's a faster Windows 7 with the good performance improvements from Windows 8. My brother bought a new laptop for his wife and it was also the first thing he installed after trying Windows 8 while configuring it for her.
Beautifully Shaped Monsters
Member
An app model where you can only run unsigned code if you're a registered developer? Everything about computers would have been very different if that had happened.
It perfectly possible to design a secure operating system without walled gardens and locked down code execution. Metro/iOS/Android (to a lesser extend) are really just cash grabs using security as a poor excuse.
Microsoft had a system design that was completely flawed, inherited from DOS. It was simply not designed for mulituser and for use on networks with potential malicious users (ie, the internet). Microsoft spend 10 years fixing it, and finally got it more or less right by Windows Vista/7 (and kudos to them for doing so), but using the fact that they had a deeply flawed architecture as an argument for moving to a walled garden is just poor.
It's so weird reading these statements. I've been using Windows 8 on my laptop for like a year now. I can't seem to figure out what's so difficult about it? For me it works just like 7 on the desktop but with the addition of beautiful fullscreen metro apps, universal search for all apps, universal sharing between all apps, snap muktitasking, better battery efficiency, and a new Windows Store. Once you learn the hot corners it should ba a piece of cake. Especially for most tech savy people here.
I'm studying law, so it's pretty reading and essay heavy. That's where the transformer actually shines, having a tablet for reading an article is awesome and then changing it into a laptop for essays is damn convenient.
I can see that in engineering or science a Windows machine would be the preferable option simply because you'd be using software that wouldn't be running on Android or OSX or Linux. Having said that in art people actually tend to use Galaxy Note 10 or iPad with styli. Honestly as a student, unless you need to use dedicated software the most you do while using your laptop can easily be done on a tablet.
Well i think they did the right thing to try to integrate it together but they way they did it is completely stupid. The UI just isn't as intuitive as their competitors, it's expensive for the OEMs to license it. On top of that for WinRT the app selection is painful too low compared to Android or iOS so that makes it worse. Win8 might be better, but devices carrying it will be much more expensive than what's on the market.
Any suggestions for free ones other than Pokki? I found Pokki to be too slow.
The version I installed looked good enough, but you can use different skins too apparently. I like that it's open source, and I wasn't going to tell my mother and brother they'd need to pay for a fundamental fix like this. Are there other good free alternatives?
Statements like these always make me feel like I'm using a different operating system than the rest of you. Everything that can be done with the start menu through touch can also be done with a mouse and/or keyboard. I don't see how right clicking to select, clicking and dragging to move tiles around, or typing to search are difficult tasks at all.
The new apps are obviously going to be more touch oriented, but those included with the OS work well enough without touch (every touch function can be achieved with a mouse by left or right clicking), and either uninstalling or replacing them with something you might prefer isn't difficult at all.
not free, no. not yet at least.
Maybe it has a skin that looks like default Start8? The thing I like about that is that it fits the design of windows 8 desktop instead of being a Win7 start menu (it does have that too). It looks like it was there from the beginning.
CharlieDigital
Banned
This point of view misses the bigger issues that cause Windows 8 to be fundamentally inferior by design.
The youtube video a few pages back sums it up nicely with the 4C's:
- Control
- Conveyance
- Context
- Continuity
Regardless of the fact that the desktop is still there, regardless of the fact that performance in certain aspects is marginally better, regardless of the improvements to the task manager and the file transfer mechanism -- they broke the 4C's everywhere in this UI and the resultant OS is fundamentally flawed from the perspective of user interaction design. Ask yourself: could they have built the start screen without removing the start button? Could they have included Metro UI without modifying the location of known system shortcuts? Could they have included the full screen app menu without having the silly hot corners? Yes. They could have. One should not have to pay for a third party app to make the OS usable.
What makes many of us long time Microsoft users upset is that most of the additions could have been made to the system without breaking the 4C's. As an enterprise software developer, it's even worse on the server side (Server 2012) where most users will use it in windowed mode (either remote desktop or VM) and we are subject to the same touch interface usability issues. Why? As an investor as well, I'm kind of upset at Microsoft's waste of resources and critical mistake in building a tablet OS from a desktop OS instead of from the more than suitable and much more analogous Windows Phone OS.
Why not give Metro a chance first? I think it's especiaally good for the less techsavvy. When I set it up for my parents, I installed some basic Windows 8 apps like Skype and Wikipedia ant then pinned all the relevant apps to the start screen. They barely need to go to the desktop at all and apps like Skype and Mail are really nice and easy to use.
Out of my sister, uncle, and parents no one has complained about Windows 8 yet.
345triangle
Member
play a whole bunch of games, use cellular data, comfortably read a magazine or newspaper, use any number of the literally thousands of excellent and creative apps that work better on a touch screen...
my ipad does more than my macbook air, not less. windows 8 is an attempt to bring that advantage to traditional PCs.
The entire appeal of Windows on a tablet is that it is not an upscaled phone OS.
It is though pretty much. They've also moved and added a few bits, whilst making stuff quicker.
dragonelite
Member
I have the same experience i use 8 like i use 7 im actually a bit more productive because of lower left menu(winkey + x).
Dont forget the market is bigger apple has a bigger share in that market.
Tablets are taking over desktop tasks like browsing and others(not for me personally)
What most people use the desktop for i think is producing text documents which don't need a lot of power so upgrading can wait.
So you don't have a problem with most things only the fact there's no physical start button to click?
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Not surprised, businesses aren't upgrading because:
a) they've only just gone through an upgrade cycle to win7 over the last couple of years.
b) the gui is no good, and the programs that roll it back such as classic shell are not feasible in a business environment
a) they've only just gone through an upgrade cycle to win7 over the last couple of years.
b) the gui is no good, and the programs that roll it back such as classic shell are not feasible in a business environment
I see, Start8 does look neat and gels better because of that. I don't see a skin like that for Classic Shell at a first glance, but it will most likely pop up sooner than later since they even have skinning tutorials on their site.
That's the thing though, both my mother and my sister-in-law are in that weird in-between place of being and not being tech savvy. They know more than enough to get around the normal Windows OS when needed, but they often touch upon some hurdles, and after trying Metro for a day I felt it would cause more trouble than not for them having to adapt for no reason than just because. They just want to keep using their programs as it is and have all sorts of idiosyncrasies that depend on the bar and using things windowed, so keeping them in desktop mode with the bar is the easiest solution.
On the other hand, I'll be building a Windows PC soon and if I go with Windows 8 I plan to try default Metro for longer, but I'm the sort of person who manages to have fun with this kind of thing, which is not exactly their case. Some of the changes had the possibility of leading to some minor frustrations that I found best to avoid.
The people who tend to have the most problem with 8 from what I can see are the "experts."
For an hour or so they are as clueless as the punters they try to impress with their knowledge, so they run off whilst telling everyone that in their expert opinion they should avoid it.
People who aren't full of pre conceived ideas just seem to get on with it after the initial learning curve.
I'm only two minutess into the video, but I can already tell that guy's an idiot. How can it be 'unusable' ('without hyperbole') when millions and millions of people use it every day without problems?
Maybe MS should fire all the usability experts that worked on Windows 8 and hire that tech blogger instead ^^
I think they absolutely made the right call extending Windows to tablets. Right now a lot of people look at tablets as something different from a PC, when they are really PCs in a different form factor. Being able to use all the different input mechanisms is an advantage. Like Bill Buxton always says: Everything is best for something and worst for something else. In my future computing devices I'd certainly like to have touch, pen, mouse and keyboard support.
Edit: I have no idea how he got the goblin to come up and fart in his face...
Edit 2: It he had spent like ten minutes to learn about the OS he would have known how to close an app (and that he didn't have to)
Edit 3: Do these four Cs actually exist in usability or did he make up the terms? When I google them I mostly find his video ^^
Edit 4: That guy sounds like Dopeyfish. From his expertise in usability to his love for DOS
Yeah, I can see that happening. I can be considered an "expert" as far as usage goes, but constantly switching between Windows and OSX made me more patient to change. That's not to say I think the changes in Windows 8 are for the better or not, I don't have a fully formed personal opinion on it yet, but I do dislike that they don't allow you to just turn on the start bar and stay in desktop if you wish to do so. It would be like Apple forcing the dashboard, launchpad and fullscreen mode for new apps while removing the dock and having the menu bar work differently when that doesn't need to be the case. When you go about things this way, instead of having people slowly open to change you get them defensive from the start. It's always better to introduce new features by showing why they're cool to use instead of outright removing options.
Anyone who watches that video and simply dismisses everything he brings up as "lol he doesn't know what he's talking about" is making it very easy for everyone to ignore you. The problem of movements being interpreted as swipes is bad design. That you need to know specific key words to type in to get to certain things is bad design. Whether you like Windows 8 or not his complaints are real.
And this is not the case with the win7 start menu?
The fact that this idiot labels the OS unusable is enough reason to discount the video considering the fact that I'm using the os to watch and respond to his stupid video with no problem whatsoever.
Nope. Do you know the complaint I'm talking about in the video?
marathonfool
Member
There's nothing wrong with Windows 8 compared to Vista. It's a great OS that hasn't made me think about it since my first week.
For desktop users, it's just not that much of an upgrade from Win7.
For desktop users, it's just not that much of an upgrade from Win7.
HollovVpo1nt
Banned
It doesn't matter how good of an OS Windows 8 is after weeks of use. You shouldn't have force yourself to learn a new OS if you're not enjoying it and not liking it.
The OS should be very clear and easy to use from the the start. A new user can not immediatly work on the OS and therefor will not cope with the OS.
The OS should be very clear and easy to use from the the start. A new user can not immediatly work on the OS and therefor will not cope with the OS.
You don't need to swipe with mouse at all, there is no such thing o_o
typing what you want in start menu is exactly how people do it on 7, there isn't any difference in search, maybe it's faster though, if you want something frequently you just pin a shortcut.
you should probably go fact check what this youtube guy is saying before taking everything he says for granted.
or the youtube guy could actually show his points with proper footage from the OS instead of silly comics, but then he wouldn't be the one laughing.
You either never watched the video or have trouble understanding English. He was using a touchpad. Movement from the far edge of the touchpad is interpreted as a swipe motion. Did you see the part where the settings window is empty? That never happens in 7.
Uno Venova
Banned
People probably would have bought win8 then.
The touchpad thing may come from bad drivers or a bad touchpad. There's nothing wrong about the edge gestures on touchpads. A lot of people even think they are very helpful for navigating Windows 8. The way he points out the conceptual differences between touchpad and touchscreen is ridiculous.
Having to type specific things to find specific things is nothing new.
Touchpads have been causing input issues on all OS'S since the days they were invented, what's your point?
Windows 8 with its gestures is very much improved by the way. Saying that it's not perfect and I doubt any os ever will be in this regard.
That settings thing sounds like a game changer.....
An empty window you say. Devastating for MS that as there's no way it could be fixed.
Bornstellar
Member
When I first installed Windows 8, I hated it simply because it was unfamiliar. After that initial 24 hour period, I began to fall in love with the design. It is, IMHO, a superior OS.
With normal use something like that happens and no indication is given why or how. That you would excuse that makes your bias clear.
And yes, the scenario he describes in the video is something new for Windows.
What's my point? Both of you are too far gone.
To Far Away Times
Member
People not jumping to Vista was a smart move as Vista was shit.
But Windows 8 is Windows 7 done better, and if you don't want to use the start menu just hit the windows key and you're using an faster, more improved version of Windows 7.
But Windows 8 is Windows 7 done better, and if you don't want to use the start menu just hit the windows key and you're using an faster, more improved version of Windows 7.
The complaints are real if you are the dude in the video, sure. He mentioned he taught himself linux and that he isn't dumb, yet he couldn't figure out how to move his mouse across the screen, really? You don't have to type in recovery, or clean install to re-install windows - just go to control panel like the rest of the populace. All the same continuity is there, right and left click, like it was since the beginning of time.
Honestly I figured this shit out in 5 minutes, and can't for the life of me understand how someone of his apparently education in operating systems couldn't.
It's his opinion of bad design, and it's grasping at straws at most. He shit on the ribbon design also, fuck him.
I did, if there is something wrong with his cheap touchpad that's not a problem with windows, you don't have to swipe to navigate anything. the gestures not working on his touchpad is another matter all together.
He was trying to make an install disc, since the computer he bought didn't come with one.
It wasn't a problem with the gestures not working. You seriously did not understand his issue at all.
My bias comes from using the OS daily unlike yourself and appreciating it has its ups and its downs just like every other os I've used. I look forward to using my pc running 8 more than the one running 7 to be frank.
I haven't gone anywhere by the way, whatever that was supposed to mean.
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