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[PK Gaming]

I really don't get what you and bulbs are even saying... IV's or Inherent Values are just that, inherent to a Pokemon. Like genetics, you are born with certain traits that are un changeable, for us that's height, eye color etc. In Pokemon, that's IVs. Bulba is calling for IVs to be more like EVs, which I don't really understand. We already have a way to manipulate our pokemon's stats, why would we need to have two different hidden values doing the same thing?
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand people's beef with IVs. But if you don't agree with these inherent, unchangeable stats, the solution isn't changing them to be more like EVs, but to eliminate them entirely. An IV that can be manipulated is no longer an IV. And if you want EVs to be different or to affect Pokemon stats even more, I understand that too.

Sorry chief, but the idea of "inherent values=genetics" holds no water to a competitive player. Don't get me wrong, to a competitive player, IVs are more than a 2nd set of stat values that can(not) be manipulated. IVs can always tweaked to achieve different things. Some Pokemon use 0 speed IVs, because they are Trick Room users as lowered IVs can decrease a given stat, or other Pokemon use certain IV spreads to achieve certain Hidden Power types.

Under the current system you need to understand that players will continue to RNG or even hack their Pokemon to achieve the desired Pokemon for competitive play. Even with the recent changes in breeding, it takes too long to achieve a desired Pokemon. Manipulatable IVs don't really change anything; sure the idea of genetics is gone, but players. For instance, I can actually use that ingame Zorua with 30 IVs across the board in competitive play if I could manipulate its IVs. In addition to that, they make 90% of Pokemon unviable. If you're lucky enough to get a Pokemon with the right nature ingame, it's likely that you won't be able to use it competitively because of its poor IVs. I don't know about you, but I hate the idea of the best Pokemon being genetically engineered pokegods that have come into existence after XXX hours of grinding.

However, as I said in one of my last posts, I'm pretty happy with the current balance. If you max out an EV stat you get a 63 point change at lvl 100, while IVs can only alter a stat 31 points. So training still has a bigger influence than genetics, by more than a factor of 2.

That's not good enough for most players. After all, if you have an imperfect speed IV, your Pokemon is guaranteed to lose speed ties against opposing Pokemon with the same Speed stat. That's not very good, Pokemoin is game of numbers after all.

 

[Winterfang]

While I believe IV's should be just flat out removed. (is not like it affect the metagame that much, since everyone max out anyway)

How will moves like Hidden Power work?

 

[Berordn]

While I believe IV's should be just flat out removed. (is not like it affect the metagame that much, since everyone max out anyway)

How will moves like Hidden Power work?

Assuming nothing else changes it could still be dependent on the PID, but maybe always work at full power and instead you're breeding for a certain type for it instead of both type and power.

I would like to see them do something to IVs. Right now it's restrictive since it's so time consuming, even with how good it's gotten to train a newly hatched Pokemon from the gate. Every game I try to get into raising a competitive team, but in the end I always just give up and GTS legal ones in to use in Frontier or Subway or whatever. But then that's unfair to everyone who actually does breed them legitimately, so I never do the online tournaments.

 

[Willxc123]

Sorry chief, but the idea of "inherent values=genetics" holds no water to a competitive player. Don't get me wrong, to a competitive player, IVs are more than a 2nd set of stat values that can(not) be manipulated. IVs can always tweaked to achieve different things. Some Pokemon use 0 speed IVs, because they are Trick Room users as lowered IVs can decrease a given stat, or other Pokemon use certain IV spreads to achieve certain Hidden Power types.

Under the current system you need to understand that players will continue to RNG or even hack their Pokemon to achieve the desired Pokemon for competitive play. Even with the recent changes in breeding, it takes too long to achieve a desired Pokemon. Manipulatable IVs don't really change anything; sure the idea of genetics is gone, but players. For instance, I can actually use that ingame Zorua with 30 IVs across the board in competitive play if I could manipulate its IVs. In addition to that, they make 90% of Pokemon unviable. If you're lucky enough to get a Pokemon with the right nature ingame, it's likely that you won't be able to use it competitively because of its poor IVs. I don't know about you, but I hate the idea of the best Pokemon being genetically engineered pokegods that have come into existence after XXX hours of grinding.



That's not good enough for most players. After all, if you have an imperfect speed IV, your Pokemon is guaranteed to lose speed ties against opposing Pokemon with the same Speed stat. That's not very good, Pokemoin is game of numbers after all.

Did you even read my whole post? I think you got to the part about genetics and stopped reading. My argument is more one of terminology. IVs, because of their name "Inherent Values," cannot and should not be changeable. If you didn't know, the definition of inherent is "existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute." So permanent. Inseparable. Unchangeable.

I said I would even understand you calling for the elimination of IVs (I didnt say why, but yes its because of its tie to RNGers, hackers etc). And I also said changing EVs even more would also be understandable.
However, on a personal level I like how things are. I am not a competitive battler. And I imagine you aren't either. So IVs for me are more of a fun post game distraction. It gives me hours of extra content once I finish a game, seeing how close I can get to breeding a perfect Pokemon.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I eat Oreos

 

[BTHR Zero X]

What about Mienshao or Walrein, Boss Doggie?

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

Digimon was made as a response to pokemon, right? I don't remember.

 

[JoeM86]

IVs that you can manipulatable IVs would go a long way towards making Pokemon significantly more accessible on a competitive level. Because let's be honest here, the Pokemon you see in comp play(VGC play) all have perfect IVs, which means they are usually RNGed, edited or hacked. There are was even a VGC player who intentionally ran a team with 6 shinies for some reason, and there no doubt in my mind that it was RNGed. The difference between a Pokemon with optimal IVs & a regular Pokemon is enormous. I'd be cool if there was a way to close to gap without completely ditching a Pokemon, and using a new one.

Sorry but no. IVs are designed to be like this. They should not change the entire system just because of a minority, and that's what the competitive scene is, who demand perfection and are happy to cheat in order to achieve it.

IVs are designed to create individuality of the Pokémon. They should not be editable, or manipulatable outside of breeding. They are genetics, they're able to be manipulated through breeding in a method that could be compared to natural selection.

IVs create diversity. Without that, the game would get boring, especially the competitive.

This is so not how I wanted to begin my NeoGAF tenure :/

 

[PK Gaming]

Did you even read my whole post? I think you got to the part about genetics and stopped reading. My argument is more one of terminology. IVs, because of their name "Inherent Values," cannot and should not be changeable. If you didn't know, the definition of inherent is "existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute." So permanent. Inseparable. Unchangeable.

I said I would even understand you calling for the elimination of IVs (I didnt say why, but yes its because of its tie to RNGers, hackers etc). And I also said changing EVs even more would also be understandable.
However, on a personal level I like how things are. I am not a competitive battler. And I imagine you aren't either. So IVs for me are more of a fun post game distraction. It gives me hours of extra content once I finish a game, seeing how close I can get to breeding a perfect Pokemon.

I did read your whole post, and I understand what you're trying to say, I really do. It's just honestly... don't care. In fact, I hate the idea of genetics being in Pokemon. I'm not too plussed with genetics in real life you see, and I don't like seeing them replicated in a Pokemon game either. BTW I usually look at IVs with digust. Permanent. Unfixable. Blargh. Unless they're flawless 31s across the board.

BTW, I would never want them removed; being able to manipulate IVs is important, as i've mentioned earlier. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. To be honest, your the first person i've seen who likes the idea of IVs in Pokemon.

And I am a competitive Pokemon player >_>

Sorry but no. IVs are designed to be like this. They should not change the entire system just because of a minority, and that's what the competitive scene is, who demand perfection and are happy to cheat in order to achieve it.

IVs are designed to create individuality of the Pokémon. They should not be editable, or manipulatable outside of breeding. They are genetics, they're able to be manipulated through breeding in a method that could be compared to natural selection.

IVs create diversity. Without that, the game would get boring, especially the competitive.

This is so not how I wanted to begin my NeoGAF tenure :/

Easy Serebii, it's just a difference of opinion. Relax and soak this site in, we can talk about plenty of things outside of IVs you know.

 

[Winterfang]

Sorry but no. IVs are designed to be like this. They should not change the entire system just because of a minority, and that's what the competitive scene is, who demand perfection and are happy to cheat in order to achieve it.

IVs are designed to create individuality of the Pokémon. They should not be editable, or manipulatable outside of breeding. They are genetics, they're able to be manipulated through breeding in a method that could be compared to natural selection.

IVs create diversity. Without that, the game would get boring, especially the competitive.

This is so not how I wanted to start my NeoGAF tenure :/

Boring how exactly? IV's don't make the game any more fun, it's just random numbers. There's already hundreds of pokes all with different stats,types and moves. You can have 2 of the same poke and they will be different enough already in their moves,EV train and natures. There's no a real need for IV's. In my opinion of course.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Digimon was made as a response to pokemon, right? I don't remember.

Unrelated really - they offer two different subjects. Digimon was made to have a Tamagotchi toy catered towards boys whereas Pokemon is an RPG using mons as party members and recruiting them via catching.

What about Mienshao or Walrein, Boss Doggie?

Sealeo has better mustache

 

[JoeM86]

Boring how exactly? IV's don't make the game any more fun, it's just random numbers. There's already hundreds of pokes all with different stats,types and moves. You can have 2 of the same poke and they will be different enough already in their moves,EV train and natures. There's no a real need for IV's. In my opinion of course.

Hypothetical situation based on jokes about Smash Bros removing all extra bits: Eevee VS Eevee. Both Level 50. Both with the same EVs. IVs have been removed. They both have Tackle. The game would make random choices each turn as to who goes first. That's not fun. It can work with other Pokémon with identical speeds.

I know my example is a bit bleh, but by having all Pokémon of the same species identical, it takes some of the fun out of it.

I just want a way to prevent flawless Pokémon, otherwise I am very very happy with the IV system, what it represents, and how it has been implemented for manipulation. It is to represent genetics, the breeding is comparative to natural selection

 

[BTHR Zero X]

Sealeo has better mustache

But Walrein's is so big and bushie you could lose a Sealeo in there xD

 

[Berordn]

I know my example is a bit bleh, but by having all Pokémon of the same species identical, it takes some of the fun out of it.

Nobody's asking for identical Pokemon though. Even if only IVs were removed we'd have Natures, EVs, Moves (many of which would still be restricted to breeding), held items and abilities, all of which offer a ton of variation.

 

[Winterfang]

Hypothetical situation based on jokes about Smash Bros removing all extra bits: Eevee VS Eevee. Both Level 50. Both with the same EVs. IVs have been removed. They both have Tackle. The game would make random choices each turn as to who goes first. That's not fun. It can work with other Pokémon with identical speeds.

I know my example is a bit bleh, but by having all Pokémon of the same species identical, it takes some of the fun out of it.

I just want a way to prevent flawless Pokémon, otherwise I am very very happy with the IV system, what it represents, and how it has been implemented for manipulation. It is to represent genetics, the breeding is comparative to natural selection

There's still different ways. One Eevee could be scarfed while the other use a different set. And still speed tied do happen anyway. Because people still max the IV's, so in the end it won't change much competitively. Except opening the grounds for more people to actually have legit teams. I for example love to full EV train my pokes, breed for right natures and levels them up, but never play with them online because they will be automatically worse anyway.

 

[Boss Doggie]

What if XY introduced 4th ability via some DNA-unlocking shit, but it comes at a price - you cannot revert said Pokemon's abilities!

But Walrein's is so big and bushie you could lose a Sealeo in there xD

He looks like Beethoven

 

[PK Gaming]

Hypothetical situation based on jokes about Smash Bros removing all extra bits: Eevee VS Eevee. Both Level 50. Both with the same EVs. IVs have been removed. They both have Tackle. The game would make random choices each turn as to who goes first. That's not fun. It can work with other Pokémon with identical speeds.

I know my example is a bit bleh, but by having all Pokémon of the same species identical, it takes some of the fun out of it.

I just want a way to prevent flawless Pokémon, otherwise I am very very happy with the IV system, what it represents, and how it has been implemented for manipulation. It is to represent genetics, the breeding is comparative to natural selection

What about in situations where one eevee has 25 speed IVs and 15 def IVs while the other on has 3? and 0 defense IVs? That hardly seems like a fair fight imo. Serebii, i'm confused; the scenarios where 2 unequal Pokemon will never happen in competitive play, so what are you referring to? Fights between friends? If IVs were manipulatable, these wouldn't factor in fights between friends since I doubt they'd care. We've already established that nearly every competitive battler uses perfect IVs, so if IVs being changeable would literally only affect them, since nobody else cares. Wouldn't it be better if players didn't have to "cheat" to be on par with other players?

Winterfang's point is perfect. I still have a Naive Infernape. It's my starter from from gen IV. That's a decent nature on an Infernape, and I can EV train to make it stronger, but i'll never be able to use it in a competitive environment (VGCs, wifi) because of its poor IVs. Instead, i'm forced to breed-grind for the right Infernape, an Infernape that I don't particularly care for since I bioengineered it. Wouldn't it be great if the Pokemon you started with ingame could viable?

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Would love a mode where IV's don't come into play.

 

[Willxc123]

Hypothetical situation based on jokes about Smash Bros removing all extra bits: Eevee VS Eevee. Both Level 50. Both with the same EVs. IVs have been removed. They both have Tackle. The game would make random choices each turn as to who goes first. That's not fun. It can work with other Pokémon with identical speeds.

I know my example is a bit bleh, but by having all Pokémon of the same species identical, it takes some of the fun out of it.

I just want a way to prevent flawless Pokémon, otherwise I am very very happy with the IV system, what it represents, and how it has been implemented for manipulation. It is to represent genetics, the breeding is comparative to natural selection

I just don't know if this is really possible. No matter what GameFreak does, the craziest, die-hardiest Pokemon fans will find a way to make their Pokemon the absolute best they can be. Unless GameFreak adds some sort of random, changing uncalculatable hidden stat ( which no one would want), people will find a way to manipulate their pokemon's stats to be the absolute best possible.

Also, I think the main reason other people are complaining about IVs is because they still find IV breeding to difficult or time consuming and don't want to put in the necessary work to get a perfect Pokemon. It really isn't all that hard, a perfectly EV'd and IV'd Pokemon with the proper nature, etc. can be obtained in less than 10 hours. Do you really want IVs to be so easily changeable that practically anyone could do it? The competitive battle scene would become a nightmare. There is still a ton of depth for regular players, in natures, abilities, EVs, hold items, movesets, etc. True competitive battling is and should remain a niche, elite subset of players. Players who are willing to put in the time and effort to obtain a perfect Pokemon. And yes some people ruin it with hacking, but let me tell you there is no more satisfying a feeling than breeding dozens of pokes and finally getting the perfect one.

 

[JoeM86]

I really don't see why you ask for the IV system to change to capitulate to the competitive environment. If it wasn't for RNG-abuse or hacking, we would not be seeing so many flawless Pokémon in competitive scenes

Yes, there are other ways you can MAKE the Pokémon different, but this is genetic diversity. It is the intent. Removing it would just screw up how the games are.

I just don't know if this is really possible. No matter what GameFreak does, the craziest, die-hardiest Pokemon fans will find a way to make their Pokemon the absolute best they can be. Unless GameFreak adds some sort of random, changing uncalculatable hidden stat ( which no one would want), people will find a way to manipulate their pokemon's stats to be the absolute best possible.

Also, I think the main reason other people are complaining about IVs is because they still find IV breeding to difficult or time consuming and don't want to put in the necessary work to get a perfect Pokemon. It really isn't all that hard, a perfectly EV'd and IV'd Pokemon with the proper nature, etc. can be obtained in less than 10 hours. Do you really want IVs to be so easily changeable that practically anyone could do it? The competitive battle scene would become a nightmare. There is still a ton of depth for regular players, in natures, abilities, EVs, hold items, movesets, etc. True competitive battling is and should remain a niche, elite subset of players. Players who are willing to put in the time and effort to obtain a perfect Pokemon. And yes some people ruin it with hacking, but let me tell you there is no more satisfying a feeling than breeding dozens of pokes and finally getting the perfect one.

Yeah, it would be tricky to do. It's just a pipe-dream really

 

[HiddenWings]

I really don't see why you ask for the IV system to change to capitulate to the competitive environment. If it wasn't for RNG-abuse or hacking, we would not be seeing so many flawless Pokémon in competitive scenes

Yes, there are other ways you can MAKE the Pokémon different, but this is genetic diversity. It is the intent. Removing it would just screw up how the games are.



Yeah, it would be tricky to do. It's just a pipe-dream really

Even without RNG, you can get reasonably close to perfect stats if you put in a ton of work. (And time. An awful lot of time.) People who battle competitively would still put in this effort.

 

[JoeM86]

Even without RNG, you can get reasonably close to perfect stats if you put in a ton of work. (And time. An awful lot of time.) People who battle competitively would still put in this effort.

Possibly. We'll see with Gen VI

 

[PK Gaming]

Serebii

You said that if we allow the manipulation of IVs to happen, then Pokemon will eventually get ruined, therefore we should not be allowed to mess with IVs right? That's a logical fallacy, a slippery slope if you will. I can already tell you what will happen if we removed IVs; Competitive minded players wouldn't bother hacking or rnger = less cheating involved. This wouldn't affect casual players-- in fact, it would equalize things imo. B2/W2's very own PWT encourages perfect IVs, since your opponents have perfect IVs themselves.

I fail to see how this would cut into Pokemon's diversity. We still have natures, abilities, EVs, movesets, IVs (I never called for their removal!) Hidden Powers, items, forms. I just don't see any discernible downside, outside of this notion that manipulatable IVs ruins the uniqueness of individual Pokemon.

Do you really want IVs to be so easily changeable that practically anyone could do it? The competitive battle scene would become a nightmare.

Really? We've already established that competitive players already use the best of the best. Usually via hacking, GTS, or RNG. It would just allow more players to partake in competitive battling; I see this as a good thing.

 

[Qurupeke]

No news but still many new pages. :3

 

[Berordn]

I really don't see why you ask for the IV system to change to capitulate to the competitive environment. If it wasn't for RNG-abuse or hacking, we would not be seeing so many flawless Pokémon in competitive scenes

Sure we would. Gen IV added more ways to inherit traits from the parents, changing it from Gen III's inheriting 1-2 IVs. Three IVs are always passed, the Power items can guarantee a certain stat gets passed, and Everstone nature passing started working on both genders.

Gen V made it even easier, by removing the connection between IV and PID, both of which can be determined separate from each other. It also added the higher chance of females passing abilities.

Every single change to breeding has been to assist in getting the IVs you want with the Nature and Ability you want. Even if the pseudo RNG wasn't cracked, flawless Pokemon would still exist and competitive players would still be using them.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

PUT YO MUTHAFUCKIN CHOPPERS UP IF YA FEEL THIS!

I dig da feel, broseph, it all cool up in dis bitch.

—This has to be the first time someone's macro'd a post I made. Also: are you guys talking about Pokémon music anytime soon? IVs are boring and we never get anywhere discussin' them.

 

[Berordn]

I dig da feel, broseph, it all cool up in dis bitch.

—This has to be the first time someone's macro'd a post I made. Also: are you guys talking about Pokémon music anytime soon? IVs are boring and we never get anywhere discussin' them.

You ought to just make another appreciation thread, this one's turning into an echo chamber.

 

[JoeM86]

Serebii

You said that if we allow the manipulation of IVs to happen, then Pokemon will eventually get ruined, therefore we should not be allowed to mess with IVs right? That's a logical fallacy, a slippery slope if you will. I can already tell you what will happen if we removed IVs; Competitive minded players wouldn't bother hacking or rnger = less cheating involved. This wouldn't affect casual players-- in fact, it would equalize things imo. B2/W2's very own PWT encourages perfect IVs, since your opponents have perfect IVs themselves.

I fail to see how this would cut into Pokemon's diversity. We still have natures, abilities, EVs, movesets, IVs (I never called for their removal!) Hidden Powers, items, forms. I just don't see any discernible downside, outside of this notion that manipulatable IVs ruins the uniqueness of individual Pokemon.

I never said Pokémon would be ruined with the manipulation of IVs. I said manipulating it goes against the intent and what it stands for. It's the removal I am firmly against. Pokémon are meant to be different before you put training.

Take two cats, both tabbys. They are not the exact same cat, they have different genetic material. One could have inherited more defined size while another has got more defined muscles. This is what IVs are representing.

 

[EvilMario]

Serebii

You said that if we allow the manipulation of IVs to happen, then Pokemon will eventually get ruined, therefore we should not be allowed to mess with IVs right? That's a logical fallacy, a slippery slope if you will. I can already tell you what will happen if we removed IVs; Competitive minded players wouldn't bother hacking or rnger = less cheating involved. This wouldn't affect casual players-- in fact, it would equalize things imo. B2/W2's very own PWT encourages perfect IVs, since your opponents have perfect IVs themselves.

I fail to see how this would cut into Pokemon's diversity. We still have natures, abilities, EVs, movesets, IVs (I never called for their removal!) Hidden Powers, items, forms. I just don't see any discernible downside, outside of this notion that manipulatable IVs ruins the uniqueness of individual Pokemon.



Really? We've already established that competitive players already use the best of the best. Usually via hacking, GTS, or RNG. It would just allow more players to partake in competitive battling; I see this as a good thing.

From the Lava Pool comes this idea: The easy solution for easing the time sink for the competitive scene (and making it more accessible for players not keen on RNG) is to make all IVs 31 in online battles and tournaments. Or at least let you set them (for the sake of Trick Room and Hidden Power). You could even have a ladder where you have maxed IVs, and one where they're standard.

In game, you can still have the IV range and let people not interested in competitive battling continue to experience the sort of Pokemon they want. And if a newcomer wants to try out the competitive scene, they're not immediately held back by their lack of in-depth breeding knowledge and RNG.

 

[Winterfang]

On the brighter side of things. What's the first pokemon you ever saw?

I was changing channels as a kid, when I saw Golem. And was like yay cartoons, then saw Ash/Pikachu fighting him. I don't remember much, other than I kept checking the channel regularly until I found out the WB slot saturdays and got hooked. Didn't even knew the games existed until after 3 years after it.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

You ought to just make another appreciation thread, this one's turning into an echo chamber.

I've already made the Pokémon Music Appreciation Thread. People lost interest in it after a while. Feh. I need to make the Game Music OT anyway.

I'm automatically assuming Pikachu as the first Pokémon I ever saw (since I was too young for the games yet young enough for the anime). But I'll never know anyway. My memory fails me out of dislike for my younger self.

 

[JoeM86]

Sure we would. Gen IV added more ways to inherit traits from the parents, changing it from Gen III's inheriting 1-2 IVs. Three IVs are always passed, the Power items can guarantee a certain stat gets passed, and Everstone nature passing started working on both genders.

Gen V made it even easier, by removing the connection between IV and PID, both of which can be determined separate from each other. It also added the higher chance of females passing abilities.

Every single change to breeding has been to assist in getting the IVs you want with the Nature and Ability you want. Even if the pseudo RNG wasn't cracked, flawless Pokemon would still exist and competitive players would still be using them.

I strongly disagree. While they have made it easier to manipulate it, that doesn't deviate from their intent. Yes, there would still be flawless Pokémon. Hell, I managed to capture one that was near perfect, however they WOULD be far less commonplace.

 

[PK Gaming]

I never said Pokémon would be ruined with the manipulation of IVs. I said manipulating it goes against the intent and what it stands for. It's the removal I am firmly against. Pokémon are meant to be different before you put training.

Take two cats, both tabbys. They are not the exact same cat, they have different genetic material. One could have inherited more defined size while another has got more defined muscles. This is what IVs are representing.

Well yeah I get that, I did take grade 11 science you know

Because of GF's intent to loosely follow genetics, we end up with a host of super-pokemon, that are almost exclusively used over the regular or "normal" Pokemon. You'd be ok with keeping IVs static, even if it results in regular Pokemon being unusable in competitive play? I can't fault you on having an opinion, but know that my stance is completely different from yours.

Hopefully gen VI allows us to manipulate IVs even more through breeding. They've been slowly making breeding easier for us, and I really appreciate that. Let's hope that they cut down breeding from a 10hour project~ to a 3-1 hour project.

From the Lava Pool comes this idea: The easy solution for easing the time sink for the competitive scene (and making it more accessible for players not keen on RNG) is to make all IVs 31 in online battles and tournaments. Or at least let you set them (for the sake of Trick Room and Hidden Power). You could even have a ladder where you have maxed IVs, and one where they're standard.

In game, you can still have the IV range and let people not interested in competitive battling continue to experience the sort of Pokemon they want. And if a newcomer wants to try out the competitive scene, they're not immediately held back by their lack of in-depth breeding knowledge and RNG.

Very cool idea man. I don't think they'd ever let us set them though, it looks like they're still trying to keep IVs hush-hush.

 

[papercamm]

On the brighter side of things. What's the first pokemon you ever saw?

I was changing channels as a kid, when I saw Golem. And was like yay cartoons, then saw Ash/Pikachu fighting him. I don't remember much, other than I kept checking the channel regularly until I found out the WB slot saturdays and got hooked. Didn't even knew the games existed until after 3 years after it.

Ivysaur. I saw that episode where bulbasaurs evolve by going into the secret forest or something.

 

[JoeM86]

Well yeah I get that, I did take grade 11 science you know

Because of GF's intent to loosely follow genetics, we end up with a host of super-pokemon, that are almost exclusively used over the regular or "normal" Pokemon. You'd be ok with keeping IVs static, even if it results in regular Pokemon being unusable in competitive play? I can't fault you on having an opinion, but know that my stance is completely different from yours.

Hopefully gen VI allows us to manipulate IVs even more through breeding. They've been slowly making breeding easier for us, and I really appreciate that. Let's hope that they cut down breeding from a 10hour project~ to a 3-1 hour project.

I would be absolutely fine with them making it easier to breed, thus going forward on the possibilities to manipulate natural selection. I wouldn't be fine with them being editable on the Pokémon using items, or removed straight out.

 

[ohlawd]

Ivysaur. I saw that episode where bulbasaurs evolve by going into the secret forest or something.

bulba-bulba-bulbasaur~

that was a nice episode.

 

[Berordn]

I strongly disagree. While they have made it easier to manipulate it, that doesn't deviate from their intent. Yes, there would still be flawless Pokémon. Hell, I managed to capture one that was near perfect, however they WOULD be far less commonplace.

If they've made it easier to manipulate, why would they be any less common? If you don't have a flawless team in a competitive match, you're not playing with a full deck and you're giving the opponent the advantage.

Their intent is clearly to let you manipulate and control your Pokemon's stats. What you find in the wild during the campaign is one thing, but once that's done, the depth is in everything else.

And that creates a dissonance between competitive batting and everything else. When the IV Judge tells you that your favorite team member is "fairly average," that's not encouraging me to keep using him. Battle Tower would chew you up for trying to. They've continued to give you tools in-game to check and raise awareness of IVs, the idea is pretty obvious that you tweak them to your liking.

 

[Willxc123]

Serebii

You said that if we allow the manipulation of IVs to happen, then Pokemon will eventually get ruined, therefore we should not be allowed to mess with IVs right? That's a logical fallacy, a slippery slope if you will. I can already tell you what will happen if we removed IVs; Competitive minded players wouldn't bother hacking or rnger = less cheating involved. This wouldn't affect casual players-- in fact, it would equalize things imo. B2/W2's very own PWT encourages perfect IVs, since your opponents have perfect IVs themselves.

I fail to see how this would cut into Pokemon's diversity. We still have natures, abilities, EVs, movesets, IVs (I never called for their removal!) Hidden Powers, items, forms. I just don't see any discernible downside, outside of this notion that manipulatable IVs ruins the uniqueness of individual Pokemon.



Really? We've already established that competitive players already use the best of the best. Usually via hacking, GTS, or RNG. It would just allow more players to partake in competitive battling; I see this as a good thing.

Making IVs easy to manipulate is essentially the same as removing them. Everyone would simply maximize their pokemon's IVs (or not quite maximize, optimize rather, in order to obtain certain Hidden Power moves, or for a trick room set, as you said). Therefore the purpose of IVs would be eliminated because everyone would have perfect Pokemon. There would be no difference between pokemon at the top. Yes, it is already like that, I know. But I guess where we disagree is whether or not we think making perfect pokemon more accessible would be a good thing. I don't think it would. I don't want a flood of kids jumping into the wifi battles with perfect pokemon, spamming fireblast and earthquake.

 

[backlot]

Before RNG exploits became possible I used to breed Pokemon with as near to perfect IV's as possible for my competitive battles. 3 to 5 perfect IV's and the rest above 25 at least. I'll probably do this again in gen 6 if the RNG for it is never figured out. Competitive players are never gonna just forget about IV's.

 

[Berordn]

I don't think it would. I don't want a flood of kids jumping into the wifi battles with perfect pokemon, spamming fireblast and earthquake.

Which would be decidedly easy to counter, and then the game shifts less from breeding and more to teaching you about strategies and mindgames.

 

[EvilMario]

Making IVs easy to manipulate is essentially the same as removing them. Everyone would simply maximize their pokemon's IVs (or not quite maximize, optimize rather, in order to obtain certain Hidden Power moves, or for a trick room set, as you said). Therefore the purpose of IVs would be eliminated because everyone would have perfect Pokemon. There would be no difference between pokemon at the top. Yes, it is already like that, I know. But I guess where we disagree is whether or not we think making perfect pokemon more accessible would be a good thing. I don't think it would. I don't want a flood of kids jumping into the wifi battles with perfect pokemon, spamming fireblast and earthquake.

Why not? It makes it far more accessible if all players are on an even playing field. It's not like lack of direct IV manipulation is going to stop the real hardcore competitive players from achieving perfect Pokemon in the end. They will commit the time to it and the pool of players that can compete will be smaller because of it. You are not going to lose to 'a flood of kids' because they have perfect IVs suddenly. You are going to lose to them because you are poor at team construction and prediction.

Before RNG exploits became possible I used to breed Pokemon with as near to perfect IV's as possible for my competitive battles. 3 to 5 perfect IV's and the rest above 25 at least. I'll probably do this again in gen 6 if the RNG for it is never figured out. Competitive players are never gonna just forget about IV's.

Indeed.

With the tools we have now, like forcing IVs to be passed down with Power items, natures being passed down from the mother 80% of the time, Everstones working on either partner.. it's so easy to breed near perfect Pokemon without RNG exploitation, in an hour. Losing RNG in Gen VI won't be a huge blow, unless they overhaul mechanics once more (I'm not entirely against it.. hell I want base stats to be rebalanced..). It's clear GF understands there's a desire for these tools as well, but they're just very.. very.. slowly.. trickling them out. I doubt we'll ever be able to enter numbers directly for IVs, but it's certain a very easy process to achieve something like 31/31/28/x/29/31 spread without RNG.

 

[JoeM86]

Before RNG exploits became possible I used to breed Pokemon with as near to perfect IV's as possible for my competitive battles. 3 to 5 perfect IV's and the rest above 25 at least. I'll probably do this again in gen 6 if the RNG for it is never figured out. Competitive players are never gonna just forget about IV's.

Yeah, and that's the best way to be. RNG abuse has just ruined how people view them. Nowadays, it's "flawless or get out", and that's ridiculous.

 

[Qurupeke]

Which would be decidedly easy to counter, and then the game shifts less from breeding and more to teaching you about strategies and mindgames.

Exactly what happens on the battle simulators. IMHO, it's really great to easily create a strong pokemon. But what will matter at the end, is the team. The moves you will choose, the items, the abilities and the Pokemon. And Nintendo could even create some tiers.

 

[PK Gaming]

I would be absolutely fine with them making it easier to breed, thus going forward on the possibilities to manipulate natural selection. I wouldn't be fine with them being editable on the Pokémon using items, or removed straight out.

Ok good to hear, i'm glad we agree on something ♪

btw, this goes without saying but I love serebii. I think we all do, and it's kind of tacky to say it, but i've wanted to tell you that in person for a long time. I've been going to that site on a semi-nearly basis since I was in middle-school haha.

Thanks for keeping the quality up.

PS: Why didn't you use Serebii as your neogaf handle?

 

[Gravijah]

Friendship will replace IVs.

Friendship is forever.

 

[Willxc123]

Why not? It makes it far more accessible if all players are on an even playing field. It's not like lack of direct IV manipulation is going to stop the real hardcore competitive players from achieving perfect Pokemon in the end. They will commit the time to it and the pool of players that can compete will be smaller because of it. You are not going to lose to 'a flood of kids' because they have perfect IVs suddenly. You are going to lose to them because you are poor at team construction and prediction.

No, I definitely agree with you there. I don't think I made my point well enough. I chose fireblast because it is a particulary powerful attack, but has low accuracy. I don't know why I mentioned earthquake. Anyway, yes, if your team is balanced and you have good prediction, (even if everyone has perfect IVs) you should win most of the time. But if a bunch of kids come on and spam low accuracy, powerful attacks and they have percect IVs they could still win occasionally. It's the same reasoning behind why competitions ban OHKO moves. I just dont want to have to deal with a flood of battlers, who the majority of the time I will beat handily, but occasionally will beat me by sheer luck. Neither of those is fun.

 

[JoeM86]

Ok good to hear, i'm glad we agree on something ♪

btw, this goes without saying but I love serebii. I think we all do, and it's kind of tacky to say it, but i've wanted to tell you that in person for a long time. I've been going to that site on a semi-nearly basis since I was in middle-school haha.

Thanks for keeping the quality up.

PS: Why didn't you use Serebii as your neogaf handle?

Glad you like it

It's a bit weird. They kept denying my account (probably due to my @serebii.net e-mail), I made this one and forgot about it. It then got activated yesterday and I can't have two accounts so ah well.

No, I definitely agree with you there. I don't think I made my point well enough. I chose fireblast because it is a particulary powerful attack, but has low accuracy. I don't know why I mentioned earthquake. Anyway, yes, if your team is balance and you have good prediction, (even if everyone has perfect IVs) you should win most of the time. But if a bunch of kids come on and spam low accuracy, powerful attacks and they have percect IVs they could still win occasinally. It's the same reasoning behind why competitions ban OHKO moves. I just dont want to have to deal with a flood of battlers, who the majority of the time I will beat handily, but occasionaly will beat me by sheer luck. Neither of those is fun.

I seldom manipulate IVs. I often go with what I've got, even sometimes ignoring nature (I'm very lazy), and I still win the majority of my battles. So, it really isn't necessary to give everyone flawless Pokémon straight out

 

[EvilMario]

No, I definitely agree with you there. I don't think I made my point well enough. I chose fireblast because it is a particulary powerful attack, but has low accuracy. I don't know why I mentioned earthquake. Anyway, yes, if your team is balance and you have good prediction, (even if everyone has perfect IVs) you should win most of the time. But if a bunch of kids come on and spam low accuracy, powerful attacks and they have percect IVs they could still win occasinally. It's the same reasoning behind why competitions ban OHKO moves. I just dont want to have to deal with a flood of battlers, who the majority of the time I will beat handily, but occasionaly will beat me by sheer luck. Neither of those is fun.

Pokemon is luck and minimizing risk. You are going to occasionally lose to less experienced, 'poor' players who rely on luck, or just get lucky. OHKO moves are not banned in VGC, and neither are evasion boosting moves, but you rarely see either used. The reason being your success relies on very unreliable moves (you will never climb any sort of ladder ranking, or win any tournament, depending on that strategy). If someone is going to beat you because of luck, you were going to lose regardless because it's Pokemon and luck is a factor. If you play online a lot, you're going to win most of the battles against the 'flood of kids' because you are a better player, but you will occasionally lose a match because you were haxed. It's just the way it goes. Allowing people to play on an even IV level won't really change any of that. The benefits of allowing new people to come in and help grow the competitive scene would far outweigh any con.

 

[backlot]

Friendship will replace IVs.

Friendship is forever.

I'd be ok with this. Breeding would be pretty trivialized without IV's though.

 

[injurai]

I'd be ok with this. Breeding would be pretty trivialized without IV's though.

Natures and movesets would still need breeding.