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[i-Lo]

enough already

Thank you.

 

[Punkster_NY]

What happens when you connect Durango's HDMI OUT to its HDMI IN:

hahaha made me chuckle.

/thread

 

[Jadedx]

Is this true? Is there a link or something? Pretty interesting.

It's based on the rumors from B3D and here.

 

[Raistlin]

Yeah most likely that amount.

You're missing the point.

 

[aegies]

Also, what Aegies said about getting good enough yeilds that they can enable the other two CUs for a total of 20 would be great...fingers crossed. Sony needs whatever boost they can get as their system won't be as modified and I don't see 3D stacking and all that cutting edge tech happening right now.

The inverse is much more likely.

 

[i-Lo]

You're missing the point.

You're alluding to it being GDDR5, correct?

 

[Plinko]

Honestly, is anybody expecting any difference between Orbis and Durango for third-paty performance?

 

[Phire Phox]

Honestly, is anybody expecting any difference between Orbis and Durango for third-paty performance?

one version will perform worse.

 

[Xamdou]

Honestly, is anybody expecting any difference between Orbis and Durango for third-paty performance?

Could be if there is a ram difference, we will just have to wait and see until they post the Orbis specs.

 

[i-Lo]

one version will perform worse.

Of that, certain are you?

Although, much like you, I have my fears as well.

 

[Card Boy]

Orbis: Madden
Durango: NFL 2K5
Wii U: Madden

Ouch and only posted under a minute after the warning.

 

[Boss Man]

Honestly, is anybody expecting any difference between Orbis and Durango for third-paty performance?

Not anything that anyone should care about. Then again, I didn't think the differences this generation were worth noting except for like two games (Bayonetta and pre-patch Skyrim).

 

[Jadedx]

I was looking back on a previous page and I read that this is based on specs from 9 months ago, is that true? If so a lot could have changed in that time.

 

[vasametropolis]

Throwing in bets now that Xbox third party is still superior.

 

[ScepticMatt]

Someone other than me should do a post summarizing all that we have learned in this thread, minus that comparisons.

Architekture (same for both)
CPU x64 , AMD Jaguar Cores

“Jaguar” is the evolution of AMD’s “Bobcat” core architecture for low-power APUs. The new core design will add support for SSE4.1, SSE4.2, AES, PCLMUL, AVX, BMI, F16C, and MOVBE instruction sets and increase memory address space from 36 bits to 40 bits. The FPU-unit will be considerably more powerful and the common performance will be boosted by around 15 percent

GPU SIMD, AMD Graphics Core Next

Designed to push not only the boundaries of DirectX® 11 gaming, the GCN Architecture is also AMD's first design specifically engineered for general computing. Equipped with up to 32 compute units (2048 stream processors), each containing a scalar coprocessor, AMD's 28nm GPUs are more than capable of handling workloads-and programming languages-traditionally exclusive to the processor

Performance

Orbis:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Cores x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1843 GFLOPS (2 IPC x 18 Compute Units x 64 x 0.8 GHz) (includes secret sauce)
RAM 4 GB 192 GB/s GDDR5 (256 Bit * 6 GHz /8)
Secret Sauce: scalar ALUs on some of the CUs

Durango:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Cores x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1228 GFLOPS (2 IPC x 12 Shader Cores x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
RAM 8 GB 68.25 GB/s DDR3 (256 Bit * 2.1 GHz /8) + 32 MB 102 GB/s ESRAM (simultaneous access)
Secret Sauce: 4 piece "Data Move Engines", each one significantly helps CPU/GPU performance in different way (not included in numbers above)

With different resources dedicated to to OS.
GFLOPS = Billion floating-point operations per second (math speed)
GB/s = Billion bytes per second (memory transfer speed)

Edit: Whoops, fixed
Edit 2: Updated with extra info

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

Throwing in bets now that Xbox third party is still superior.

I don't know. It's interesting, because the 720's architecture appears a bit more exotic, although I suspect they'll have good tools.

 

[Phire Phox]

Of that, certain are you?

Although, much like you, I have my fears as well.

it depends on the architecture of the hardware. Cell was a bitch to program for causing many games to perform worse than the 360 counterpart. If debs start development on the more complex console first (like Vanquish and NFS: hot pursuit), and port to the easier to develop for console, we may not see that.

 

[Boss Man]

Throwing in bets now that Xbox third party is still superior.

I would imagine that no matter what Sony has done, third parties will still gravitate towards Microsoft. However, since the architectures are so similar and Orbis seems to have a slight edge, they may end up in practical parity anyway. Orbis may even get an extra two frames in a town somewhere or something, depending on what we learn about Orbis. I really don't think there's going to end up being a notable difference either way though.

 

[Insane Metal]

Architekture (same for both)
CPU x64 , AMD Jaguar Cores

GPU SIMD, AMD Graphics Core Next


Performance

Orbis:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Core x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1228 GFLOPS (2 IPC x12 CU x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
RAM 4 GB 192 GB/s GDDR5 (256 Bit * 6 GHz /8)
Secret Sauce: extra scalar ALUs on some of the CUs

Durango:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Core x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1843 GFLOPS (2 IPC x18 CU x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
RAM 8 GB 68.25 GB/s DDR3 (256 Bit * 2.1 GHz /8) + 32 MB 102 GB/s ESRAM (simultaneous access)
Secret Sauce: ? (supposedly something that offloads GPU workload)

With different resources dedicated to to OS.
GFLOPS = Billion floating-point operations per second (math speed)
GB/s = Billion bytes per second (memory transfer speed)

The GPUs are the opposite, lol.

 

[Jadedx]

Architekture (same for both)
CPU x64 , AMD Jaguar Cores

GPU SIMD, AMD Graphics Core Next


Performance

Orbis:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Core x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1228 GFLOPS (2 IPC x12 CU x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
RAM 4 GB 192 GB/s GDDR5 (256 Bit * 6 GHz /8)
Secret Sauce: extra scalar ALUs on some of the CUs

Durango:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Core x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1843 GFLOPS (2 IPC x18 CU x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
RAM 8 GB 68.25 GB/s DDR3 (256 Bit * 2.1 GHz /8) + 32 MB 102 GB/s ESRAM (simultaneous access)
Secret Sauce: ? (supposedly something that offloads GPU workload)

With different resources dedicated to to OS.
GFLOPS = Billion floating-point operations per second (math speed)
GB/s = Billion bytes per second (memory transfer speed)

great, just a couple of things, the Secret Sauce was supposed to offload CPU workload as well, Gpu are switched.

Edit: forgot about the gpu

 

[Plinko]

Not anything that anyone should care about. Then again, I didn't think the differences this generation were worth noting except for like two games (Bayonetta and pre-patch Skyrim).

I agree with you. It was rare. Thats my point--something else is going to have to sell these machines because i think the differences in graphics will be negligible.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Performance

Orbis:
GPU 1843 GFLOPS (2 IPC x18 CU x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
Secret Sauce: extra scalar ALUs on some of the CUs

?

Eurogamer totally got that one wrong. It's extra scalar ALUs on some of the CUs.

Performance gains from that?

Already counted in the 1.84 teraflops figure.

 

[shinnn]

can't wait to play dance central 4 with all those gflops

 

[DSix]

- from the GPU’s perspective the bandwidths of system memory and ESRAM are parallel providing combined peak bandwidth of 170 GB/sec.

That's utter bullshit and we know it. The 360 had the exact same setup with a separate 8MB EDRAM, and its only role is to handle the framebuffer effects. 8MB wasn't enough for 1080p without tiling, so now it's the exact same thing but at 32MB.

It doesn't improve the shit 68 GB/s of the main ram AT ALL, adding the two together is just stupid damage control. It doesn't work like that.

 

[onQ123]

Architekture (same for both)
CPU x64 , AMD Jaguar Cores

GPU SIMD, AMD Graphics Core Next


Performance

Orbis:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Core x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1843 GFLOPS (2 IPC x18 CU x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
RAM 4 GB 192 GB/s GDDR5 (256 Bit * 6 GHz /8)
Secret Sauce: extra scalar ALUs on some of the CUs

Durango:
CPU 102 GFLOPS (8 IPC x 8 Core x1.6 GHz)
GPU 1228 GFLOPS (2 IPC x12 CU x 64 x 0.8 GHz)
RAM 8 GB 68.25 GB/s DDR3 (256 Bit * 2.1 GHz /8) + 32 MB 102 GB/s ESRAM (simultaneous access)
Secret Sauce: ? (speculated to be special fixed function hardware that offloads CPU/GPU workload)

With different resources dedicated to to OS.
GFLOPS = Billion floating-point operations per second (math speed)
GB/s = Billion bytes per second (memory transfer speed)

Edit: Whoops, fixed

I was about to tell you about your little mix up but I see you have fixed it now

 

[Boss Man]

I agree with you. It was rare. Thats my point--something else is going to have to sell these machines because i think the differences in graphics will be negligible.

It will be Sony's first parties vs. Microsoft's features, IMO. If I had to bet on who will sell more consoles, I would side with Microsoft. Especially if Sony seriously lets them release first again like that one thread mentioned. Although I'm mostly talking about the U.S. The concept of what Durango is trying to do could really catch fire here.

Even if Sony ends up with a better gaming machine, Playstation still doesn't really have an identity. They need to work on that. We had a pretty good talk about this stuff in the Eurogamer thread. One of Sony's biggest disadvantages, if what we know about the goals of both systems is true, is that they are going to have to immediately demonstrate the PS4's superiority as a gaming machine if they want it to have a chance of being seen as anything more than featureless 720 by the broader market.

 

[statham]

enough already

fun is over, I thought of one with bish on top for bans

 

[Beerman462]

I haven't heard anything about the GPU integrated in the Jaguar.

Chips based on the Jaguar design will also be more power-efficient with higher levels of CPU and GPU integration, Kanter said.

So could that be the secret sauce. I could see it being used for physics calculations similar to how you can use a separate Nvidia card in your PC to handle PhysX.


No ????

 

[statham]

double post.

 

[Insane Metal]

What people need to be careful is that judging just by the numbers, Orbis seems much more powerful than Durango, but that might not be the case, we have to wait to see 'real world' stuff on them.

 

[aegies]

What people need to be careful is that judging just by the numbers, Orbis seems much more powerful than Durango, but that might not be the case, we have to wait to see 'real world' stuff on them.

See: PS3/360.

 

[Xamdou]

MS will release first and usher in the 3rd party developers on board the next-gen train early. Third-party developers will get used to the Durango hardware at least 6 months earlier by the time the PS4 is released. They will be accustomed to the eight gigs of ram and will have to downscale to the PS4's amount by half.

Will the Xbox 360 games be backwards compatible with durango since it's using a AMD graphics card?

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Data move engine infos from this thread ScepticMatt:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46710115&postcount=1247
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46710204&postcount=1255
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46712530&postcount=1487

Shader cores?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46710858&postcount=1327

There's this about the eSRAM too:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46711414&postcount=1387

Don't ask me to explain this stuff, lol.

 

[Plinko]

See: PS3/360.

Exactly my point.

 

[i-Lo]

MS will release first and usher in the 3rd party developers on board the next-gen train early. Third-party developers will get used to the Durango hardware at least 6 months earlier by the time the PS4 is released. They will be accustomed to the eight gigs of ram and will have to downscale to the PS4's amount by half.

Rather a simplistic conclusion based off of rumoured/incomplete information and fiction (pertaining to release date).

 

[clav]

Will the Xbox 360 games be backwards compatible with durango since it's using a AMD graphics card?

Forget the card. What about the CPU?

PPC instruction set needs to translate to x64.

As long as it has been, remember the Xbox 360 was released at a time when Apple was still using IBM CPUs in their Macs.

 

[Raistlin]

You're alluding to it being GDDR5, correct?

yes

 

[Jadedx]

That's utter bullshit and we know it. The 360 had the exact same setup with a separate 8MB EDRAM, and its only role is to handle the framebuffer effects. 8MB wasn't enough for 1080p without tiling, so now it's the exact same thing but at 32MB.

It doesn't improve the shit 68 GB/s of the main ram AT ALL, adding the two together is just stupid damage control. It doesn't work like that.

What you're not seeing is that while the Ps4 has 192 GB/s bandwidth Most of that is going to be taken by the Framebuffer post processing. That 68 GB/s is only going to be used for the game/graphics since esram and the DMEs are doing all the heavy lifting. The Ps4 will probably still have a bandwidth edge, but it will not be that big.

Edit: Also the Esram is supposed to be easier to work with thant the Edram and can do more according to one of Aegies' posts.

 

[Boss Man]

What people need to be careful is that judging just by the numbers, Orbis seems much more powerful than Durango, but that might not be the case, we have to wait to see 'real world' stuff on them.

You're right, but it's worth noting that this is not PS3/360 as another poster mentioned. These two systems are a lot more similar, so it feels a lot safer to take the numbers mostly at face value. We certainly don't know anything for sure yet though.

Plus, at the end of the day, it's the developers that matter. I totally don't mean that in a corny Disney movie lesson kind of way either. If it wasn't the case, we'd all be playing next-gen games on PC three years ago.

 

[Mario007]

You're right, but it's worth noting that this is not PS3/360 as another poster mentioned. These two systems are a lot more similar, so it feels a lot safer to take the numbers mostly at face value. We certainly don't know anything for sure yet though.

B...but the secret sauce man! The secret sauce!

 

[Ding-Ding]

Orbis: F-22 (super high performance but not well rounded)
Durango: F-35 (lower performance but much more user friendly and multirole)
Wii U: Sopwith Camel

PC: Fictional aircraft in the movie Stealth

1st post on GAF and I am so sorry it has to start with a falling out...

Don't you ever, EVER...disrespect the Sopwith Camel in such a disgraceful way. That thing is a legend made by men, for real men.

None of this present day, namby pamby types who wear g-suits to protect thier nuts from entering their head. Sopwith Camel pilots put thier balls in direct firing line of Spandau machine guns.

Compare it to a Wii U again. Serious words will be had.

 

[Can Crusher]

See: PS3/360.

That would be underwhelming on MS's part considering they are releasing at the same time. Honestly I hope for even more parity. PS3 is capable of more than 360, let's not forget the importance of tools and the importance of developing for the lowest common denominator.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Forget the card. What about the CPU?

PPC instruction set needs to translate to x64.

As long as it has been, remember the Xbox 360 was released at a time when Apple was still using IBM CPUs in their Macs.

It would need a recompile at least. If you use inline assembly anywhere, it's probably a good luck item.

It goes without saying disc based compatibility is probably a no go. XBLA and digital release games are probably fine.

 

[Xamdou]

So how fast is the 6x Blu-Ray disc read? Isn't that slow? Looks like mandatory installs are a must for next gen games...

 

[mugurumakensei]

So how fast is the 6x Blu-Ray disc read? Isn't that slow? Looks like mandatory installs are a must for next gen games...

216 Mbps. It's not bad at all.

 

[aegies]

That would be underwhelming on MS's part considering they are releasing at the same time. Honestly I hope for even more parity. PS3 is capable of more than 360, let's not forget the importance of tools and the importance of developing for the lowest common denominator.

They were supposed to release at the same time, and were developed concurrently. The PS3 got delayed due to blu-ray, if I remember correctly. I still think there's a good chance Durango releases first this fall.

 

[charsace]

enough already

Wreck this motherfucker.

 

[shinobi602]

They were supposed to release at the same time, and were developed concurrently. The PS3 got delayed due to blu-ray, if I remember correctly. I still think there's a good chance Durango releases first this fall.

Just tell me if Watch Dogs or SW1313 will be there at launch and I'm there day 1.

 

[ScepticMatt]

So how fast is the 6x Blu-Ray disc read?

27 MB/s, compared to around 75 MB/s for a 5400 rpm or 100MB/s for a 7200 rpm hard disk drive.
i.e. not too shabby (not accounting for latencies, cache etc.)

 

[oversitting]

So how fast is the 6x Blu-Ray disc read? Isn't that slow? Looks like mandatory installs are a must for next gen games...

It will be like 4 times faster than the 360's drive. With a HDD cache, its unlikely you will have mandatory installs.