Support NeoGAF

[Dahbomb]

This generation feels more "coordinated" than any gen before it... it feels like the major publishers got together in secret meetings and then with MS/Sony to convince them on a common path... similar hardware and shared goal to eliminate used games.

They didn't bother meeting with nintendo though... the publishers decided their fate long ago.

Publishers = The Patriots?

Gaming has changed...

 

[Nachtmaer]

Intresting answers from the CVG heads about the block on pre-owned games:

That's what I thought as well. More of this online pass bullshit.

If I were to wear a tinfoil hat, I'd say this is just some clever marketing stunt. Spread rumours about about locking out users from X and then supposedly backing off to please the people.

On a serious note, this blocking of pre-owned games stuff has been floating around for many years and people thought it would happen this gen. Sure, this can still change but we all know the consequences if it turns out to be true.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Publishers = The Patriots?

Gaming has changed...

Kaz Hirai: we have the best interests of 3rd party publishers in mind.

Marc Whitten: we have the best interests of 3rd party publishers in mind.

Satoru Iwata: La Li Lu Le Lo

 

[Xanadu]

What's glorious about it, troll?

wat u gonna do PUSS?

 

[Doffen]

What's glorious about it, troll?

He's been sarcastic. You know: "What a beautiful day!" *raining*
Or: "Glorious profit" *billion dollar loss*

 

[Manmademan]

yes I own a PS3 and 360 and am barely a PC gamer at all. Concsoles are dominated by AAA games and there is barely anything outside of that sphere that is financially viable, unlike PC which is a much more balanced mix of indie, F2P, AAA and mid-tier budget games.

Steam has succeeded where Xbox LIVE and PSN have failed in cultivating a healthy ecosystem of games development.

Do you even own a console, bro?

Flat out false. There are about 800 RETAIL PS3 releases. Are you saying all of those are AAA? or were the vast majority of those simply "not financially viable?" If they aren't financially viable, why are companies releasing over 100 of them a year?

we can also look at PSN- there are nearly as many (500? 600?) smaller download only games there as well. Is Journey AAA? Flower? Double Dragon Neon? Bionic Commando: Rearmed? Joe Danger? Karateka? Limbo? Mega Man 9? Unfinished Swan? Magic: The Gathering? NBA:Jam- On Fire? Penny Arcade: Adventures? Walking Dead? Rock Band Blitz? Retro City Rampage? Scott Pilgrim vs. The World? Soldner X-2? Dead Nation? Xmen: Arcade? Critter Crunch? Castlevania: Harmony of Despair? After Burner: Climax?

I can easily name more QUALITY download only games on psn than you can name AAA software on any platform, period. You're full of shit.

 

[Delusibeta]

Edge has good information. I really wonder how consumers and retailers will react to this.

So, Microsoft really is setting fire to all of the revenue earned with the previous two Xboxes? Ladies and gentlemen, please hold your colours and enjoy the show.

 

[Jedi2016]

I know people are going to say "but PC games do it too" but yeah why do they get away with it then?

Because we let them. The convenience of things like Steam, and being able to buy cheap games, download and play them, without ever getting up out of our chair. The typically low cost of digital games means most people simply don't care that it's non-transferable.

Also, with digital games, there's nothing physical taking up space in the living room. With consoles and physical media, you're more likely to go through the pile every couple of years to clear out space, and sell off the games that you don't play anymore. On Steam, we literally forget that we have 85 games that we never play anymore. Just sitting there, collecting virtual dust on a Steam server somewhere. I typically only view my "Installed" list, and I've actually been surprised once or twice to look at my "All Games" list and find things that I don't even remember buying.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Flat out false. There are about 800 RETAIL PS3 releases. Are you saying all of those are AAA? or were the vast majority of those simply "not financially viable?" If they aren't financially viable, why are companies releasing over 100 of them a year?

we can also look at PSN- there are nearly as many (500? 600?) smaller download only games there as well. Is Journey AAA? Flower? Double Dragon Neon? Bionic Commando: Rearmed? Joe Danger? Karateka? Limbo? Mega Man 9? Unfinished Swan? Magic: The Gathering? NBA:Jam- On Fire? Penny Arcade: Adventures? Walking Dead? Rock Band Blitz? Retro City Rampage? Scott Pilgrim vs. The World? Soldner X-2? Dead Nation? Xmen: Arcade? Critter Crunch? Castlevania: Harmony of Despair? After Burner: Climax?

I can easily name more QUALITY download only games on psn than you can name AAA software on any platform, period. You're full of shit.

 

[Sky Chief]

I have to ask at this point, how is this legal? It completely invalidates the First Sales Doctrine. I know people are going to say "but PC games do it too" but yeah why do they get away with it then?

And no, the EULAs/you only own a licence arguments are not a satisfactory answer.

I am not a lawyer but I have been reading up on this lately and here is the way I understand it as regards US law. One of the reasons that the First Sales Doctrine applies to physical media is because it inherently degrades over time (a used console game disk can become scratched for example). This is not the case with Digital Distribution. A used purely digital copy of a game is in identical condition to a new copy and therefore it is exempt from the First Sales Doctrine.

Furthermore, purely digital media files like mp3s, movies, computer programs, etc... can be copied and/or backed up perfectly an unlimited number of times very easily. This is one of the main arguments I have seen as to why downloaded media is exempt from the First Sales Doctrine, it would be possible for people to buy the game, song, or whatever and then distribute it infinitely by just making copies and reselling as there really is no original copy. This infringes on the copyright holders reproduction rights.

Finally:

The Copyright Software Rental Amendments Act of 1990 amended §109(b) further to prohibit rentals of computer software for direct or indirect commercial advantage. The exception does not apply to lending of a copy by a nonprofit library for nonprofit purposes, provided the library affixes an appropriate warning. The amendment also specifically excluded:

A computer program which is embodied in a machine or product and which cannot be copied during the ordinary operation or use of the machine or product; or

A computer program embodied in or used in conjunction with a limited purpose computer that is designed for playing video games and may be designed for other purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

So basically, it seems to me that current US law mandates that consumers must be allowed to sell used physical video game console media. A complete ban on selling used games on physical media would be either outright illegal or fall into a gray area that the courts will have to deliberate on. But again, I am certainly not a lawyer.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

This generation feels more "coordinated" than any gen before it... it feels like the major publishers got together in secret meetings and then with MS/Sony to convince them on a common path... similar hardware and shared goal to eliminate used games.

They didn't bother meeting with nintendo though... the publishers decided their fate long ago.

I think the word you're looking for there is "cartel"

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Flat out false. There are about 800 RETAIL PS3 releases. Are you saying all of those are AAA? or were the vast majority of those simply "not financially viable?" If they aren't financially viable, why are companies releasing over 100 of them a year?

we can also look at PSN- there are nearly as many (500? 600?) smaller download only games there as well. Is Journey AAA? Flower? Double Dragon Neon? Bionic Commando: Rearmed? Joe Danger? Karateka? Limbo? Mega Man 9? Unfinished Swan? Magic: The Gathering? NBA:Jam- On Fire? Penny Arcade: Adventures? Walking Dead? Rock Band Blitz? Retro City Rampage? Scott Pilgrim vs. The World? Soldner X-2? Dead Nation? Xmen: Arcade? Critter Crunch? Castlevania: Harmony of Despair? After Burner: Climax?

I can easily name more QUALITY download only games on psn than you can name AAA software on any platform, period. You're full of shit.

The sales figures on PSN and XBLA are nothing compared to Steam, with many games just not selling at all; there is a reason that most indie games are all on PC and that many are just plain skipping XBLA or PSN. An example:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-04-darwinia-dev-introversion-done-with-xbla

Or how about Fez not getting a needed patch due to XBLA costs that aren't an issue on Steam?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-19-save-corrupting-fez-patch-back-online

This generation now is very different from it's beginnings in 2005/2006 and what retail releases there are now which aren't AAA just plain don't succeed with few exceptions (I can think of Atlus, Deadly Premonition and nothing else). NPD figures show a consistent decline in software yoy, so many studios have closed, IP forgotten, publishers bought out and even then only a handful of AAA IP are showing any growth anymore. The numbers are there.

 

[Manmademan]

Because we let them. The convenience of things like Steam, and being able to buy cheap games, download and play them, without ever getting up out of our chair. The typically low cost of digital games means most people simply don't care that it's non-transferable.

Also, with digital games, there's nothing physical taking up space in the living room. With consoles and physical media, you're more likely to go through the pile every couple of years to clear out space, and sell off the games that you don't play anymore. On Steam, we literally forget that we have 85 games that we never play anymore. Just sitting there, collecting virtual dust on a Steam server somewhere. I typically only view my "Installed" list, and I've actually been surprised once or twice to look at my "All Games" list and find things that I don't even remember buying.

Keep in mind that the "piracy" issue is there for PC games as well. I don't do it myself (I'm not really a PC gaming fan) but I've seen posts here and elsewhere that say "hell with it, I'll just pirate the game" when a particularly onerous DRM implementation rears its head.

This isn't anywhere near as prevalent on consoles.

 

[Delusibeta]

So basically, it seems to me that current US law mandates that consumers must be allowed to sell used physical video game console media. A complete ban on selling used games on physical media would be either outright illegal or fall into a gray area that the courts will have to deliberate on. But again, I am certainly not a lawyer.

Certainly, if this rumour turns out to be true, Microsoft is going to get sued on day one.

 

[brochiller]

If the price is as low as $5 I think that would be ok.

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that is what happens, though.

EA charges $10 just do unlock online functionality in their sports games if you buy it pre-owned. No way it will be as low as $5 for an entire game.

 

[Manmademan]

The sales figures on PSN and XBLA are nothing compared to Steam, with many games just not selling at all; there is a reason that most indie games are all on PC and that many are just plain skipping XBLA or PSN.

This generation now is very different from it's beginnings in 2005/2006 and what retail releases there are which aren't AAA just plain don't succeed with few exceptions (I can think of Atlus, Deadly Premonition and nothing else). NPD figures show a consistent decline in software yoy, so many studios have closed, IP forgotten, publishers bought out and even then only a handful of AAA IP are showing any growth anymore. The numbers are there.

we weren't talking "sales figures." we were talking availability of games. The games are there, and continue to BE there. AAA, "A", "B", "C" in the hundreds. every year.

Again, if "nobody is selling anything" then why do companies continue to release PSN only and Xbox live only games? exactly. Why are there 100+ RETAIL releases a year? There are plenty of games that sell just fine, disc and download with little fanfare. sports games, licensed games, games for kids- none of these get much press, but there they are, year after year. Your argument does not hold water, and it's demonstrably false.

NPD shows a decline because we're at the end of the generation. This always happens. Current owners are burned out on software that looks exactly like what they have and offers nothing new, and there is a limited pool of people to sell new consoles to- between the wii, ps3, and 360 there have been 240 million consoles sold worldwide, more than any other generation by about 75 million consoles. It's a completely different issue.

Or how about Fez not getting a needed patch due to XBLA costs that aren't an issue on Steam?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ch-back-online

you're scrambling. what does the cost to patch an XBLA game, have to do with overall availability of "A" and "B" games on that platform? The fact that Fez is there period actually harms your argument.

 

[ironcreed]

Intresting answers from the CVG heads about the block on pre-owned games:

"This is purely speculation, of course, but I think both will just adopt the online pass format already seen to unlock the online content in EA games, except this time it'll expand to the whole game. When you buy a game brand new you get a one-time code that you can enter to unlock access to the game. If you don't have the code, then you have to pay £5 for the unlock key instead. That way pre-owned games will still exist, but Sony, Microsoft and the game publishers will still get a cut from each successive owner. BOOOM - commerce."

This sounds like a more plausible outcome. It is just a natural progression of the system that is already in place. Better than just outright blocking used games, but it is still marching in the direction of that all the same and it absolutely sucks for us for single player fans. This is sadly just another step towards the inevitable.

 

[Deuterium]

So if I'm reading this right I should just buy a steambox

Yes, you should be so pissed off at this situation that you should immediately cash in your chips, and switch to an unknown platform that has, at it's fundamental basis, the same issue (no used games) and is led by the very Company that started this entire practice.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Soup Bar]

I have to ask at this point, how is this legal? It completely invalidates the First Sales Doctrine. I know people are going to say "but PC games do it too" but yeah why do they get away with it then?

I know back in the day when CD keys weren't tied to some server, you could use them more than once. So if you sell the game, you sell the key with it.

 

[Baconsammy]

You're right, it'd be a great win for consumers.

Do you hear more consumers complaining about Steam or praising it? It's not about Used games. It's about how they handle price and convenience.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

we weren't talking "sales figures." we were talking availability of games. The games are there, and continue to BE there. AAA, "A", "B", "C" in the hundreds. every year.

Again, if "nobody is selling anything" then why do companies continue to release PSN only and Xbox live only games? exactly. Why are there 100+ releases a year? There are plenty of games that sell just fine, disc and download with little fanfare. sports games, licensed games, games for kids- none of these get much press, but there they are, year after year. Your argument does not hold water, and it's demonstrably false.

NPD shows a decline because we're at the end of the generation. This always happens. Current owners are burned out on software that looks exactly like what they have and offers nothing new, and there is a limited pool of people to sell new consoles to. It's a completely different issue.

If we want to do that argument then nothing has to be said really, businesses make bad decisions all the time. Why did EA releases SWTOR when it was bloody obvious it was a colossal waste of money? Because for someone reason said group who releases something always thinks they're the exception. People release games on WiiWare for crying out loud when NO ONE made money from it apart from probably the Bit.Trip games.

Nevertheless the argument is still clear: AAA have became so dominant on consoles that other budget tier releases have declined, this has not been an issue on PC, where Steam has cultivated a healthy ecosystem for games of all types.

you're scrambling. what does the cost to patch an XBLA game, have to do with overall availability of "A" and "B" games on that platform? The fact that Fez is there period actually harms your argument.

WHAT? It completely backs up my point that MS has not cultivated a system that is viable for developers outside of the AAA environment, it completely corroborates my point!

I am not a lawyer but I have been reading up on this lately and here is the way I understand it as regards US law. One of the reasons that the First Sales Doctrine applies to physical media is because it inherently degrades over time (a used console game disk can become scratched for example). This is not the case with Digital Distribution. A used purely digital copy of a game is in identical condition to a new copy and therefore it is exempt from the First Sales Doctrine.

Furthermore, purely digital media files like mp3s, movies, computer programs, etc... can be copied and/or backed up perfectly an unlimited number of times very easily. This is one of the main arguments I have seen as to why downloaded media is exempt from the First Sales Doctrine, it would be possible for people to buy the game, song, or whatever and then distribute it infinitely by just making copies and reselling as there really is no original copy. This infringes on the copyright holders reproduction rights.

Finally:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

So basically, it seems to me that current US law mandates that consumers must be allowed to sell used physical video game console media. A complete ban on selling used games on physical media would be either outright illegal or fall into a gray area that the courts will have to deliberate on. But again, I am certainly not a lawyer.

Thanks, that seems to explain alot there.

 

[ironcreed]

Do you hear more consumers complaining about Steam or praising it? It's not about Used games. It's about how they handle price and convenience.

That is the only way they can win with this model. Have prices so appealing that nobody will give a shit. Can't say I see that happening, but one can hope.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

That is the only way they can win with this model. Have prices so appealing that nobody will give a shit. Can't say I see that happening, but one can hope.

This. The idea of Xbox LIVE switching to Steam like model can't/won't happen overnight but it's the only way they could get away with blocking second hand sales.

 

[Dire]

I simply don't believe this regardless of the source. Steambox and iPad/smartphones as well as mobile gaming in general are rapidly gaining ground on consoles already. Microsoft 'might' consider making a play like this if they were the big dog in in an uncompetitive monopolized market. However, what we have today in gaming is pretty much as far away from that situation as you could possibly get.

 

[Manmademan]

If we want to do that argument then nothing has to be said really, businesses make bad decisions all the time. Why did EA releases SWTOR when it was bloody obvious it was a colossal waste of money? Because for someone reason said group who releases something always thinks they're the exception. People release games on WiiWare for crying out loud when NO ONE made money from it apart from probably the Bit.Trip games.

Nevertheless the argument is still clear: AAA have became so dominant on consoles that other budget tier releases have declined, this has not been an issue on PC, where Steam has cultivated a healthy ecosystem for games of all types.

So now the "other tier" exists, but it's "declined" keep backtracking.

So where is your evidence of this? PSN only game sales have INCREASED from the beginning of the generation, they haven't declined.

Here are January PSN Sales:


1.) The Unfinished Swan
2.) LittleBigPlanet Karting
3.) Earthworm Jim HD
4.) Journey
5.) Jak & Daxter: The Precursor Legacy HD
6.) Dungeon Hunter: Alliance
7.) Tokyo Jungle
8.) Machinarium
9.) Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch
10.) Ratchet & Clank HD
11.) The House of Dead: Overkill Extended Cut
12.) Mass Effect
13.) Warp
14.) PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale
15.) Nights Into Dreams
16.) Modern Combat: Domination
17.) Jet Set Radio
18.) Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds Complete Edition
19.) Far Cry 3
20.) Grand Theft Auto IV

the only AAA games on this list are old- Mass Effect, GTA IV, and Far Cry. The strongest sellers- Journey, unfinished swan, tokyo jungle, LBP Karting are smaller budget efforts. you are full of crap.

WHAT? It completely backs up my point that MS has not cultivated a system that is viable for developers outside of the AAA environment, it completely corroborates my point!

no, all that says is that microsoft will penalize games that need constant patches. If developers did not think xbox live and PSN were viable, there would be no games released on the platform. The Wii was not viable for third parties in its later years. The X360 is.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

So now the "other tier" exists, but it's "declined" keep backtracking.

So where is your evidence of this? PSN only game sales have INCREASED from the beginning of the generation, they haven't declined.

Here are January PSN Sales:

the only AAA games on this list are old- Mass Effect, GTA IV, and Far Cry. The strongest sellers- Journey, unfinished swan, tokyo jungle, LBP Karting are smaller budget efforts. you are full of crap.

no, all that says is that microsoft will penalize games that need constant patches. If developers did not think xbox live and PSN were viable, there would be no games released on the platform. The Wii was not viable for third parties in its later years. The X360 is.

posting sales charts means nothing, where are the figures?

I'll leave these here and I'm done cos I'm tired arguing with you

http://www.coldbeamgames.com/3/post/2012/11/november-26th-2012.html
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/closure
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=499602

 

[jdmonmou]

I remember an episode of Pach Attack a while back where he said that neither Sony or Microsoft would be stupid enough to block used games without colluding with each other to come to an agreement that both companies would do it. Isn't this against the law since these two companies are conspiring to shut down companies like Gamefly or GameStop? I would think if this is true, then Microsoft and Sony might be sued by those companies.

If this comes true then my worst fear would come to fruition. All these rumors (no backwards compatibility and all games having an activation code) sound like Micorsoft and Sony are giving a middle finger to loyal customers who have supported them for years. I really hope this isn't true, but if these rumors are still here and the systems are both set to release this fall the they probably are true.

If they are true, I'm not buying. I think I'll just use the money I would've spent on new consoles and just double-down on PC gaming by buying upgrades or just building a new one altogether.

 

[Sky Chief]

"This is purely speculation, of course, but I think both will just adopt the online pass format already seen to unlock the online content in EA games, except this time it'll expand to the whole game. When you buy a game brand new you get a one-time code that you can enter to unlock access to the game. If you don't have the code, then you have to pay £5 for the unlock key instead. That way pre-owned games will still exist, but Sony, Microsoft and the game publishers will still get a cut from each successive owner. BOOOM - commerce."

This sounds like a more plausible outcome. It is just a natural progression of the system that is already in place. Better than just outright blocking used games, but it is still marching in the direction of that all the same and it absolutely sucks for us for single player fans. This is sadly just another step towards the inevitable.

I may be misinterpreting this but I believe that that may be in a legally gray area as well:

The first-sale doctrine creates a basic exception to the copyright holder's distribution right. Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. Thus, one who buys a copy of a book is entitled to resell it, rent it, give it away, or destroy it. However, the owner of the copy of the book will not be able to make new copies of the book because the first-sale doctrine does not limit copyright owner's reproduction right. The rationale of the doctrine is to prevent the copyright owner from restraining the free alienability of goods. Without the doctrine, a possessor of a copy of a copyrighted work would have to negotiate with the copyright owner every time he wished to dispose of his copy. After the initial transfer of ownership of a legal copy of a copyrighted work, the first-sale doctrine exhausts copyright holder's right to control how ownership of that copy can be disposed of. For this reason, this doctrine is also referred to as "exhaustion rule."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

It seems to me that such a system would essentially mandate that on each successive sale of the physical media the buyer would have to negotiate with the copyright holder and this is one of the things that the First Sales Doctrine specifically prohibits.

 

[Manmademan]

posting sales charts means nothing, where are the figures?

NPD doesnt get the figures to PSN and live. all you have are top sellers in a relative sense- and the january list shows you that smaller budget games ARE selling there.

I'll leave these here and I'm done cos I'm tired arguing with you

http://www.coldbeamgames.com/3/post/2012/11/november-26th-2012.html
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/closure
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=499602

I'd be tired of getting embarrassed, too. From your own link, jackass:

With the normalised breakdown it’s interesting to see how lucrative XBLIG can be. It made nearly as much money as the full blown PSN version. And don’t forget, the XBLIG version was the base version, no extra ships or modes, no multiplayer, no leader boards or achievements. It shows you can get great sales on XBLIG

good day

 

[Baconsammy]

Given how far-out plans are made, you have to wonder if Microsoft built a lot of their plans around Windows Phone/Surface/Windows 8 integration. If so....good bloody luck. If it's built around all tablets/phones etc, then they chose wisely.

 

[Delusibeta]

I think the point is that non-AAA retail has declined to the point of extinction (outside of niche Japanese games, and even they are moving towards digital distribution). Nobody is releasing something like Downhill Domination on disc any more, never mind the bankruptcy of Midway and THQ. No western developer is releasing a non-AAA game on disc.

 

[Montresor]

I had a lot of time to think about these rumours since this thread was first created. At first I lamented the two negative points (always online and no used games).

Now I realize that it honestly doesn't matter, not even a little bit. I guess I was attached to the idealized notion of used games. But I buy all my games brand new. And although I do borrow and lend games between friends, I have no problem giving money to developers who have more than earned it over the past couple of years (and will continue to do so in the next couple of years) with excellent software. I'm going to borrow Rayman Origins from my friend and I'm likely going to adore it. But it would probably be better that I purchase it brand new, especially since this is a game that failed miserably in the sales charts.

I'll be there on day one for the Durango/720. I reaaallly hope that Microsoft bolsters their 1st-party lineup though. I'm very intrigued by their new IPs.

Also... is Alan Wake 2 possible as a launch title?

 

[statham]

NPD doesnt get the figures to PSN and live. all you have are top sellers in a relative sense- and the january list shows you that smaller budget games ARE selling there.



I'd be tired of getting embarrassed, too. From your own link, jackass:



good day

wow.

 

[Manmademan]

I think the point is that non-AAA retail has declined to the point of extinction. Nobody is releasing something like Downhill Domination on disc any more, never mind the bankruptcy of Midway and THQ.

non AAA retail is still there. PSN and Live have matured to the point where it makes more sense to release things as download only, but there's still a VERY large amount of software being released every month that's not AAA.

Midway I can't comment on, but THQ's bankruptcy had nothing to do with the decline of non AAA software, and EVERYTHING to do with fucking up with Udraw and bad management.

 

[Delusibeta]

non AAA retail is still there.

Western developed non-AAA retail games are extinct, outside of blatant shovelware (Imagine Champion Jockey 3D, anyone?)

 

[qko]

Won´t happen. Pubs will lose half of their sales.


Smart? More like extremely dumb. Pubs will sell half as much software and they have their shareholders to answer to. Pubs will lose plenty of money and besides if any publisher will do that consumers will always find a game to replace the lost game, like BF if COD went exclusive to MS (won´t happen).

How would they lose half their sales, when the sales most sale trackers count are new and uneffected by used sales? Most pubs have been underselling this generation and the shutdowns have already been happening.

 

[Linkified]

Given how far-out plans are made, you have to wonder if Microsoft built a lot of their plans around Windows Phone/Surface/Windows 8 integration. If so....good bloody luck. If it's built around all tablets/phones etc, then they chose wisely.

Well Smart glass works with IPads and Android tablets, no? Didn't MS want to get Xbox Music on the iOS store eventually?

 

[Manmademan]

Western developed non-AAA retail games are extinct, outside of blatant shovelware (Imagine Champion Jockey 3D, anyone?)

When we say "no western developer is releasing non AAA software on disc" that excludes a lot of studios for no reason. Sega just released "Anarchy reigns" and at a budget price to boot. They're also doing Aliens: Colonial Marines sometime soon.

are we ignoring sports titles? I'd be hesitant to classify anything that's not Madden or Tiger Woods as AAA, but there's a ton of these.

are we ignoring licensed titles? things like "Rise of the guardians" the video game will always see a release. I'm sure we'll also see tie ins to Iron Man and Superman this year as well. The walking dead is getting a disc based version of telltale's game, and there is another game (survival instinct?) still coming.


but sure- if we exclude anything on PSN or XBLA, exclude titles from JP studios, exclude anything that's "shovelware", exclude any sports titles, and exclude anything using a license, then sure- non AAA software is looking sparse at retail.

 

[Jinko]

One thing for sure is if this is true PSN + looks a whole lot better

I'll no longer buy and just rent (through PSN) instead.

 

[ironcreed]

Were I trying to hammer such a new scheme through, I would sell new physical copies of games for $49.99 and would make digital download more appealing by selling the same new games at $39.99. Only by lowering prices can they make people swallow not being able to buy used, and they would also be making a more appealing transition to buying digital at the same time by offering digital downloads at a lower price than physical copies. Two birds with one stone, as it were. Giving me cheaper games is the only way I will ever be on board with this. But I don't see it happening.

 

[Manmademan]

Were I trying to hammer such a new scheme through, I would sell new physical copies of games for $49.99 and would make digital download more appealing by selling the same new games at $39.99. Only by lowering prices can they make people swallow not being able to buy used, and they would also be making a more appealing transition to buying digital at the same time by offering digital downloads at a lower price than physical copies. Two birds with one stone, as it were. Giving me cheaper games is the only way I will ever be on board with this. But I don't see it happening.

This actually DOES make a lot of sense, but I vaguely recall "not pissing off retail partners" as part of the reason why this doesn't happen more often with downloadable versions of console titles.

The PSPGo showed there's a fine line manufacturers have to walk if they want retailers to carry and promote their systems.

 

[ironcreed]

This actually DOES make a lot of sense, but I vaguely recall "not pissing off retail partners" as part of the reason why this doesn't happen more often with downloadable versions of console titles.

The PSPGo showed there's a fine line manufacturers have to walk if they want retailers to carry and promote their systems.

Which is unfortunate, because sooner or later they need to realize that it is the consumers who ultimately buy the product. Making things a bit more appealing to them should be common sense if they want their efforts in eliminating the used market and physical copies to be a glowing success.

There has to be a middle ground where everyone is happy. For the consumer, that means cheaper games and routine deals. Don't think it will happen, but it's the only way I think they will be successful in such an endeavor. Otherwise, there will just be too much backlash.

 

[PaulLFC]

One thing that for some reason never occurred to me until now - if "no more used games" is brought in, what happens to older games after a couple of years?

Are publishers going to carry on reprinting their back catalogues indefinitely? I very much doubt it. There's always digital, but that would mean that every game would have to be available digitally as well as at retail. There's also the question or whether publishers will do what they have this gen with digital downloads of console games and massively inflate the asking prices compared to retail prices.

 

[Codeblew]

Do you have a recent source for that? Because all I know of was the old 2012 rumour, which, even if it was correct, was probably old information from the very first dev kit anyway. It really wouldn't make any sense at all for Sony to drop LibGCM entirely. I could maybe see a dual implementation happening, allowing devs to choose between OpenGL ES (full OpenGL would be stupid) or LibGCM, but OpenGL would provide very few benefits, so it doesn't make any sense.

I am not sure that LibGCM is going away. I think I heard that here a while back and do not have a link. So maybe that isn't true.

It makes sense to me that they wouldn't want to spend the time to port two gfx libs to their new hardware, especially since one of them is cross-platform. Maybe people like LibGCM enough for them to do so.

 

[Manmademan]

Which is unfortunate, because sooner or later they need to realize that it is the consumers who ultimately buy the product. Making things a bit more appealing to them should be common sense if they want their efforts in eliminating the used market and physical copies to be a glowing success.

There has to be a middle ground where everyone is happy. For the consumer, that means cheaper games and routine deals. Don't think it will happen, but it's the only way I think they will be successful in such an endeavor. Otherwise, there will just be too much backlash.

true. Sony and Microsoft (and nintendo? I'm not sure) are in this position mostly because the current business model has gotten consumers used to paying for hardware that has very little to no profit margin attached to it.

If they could get away with selling consoles with outrageous markups as apple does, it wouldn't be an issue- retailers would be happy, games would be cheap- but then we would be looking at $599 consoles as the standard, and I can't see that taking off.

One thing that for some reason never occurred to me until now - if "no more used games" is brought in, what happens to older games after a couple of years?

Are publishers going to carry on reprinting their back catalogues indefinitely? I very much doubt it. There's always digital, but that would mean that every game would have to be available digitally as well as at retail. There's also the question or whether publishers will do what they have this gen with digital downloads of console games and massively inflate the asking prices compared to retail prices.

older games would only be available via collectors or specialty outlets that kept them sealed, and sold for outrageous prices. for gamers who are interested in large collections (I am) this is terrible. It's also possible that MS could sell an "unlock code" as they do for online play for used games though.

 

[PSYGN]

I can see some games going digital, but there will be many where the file size is just too large for many consumers to swallow, whether it be technical reasons (limited bandwidth, limited HDD space) or just impatience... I don't want to wait a day to game after I purchase it. Especially with the fact that next-gen is coming along and will allow for assets of higher quality. But will they gimp this just so they can be more consumable digitally? I want to see games at their full polish, pure hd assets and all.

I could imagine a wall for digital downloads at GameStop for games like this. If the PS4 had an easily detachable HDD caddy type peripheral built in, one could feasibly take this to that wall, lock it into a slot, pick a game and swipe the card. Browse around the store or go out and return. Probably best if that was handled by staff behind the counter, though.

 

[ironcreed]

true. Sony and Microsoft (and nintendo? I'm not sure) are in this position mostly because the current business model has gotten consumers used to paying for hardware that has very little to no profit margin attached to it.

If they could get away with selling consoles with outrageous markups as apple does, it wouldn't be an issue- retailers would be happy, games would be cheap- but then we would be looking at $599 consoles as the standard, and I can't see that taking off.

Yeah, it's a real catch-22 situation. I just hate seeing the consumers getting screwed more and more, with little given in return. Whereas, it should be a bit more give and take. They make enough off us, taking away more and more and giving back little is going to eventually reach a breaking point... for them.

They need to remember the old rule that making your customers happy will pay off in the long run. You want to block used games and make more money? OK, give me cheaper games and I'll be happy to buy new all the time. Further, give me cheaper digital titles and I will be happy to give up physical copies. It should be that simple, but too bad it isn't.

 

[Manmademan]

Yeah, it's a real catch-22 situation. I just hate seeing the consumers getting screwed more and more, with little given in return. Whereas, it should be a bit more give and take. They make enough off us, taking away more and more and giving back little is going to eventually reach a breaking point... for them.

They need to remember the old rule that making your customers happy will pay off in the long run. You want to block used games and make more money? OK, give me cheaper games and I'll be happy to buy new all the time. Further, give me cheaper digital titles and I will be happy to give up physical copies. It should be that simple, but too bad it isn't.

But that's the thing- blocking used games won't make them more money. It's the same fallacious reasoning the MPAA and RIAA use that says every downloaded copy was obviously a retail sale that was "stolen." Used sales are complementary to new sales and co-exist alongside them. They're not "lost" sales except in the most minor cases.

The constant pressure from publicly traded companies to make that 10% YOY profit or whatever leads to terrible business decisions in the name of squeezing every last penny, whether it makes sense or not.

 

[ironcreed]

But that's the thing- blocking used games won't make them more money. It's the same fallacious reasoning the MPAA and RIAA use that says every downloaded copy was obviously a retail sale that was "stolen." Used sales are complementary to new sales and co-exist alongside them. They're not "lost" sales except in the most minor cases.

The constant pressure from publicly traded companies to make that 10% YOY profit or whatever leads to terrible business decisions in the name of squeezing every last penny, whether it makes sense or not.

I would agree with you, but the crusade towards eliminating the used market is obviously marching on. What shape it is going to take next remains to be seen, but given the rumors, I think it's safe to assume some 'next step' is most certainly going to be taken.

I can't stand the thought of this, I was merely offering up my only compromise, should a total move to block them as rumored occurs. If they do this, they need to give something back in order to get people to support the move and be on their side. Personally, I would enjoy the taste of cheaper games, but it is not going to happen.

 

[spekkeh]

Suddenly the Wii U doesn't seem so bad anymore.

To be frank this won't actually hinder me. The last time my home internet had downtime was over a year ago, and nowadays you could just as easily tether from your smartphone if it does happen. With the way retail game prices drop quickly, I really can't be arsed to go through the process of selling on my used games for a few pennies either, might as well throw them in the bin after finishing them.

It's totally unlike Steam, which refused to let me play on my laptop during an intercontinental plane flight and can subsequently die in a fire.

However, I'm completely opposed to this principle of games being a service you buy a license to, and the subscription model Microsoft seems to be pushing. I was already annoyed by the way they handled Xbox Live subscriptions this gen, and this seems to cement the deal for me going PS4 next time.