EDGE: The next Xbox: Always online, no second-hand games, 50GB Blu-ray and new kinect

qko said:
How would they lose half their sales, when the sales most sale trackers count are new and uneffected by used sales? Most pubs have been underselling this generation and the shutdowns have already been happening.
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What about consumers that only have funds to buy new because they traded in?
 
Mr Swine said:
Do you mean games bought on the Internet or not?
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Well, I actually meant physical discs but it could apply to both.

For instance, I still have a few NES games - I plug them in and they play. If a call had to be made to a server to make sure I was the owner, would they still work today? Would the servers still be running, and if not would the games be useless. I'm imagining a shelf full of discs that can't be used after a certain amount of time.

I don't know either way what will/would happen, but until I know for sure that's my biggest concern in all of this. A worst case scenario obviously, but it worries me a bit.


PaulLFC said:
One thing that for some reason never occurred to me until now - if "no more used games" is brought in, what happens to older games after a couple of years?

Are publishers going to carry on reprinting their back catalogues indefinitely? I very much doubt it. There's always digital, but that would mean that every game would have to be available digitally as well as at retail. There's also the question or whether publishers will do what they have this gen with digital downloads of console games and massively inflate the asking prices compared to retail prices.
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This concerns me as well.
 
Fandangox said:
Imagine getting a sweet new game for the xbox720. You and your friends have been waiting for it for some time you buy it, go home, try it out, get the authentication done and you play it a bit "shit this game is good"

You call your bro Jimmy cause he was also expecting the game, but doesn't have it, you go visit him and take the game with you. You fire up on his Xbox720 aaand
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aaand you log into your account and play it.
 
megashock5 said:
Well, I actually meant physical discs but it could apply to both.

For instance, I still have a few NES games - I plug them in and they play. If a call had to be made to a server to make sure I was the owner, would they still work today? Would the servers still be running, and if not would the games be useless. I'm imagining a shelf full of discs that can't be used after a certain amount of time.

I don't know either way what will/would happen, but until I know for sure that's my biggest concern in all of this. A worst case scenario obviously, but it worries me a bit.
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This is my biggest objection to this type of thing as well. I like having a collection and being able to go back and replay old favorites or try out old games that I've never played before. I don't like the idea that a game I buy might become completely unusable well before the actual disc would have worn out because the publisher or whoever took down the authentication server.
 
PaulLFC said:
One thing that for some reason never occurred to me until now - if "no more used games" is brought in, what happens to older games after a couple of years?

Are publishers going to carry on reprinting their back catalogues indefinitely? I very much doubt it. There's always digital, but that would mean that every game would have to be available digitally as well as at retail. There's also the question or whether publishers will do what they have this gen with digital downloads of console games and massively inflate the asking prices compared to retail prices.
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Now imagine that someone in the future wants to play a really good 5 or 10 year old game he owns in his collection instead of the last so-called AAA release ... he might be able to play it, he might not. Regardless of the fact he bought the hardware and the game, regardles of the disc being scratch free and the machine still in working order (or the ability to buy a machine second hand).

This might be the future for distribution of games, but as long as there are alternatives and old games to play, I will pass.
 
PaulLFC said:
One thing that for some reason never occurred to me until now - if "no more used games" is brought in, what happens to older games after a couple of years?

Are publishers going to carry on reprinting their back catalogues indefinitely? I very much doubt it. There's always digital, but that would mean that every game would have to be available digitally as well as at retail. There's also the question or whether publishers will do what they have this gen with digital downloads of console games and massively inflate the asking prices compared to retail prices.
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I made this point in one of the other threads (in in admittedly really long post). Of course no one even bothered to try to address it.

"Taking away used copies limits the availability and player base of all games to their limited print run, and declares that anyone who wants to get one after that has been exhausted should not be allowed to. "Restrictive" is an understatement; it essentially makes every single title a Limited Edition, one that cannot be played or enjoyed by anybody else. If the game gets a 100,000 print run, that's the maximum number of people allowed to enjoy it. It not only deprives consumers of the ability to get older titles they might be late to the party to, it fundamentally changes the games marketplace into a limited, members-only club, where if you don't show up early enough you're barred from entering. It puts a hard limit on the fan base of games and eliminates the ability of word of mouth to build a long tail and drive future purchases.

The industry's AAA obsession with front-loaded sales and having a massive hit in the first week or the game is a failure is already unsustainable, counter-protective, and ultimately self-destructive--and this would codify that delusional business practice into official, stated, enforceable policy. It would be the pinnacle of irrational, short-term profiteering with absolutely no regard for long-term consequences, sustainable business models or the ultimate longevity and legacy of the industry. It caters to the purchasers who simply have to have a game in its first print run, and everyone else can suck it. You're not invited. If the game runs out, it runs out. And retail shelf space is valuable and is only going to get smaller, which means the number of games they're able to cram onto shelves is only going to shrink.

This move destroys collector's markets. It destroys the ability of archivists and hobbyists to legally preserve games for future generations. It destroys the ability for consumers to enter a generation late and still enjoy the same games that early adopters did. It destroys the ability of hidden gems and under-rated titles without huge marketing pushes to be discovered later and see a resurgence of interest, because retailers have already sent them all back. Think about the wonderfully varied and diverse collection of PS2/GC/Xbox games that were available, and how so many lesser-known titles found a following only when used copies were available, and how many people got to pick up and experience games like Katamari long after the initial print run had run out. All of that, gone."
 
faceless007 said:
I made this point in one of the other threads (in in admittedly really long post). Of course no one even bothered to try to address it.

"Taking away used copies limits the availability and player base of all games to their limited print run, and declares that anyone who wants to get one after that has been exhausted should not be allowed to. "Restrictive" is an understatement; it essentially makes every single title a Limited Edition, one that cannot be played or enjoyed by anybody else. If the game gets a 100,000 print run, that's the maximum number of people allowed to enjoy it. It not only deprives consumers of the ability to get older titles they might be late to the party to, it fundamentally changes the games marketplace into a limited, members-only club, where if you don't show up early enough you're barred from entering. It puts a hard limit on the fan base of games and eliminates the ability of word of mouth to build a long tail and drive future purchases.

The industry's AAA obsession with front-loaded sales and having a massive hit in the first week or the game is a failure is already unsustainable, counter-protective, and ultimately self-destructive--and this would codify that delusional business practice into official, stated, enforceable policy. It would be the pinnacle of irrational, short-term profiteering with absolutely no regard for long-term consequences, sustainable business models or the ultimate longevity and legacy of the industry. It caters to the purchasers who simply have to have a game in its first print run, and everyone else can suck it. You're not invited. If the game runs out, it runs out. And retail shelf space is valuable and is only going to get smaller, which means the number of games they're able to cram onto shelves is only going to shrink.

This move destroys collector's markets. It destroys the ability of archivists and hobbyists to legally preserve games for future generations. It destroys the ability for consumers to enter a generation late and still enjoy the same games that early adopters did. It destroys the ability of hidden gems and under-rated titles without huge marketing pushes to be discovered later and see a resurgence of interest, because retailers have already sent them all back. Think about the wonderfully varied and diverse collection of PS2/GC/Xbox games that were available, and how so many lesser-known titles found a following only when used copies were available, and how many people got to pick up and experience games like Katamari long after the initial print run had run out. All of that, gone."
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While I agree with a lot of your points, I have no doubt whatsoever that all Durango/Orbis games will be available for download on the day of release. Don't worry about games becoming unavailable, at least for everybody with an internet connection.
 
Activation codes? No more used games?

Sounds like early reports are true, the home video games console market is going to die out after next gen...
 
Thing about the Red Blade teaser is, though it looks like it could be very easily fan made, it's pretty much exactly in line with what one would expect Microsoft to do for a next generation console.

The only thing that gives it away or gives it less credibility is "Winter 2013." No way they're not launching in Fall.
 
Withnail said:
While I agree with a lot of your points, I have no doubt whatsoever that all Durango/Orbis games will be available for download on the day of release. Don't worry about games becoming unavailable, at least for everybody with an internet connection.
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You have more faith in them than I do. For how long will they bother to keep up games on the store after the release date? We've already seen this gen that licensing arrangements can result in games being pulled from DD stores (DKC from Wii, certain Marvel DLC, many games from Steam). And of course, games will still be locked to MSRP.
 
PaulLFC said:
One thing that for some reason never occurred to me until now - if "no more used games" is brought in, what happens to older games after a couple of years?
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Probably just disappear into the ether unless there's some way to crack them.

There are a bunch of XBLA games that have been delisted and are no longer available to aquire through any conventional means. If the activation part of the rumor is true this may happen to all games someday, disc or download, unless there's some way to crack them.
 
GoofsterStud said:
This always online better not be true.

So I can't play a single games if:
1.) Local Internet Outage
2.) Microsoft location has an internet outage
3.) Microsoft Servers get hacked
4.) Microsoft Servers go down
5.) During Microsoft Server or Maintenance updates (MMO gamers are familiar with this)

If that's the case, I'll just stick to the PC. Hopefully the PS4 doesn't follow suit, I'd hate to skip a console generation.
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Always online does not necessarily mean always on DRM. If they keep the same DRM, none of those would apply if you used your main console.
 
PaulLFC said:
One thing that for some reason never occurred to me until now - if "no more used games" is brought in, what happens to older games after a couple of years?

Are publishers going to carry on reprinting their back catalogues indefinitely? I very much doubt it. There's always digital, but that would mean that every game would have to be available digitally as well as at retail. There's also the question or whether publishers will do what they have this gen with digital downloads of console games and massively inflate the asking prices compared to retail prices.
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I thnk it's very likely every retail game will see a digital release on these new consoles. Even the current consoles eventually get digital release for most games.
 
GoofsterStud said:
This always online better not be true.

So I can't play a single games if:
1.) Local Internet Outage
2.) Microsoft location has an internet outage
3.) Microsoft Servers get hacked
4.) Microsoft Servers go down
5.) During Microsoft Server or Maintenance updates (MMO gamers are familiar with this)

If that's the case, I'll just stick to the PC. Hopefully the PS4 doesn't follow suit, I'd hate to skip a console generation.
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Anyone who tried to play Diablo 3 day one knows how potentially fucking awful this could be.

There is no way in hell those servers are staying up the day a new COD or GTA is released and a fuckzillion people are trying to play all at once.
 
Anth0ny said:
Anyone who tried to play Diablo 3 day one knows how potentially fucking awful this could be.

There is no way in hell those servers are staying up the day a new COD or GTA is released and a fuckzillion people are trying to play all at once.
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Yep I'm done with consoles completely if this happens. I accept the price premium for console gaming because I like my physical media and convenience of "insert disc and play" but I won't be accepting that if it comes with all the drawbacks of Steam as well. I typically own around 60 physical games at any one time and that'll be 60 games that Microsoft won't be getting a slice of if they force me to abandon console gaming.
 
I still think this is mostly overblown conjecture, sure, publishers would LOVE it if they could have that much control over everything you buy but as long as retail still exists (and despite it's slow collapse , it'll be around for a while yet) a wholly 100% online only system that blocks second hand sales just flat out won't work.


I speculated on this subject a year ago- the limits of what will actually happen I think are that the console will require an internet connection. It won't to be on all the time but I can easily see games requiring a sign in to unlock their full slate of content. Imagine buying the new madden and the whole game is on the disc, toss it in your new xbox and you can go ahead and load the game up. Now let's say you don't have internet hooked up to the system. Without a connection the game will load up but it would lock out 50% of the content - no multiplayer obviously, maybe only 1 season can be done at a time, no player creation and perhaps there's pre-order / day 1 purchase bonuses that you can't do anything with. Sign into xbox live though, and boom the game asks for a code included with the disc and signs off giving the player full access to the game. Should they then sell that copy and a new owner picks it up used- the game would remain in that locked down state unless you bought a code digitally , a price that would vary based on the age of the game. Maybe in the first month that pass costs 20$ but month 2-6 it goes down to 10$ and from month 6-11 it's only 5$ then when the next madden is out the pass is free. Publishers then work with retailers on this- if the retailer orders 100 copies of madden for it's store, they get 30 extra pass codes to sell with used copies and can order more for bit of money. That way, if you buy a used copy it just comes with a new code(so you don't buy one) but the publisher still gets a small cut instead of nothing.

As well, MS could add capability to add "guest consoles" to a game license , so maybe you bring your copy of madden to a friends house and he doesn't own it. Toss your disc in, sign into your live account and activate a guest use. Publisher then decide how many guests can be active at a time and the player can remotely deactivate them from his home device. Likewise, if your main device fails for some reason you can sign in from a computer and keep all activated games set to account only , then reactivate them on a new console with a personalized passkey.


I'm not saying this future will be one of convenience, far from it, but I don't see the end of the world scenario many are tossing around.
 
Pachinko said:
I still think this is mostly overblown conjecture, sure, publishers would LOVE it if they could have that much control over everything you buy but as long as retail still exists (and despite it's slow collapse , it'll be around for a while yet) a wholly 100% online only system that blocks second hand sales just flat out won't work.


I speculated on this subject a year ago- the limits of what will actually happen I think are that the console will require an internet connection. It won't to be on all the time but I can easily see games requiring a sign in to unlock their full slate of content. Imagine buying the new madden and the whole game is on the disc, toss it in your new xbox and you can go ahead and load the game up. Now let's say you don't have internet hooked up to the system. Without a connection the game will load up but it would lock out 50% of the content - no multiplayer obviously, maybe only 1 season can be done at a time, no player creation and perhaps there's pre-order / day 1 purchase bonuses that you can't do anything with. Sign into xbox live though, and boom the game asks for a code included with the disc and signs off giving the player full access to the game. Should they then sell that copy and a new owner picks it up used- the game would remain in that locked down state unless you bought a code digitally , a price that would vary based on the age of the game. Maybe in the first month that pass costs 20$ but month 2-6 it goes down to 10$ and from month 6-11 it's only 5$ then when the next madden is out the pass is free. Publishers then work with retailers on this- if the retailer orders 100 copies of madden for it's store, they get 30 extra pass codes to sell with used copies and can order more for bit of money. That way, if you buy a used copy it just comes with a new code(so you don't buy one) but the publisher still gets a small cut instead of nothing.

As well, MS could add capability to add "guest consoles" to a game license , so maybe you bring your copy of madden to a friends house and he doesn't own it. Toss your disc in, sign into your live account and activate a guest use. Publisher then decide how many guests can be active at a time and the player can remotely deactivate them from his home device. Likewise, if your main device fails for some reason you can sign in from a computer and keep all activated games set to account only , then reactivate them on a new console with a personalized passkey.


I'm not saying this future will be one of convenience, far from it, but I don't see the end of the world scenario many are tossing around.
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Doesn't sound like there's any gray area like that. Seems to be pretty black and white.
 
ironcreed said:
Were I trying to hammer such a new scheme through, I would sell new physical copies of games for $49.99 and would make digital download more appealing by selling the same new games at $39.99. Only by lowering prices can they make people swallow not being able to buy used, and they would also be making a more appealing transition to buying digital at the same time by offering digital downloads at a lower price than physical copies. Two birds with one stone, as it were. Giving me cheaper games is the only way I will ever be on board with this. But I don't see it happening.
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Even then you're going to have to bring the price down lower than that. $50 and even $40 is a lot of money to spend on a game you may never play again. You're going to have to lower the prices to something like $20 or $30 to get people to bite imo.
 
george_us said:
Even then you're going to have to bring the price down lower than that. $50 and even $40 is a lot of money to spend on a game you may never play again. You're going to have to lower the prices to something like $20 or $30 to get people to bite imo.
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If Steam is any indication, I have a feeling that's what we're going to see. A good chunk of us play on consoles as opposed to PC due to the freedom allotted with physical/transferrable copies. This doesn't *completely* explain why prices are low on Steam, but I suspect that it's a component. I mean, not to mention Steam games will be compatible with any future PC I purchase, which can't be said for consoles. The market is going to correct itself at some point--restrictive features have the potential to kill demand. And if it does kill demand, prices will drop.
 
bennyc12 said:
If Steam is any indication, I have a feeling that's what we're going to see.
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There is ZERO chance of that happening. Used games or not, most people will still buy their games through stores at retail, which means that retailers will still be in a position to press publishers into keeping digital prices artificially high. Prices on Steam drop because retailers neglected the PC market and it is largely lost to them.
 
PSYGN said:
I can see some games going digital, but there will be many where the file size is just too large for many consumers to swallow, whether it be technical reasons (limited bandwidth, limited HDD space) or just impatience... I don't want to wait a day to game after I purchase it. Especially with the fact that next-gen is coming along and will allow for assets of higher quality. But will they gimp this just so they can be more consumable digitally? I want to see games at their full polish, pure hd assets and all.

I could imagine a wall for digital downloads at GameStop for games like this. If the PS4 had an easily detachable HDD caddy type peripheral built in, one could feasibly take this to that wall, lock it into a slot, pick a game and swipe the card. Browse around the store or go out and return. Probably best if that was handled by staff behind the counter, though.
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Nintendo did this in the '80s and '90s in Japan. In both cases the DDL titles were around half-off standard retail (though of course, reusing storage in the age of $30 in ROM made this a lot easier).
 
faceless007 said:
You have more faith in them than I do. For how long will they bother to keep up games on the store after the release date? We've already seen this gen that licensing arrangements can result in games being pulled from DD stores (DKC from Wii, certain Marvel DLC, many games from Steam). And of course, games will still be locked to MSRP.
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The current way on how retail is handled is the definition of "not available" for niche games. Digital releases have helped niched games to be available for everyone to an extent nobody has seen in the past.

PC market is even more pushing in that direction, where thousands of games are now avaialbe from until deep in the past without any effort, and still the second hand and retail market have been eradicated for good there.

As for you two points :
- licence expiring. This is a true hole in the system.

- prices ? For PC games, prices have never been cheaper so fast and so deep. As for consoles, there still problems related to lack of competiton and good faith towards retail shops wich have yet to be removed.
 
alexandros said:
There is ZERO chance of that happening. Used games or not, most people will still buy their games through stores at retail, which means that retailers will still be in a position to press publishers into keeping digital prices artificially high. Prices on Steam drop because retailers neglected the PC market and it is largely lost to them.
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Money is made more and more on digital. probably more than 50% quite soon. Then, there will be no turning back, look at the closing of shops everywhere in the world.
 
toddhunter said:
I'm confused? What do you mean?
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I think he's referring to how the Xbox 360 made it so you had a single serial number as the "primary console." If you logged into your Live account anywhere and downloaded the games, they'd always work, but you'd need to actively be connected to the internet. While using the "primary console," you didn't need to be online, but that was only the case for that one specific piece of hardware.
 
wazoo said:
Money is made more and more on digital. probably more than 50% quite soon. Then, there will be no turning back, look at the closing of shops everywhere in the world.
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Even then you have no guarantee that prices will drop. You have no competing stores on consoles, ergo no real incentive to drop prices. If the customer thinks a price is $10 higher than what he'd like, what are his choices? He could refuse to buy it, so he bought a console but now has no games to play, or say "screw it" and buy at the higher price.

If you want a real world example, I ask you this: How often do you see DLC on console getting 75% discounts? It's an all-digital market, so why don't prices drop?
 
I can literally not use a Durango in my house if the always-online feature is true; due to both where I live and how our online's set up, it disconnects at least a couple times per day. Bad? Sure, but I can manage when it's just browsing the internet and I can time online multiplayer matches around it.

but holy shit, it was bad enough with a couple of Ubisoft's PC games, but an entire system with always online DRM? No used games is also crap, but even if the PS4 has it I'd be more willing to put up with that if Sony doesn't have a similarly idiotic online restriction.
 
I had a good laugh, literally every rumour for this thing is bad:

The next-generation Xbox—the one that will follow the still-popular Xbox 360—will run multiple games at once, require game installations, and will only work when a much-improved version of the popular but divisive Kinect sensor array is plugged in...
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Hmm,

Now that the next Xbox has a Blu-ray drive in the system doesn't that mean it will be mandated to use HDCP? The reason why I asked is I remember allot of people complaining with the PS3 having it enable and not being able to record game play by using HDMI.
 
Mesoian said:
From the site that shall not be named...but....

http://kotaku.com/5982986/we-know-all-about-the-next-xbox-from-someone-who-says-theyve-got-one

And
Here
We
Go...

again.
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As we reported a year ago, the new version of the Kinect motion-control sensor array will be included with every Durango sold. The unit seems far superior to the one currently found for the Xbox 360 (or the PC, for that matter).

Perhaps most importantly, this isn't an optional accessory. It's mandatory. Not only does a Kinect ship with every console, but it must be plugged in and calibrated for the console to even function.
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I currently have no plans to get a new Xbox, but that bit of "rumor" won't push my decision in the right direction so to speak. Here we go indeed.
 
What's more, this installation can take place automatically, while you're playing the game. Durango titles can be designed in "sections," so that you can pop your disc in, start playing and, in the background, the rest of the game will install.
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If that is true that is pretty amazing.
 
I bet you the game data isn't even on the disk. It's the key for downloading all games to the system. That's why everyone is saying it requires an online connection.

At least, that's what I got from reading the article.
 
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