Denial of what? lol
Lightning - "Why the hate?"
- Thread starter TheFLYINGManga_Ka
- Start date
Denial of what? lol
Yeah...no. Squall is much better developed than Lightning and is more interesting in every way.
Okay. It's clear that you're reading my posts however way you want to read it rather than reading it for what it actually means. Look at my original post again. Seriously.
1.) What you're saying has NO RELEVANCE to what I said originally. I was refuting the point that she didn't JUST lose her parents. How does what you say have any relevance to that point? It doesn't. Just stop.
2.) The vast majority are not questioning. In fact I can pretty much say that nearly everyone thinks Pulse-related stuff is bad. Your original statement is as follows "At the same time, the world she lives in is undergoing a massive and complex debate/questioning of who is good and who is bad." This is not true. There is no massive complex debate/questioning. How can there be a massive complex debate if there is no substantial group opposing another idea. The group is an extremely small minority. EXTREMELY small. Stop trying to say that your point is coherent. It's not. It's contradictory.
3.) It's not a valid point because all you're saying is the same thing as you did previously. You didn't directly address my point. Instead all you're doing is screaming the same thing despite me saying otherwise. If you don't see what's wrong with that then you don't understand how to have a proper discussion. You're only concerned with your own sayings and thoughts. Not only is that extremely arrogant but it's extremely insulting to the people that are trying to have a proper refutation/discussion/argument with you.
4.) Once again. You didn't refute what I original posted and you're not looking at the details/basis of my argument.
5.) I don't get it. I really don't get it. Is it really that difficult to address my points? Like... you just described what a stupid/meaningless plotpoint is but you're wrapped up in your own logic that you refuse to read my posts and just blind yourself with ignorance. I just.... don't get it.
6.) It's an analogy. I'm drawing a connection between you and Toriyama of how both of you did the exact same thing as I pointed out. If you don't see the connection then you're blind to what you're doing or you just don't know how to read my posts with meaning.
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Lightning and Bayonetta are my favorite new characters from this gen. They are both gorgeous, tough, and independent. Love women like that! I'm VERY excited for Lighting Returns FFXIII 
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Well considering you couldn't remember when Lightning lost her parents, and the fact you neglected to mention her father, and for one who should be THE Lightning fan I think detail should have been your most important aspect, and when Kayos proves you wrong and you have no counter you claim Kayos simply misunderstands with no reason to back up that claim in the first place.
Hence denial of facts before you and denial of being in denial in the first place.
It's as if you have selective reading.
This isn't even my problem with this entire discussion. It's the fact that he keeps misreading the entirety of my post, goes to ignore whatever statement I made, and repeating the same thing over and over and over again. It's like talking with a child.
EDIT: It's tautological in a sense. This is how I see the discussion.
Child: I think strawberry ice cream is the best ice cream
Adult: How so?
Child: I think strawberry ice cream is the best ice cream
Adult: I understand but what reasons make you believe that it's the best ice cream?
Child: I think strawberry ice cream is the best ice cream
Adult: Yes. I got it. But how come?
Child: I think strawberry ice cream is the best ice cream
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Well it's generally difficult to reason with a White Knight.
It isn't gonna matter what point you bring up.
Edit: That makes more sense then it should. The whole adult/child analogy.
I did get the "massive" part wrong, I admit, but why are you saying I am the one that keep repeating, when you are the one that keeps saying I cant read? Seriosly? Stop trying to make me look dumb because my rhetoric is not as good as yours. I adressed all your points with what I think while expanding on what I first said. How am I being arrogant? Wtf, this is really bizarre. We are going in circles with this.
Edit: I am DONE with you guys seriously. How annoying can this Magius guy be getting everything to the personal level without actually engaging in the discussion? Jesus Christ. Also calling me child now. What the hell, I mean... really. I will just leave right now since Im starting to get nervous. x_x
You are repeating. If you're failing to see that you're repeating and not addressing the points then I don't know what else to say to you. I've refuted your points but all you do is say the same thing that you originally said but word it differently and expect that to be the retort to my refutation. It doesn't work like that. Additionally I'm only repeating because you're not addressing my points. At all. You're ignoring my sayings entirely and just going about in your own little world. If that's not arrogant then I don't know what is. You have no regard for what others say, other than the fact that you take the time to respond.
Also, I'm not trying to make you look dumb. I'm only refuting. Your posts show you exactly how pointless, futile, and meaningless this discussion is. You make yourself stupid. Not me. Also, yes I'm versed in rhetoric. Yes I know how to refute things. However, throughout the entirety of the discussion I've pointed out what you're doing wrong and told you WHAT TO DO to move things along yet you haven't done it. At all. Once again, you're doing this to yourself. Not me.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Refer to my tag.
-----------------------------------
So you are leaving because you have no counter-claim to the essential evaluation of Lightning as a character?
I did not call you a child. I said it was like talking to a child. There is a difference. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I do have counter claims, and I am totally open to continue the discussion via PM if kayos wants, because I like to discuss the lore/plot of the games I enjoy. I am just not willing to do so while you are interrupting with clear attempts to make me get banned with your annoying sarcastic comments and non-answers. -_____________________- Seriously Magius, just stop. Put me on your ignore list or something please.
Im sorry if I misunderstood you. But you did say "is like tallking to a child" thus comparing me to one.
If you have counter claims then make them. Refute my points. I would love to have a well-developed discussion. As for Magius, you don't have to read his posts. If it's annoying then you can ignore him altogether. Don't use him as an excuse to not post. Additionally I don't understand why you're trying to move this discussion to a PM rather than stick in the thread.
To further develop this discussion I would like to note that just because a character is flat doesn't mean the character is bad or boring. Look at Yuri from Tales of Vesperia. He remains a flat character throughout because he relatively fully developed. What makes him interesting isn't in how he develops but the actions he takes due to his developed persona.
Lighting is a cool character and there's really not all that much wrong with her. She wasn't my favorite character in the XIII series, but she's neat.
The primary reason people seem to be using for dismissing her is that she has no personality, but when you just sit and think about the infinitely vast list of characters that are extremely popular despite having virtually no personality to speak of, it becomes clear that this simply is not the reason people hate her. Mario, Master Chief, Link, Samus, every FF character before VI, (and nearly every side character in the entire FF series), and on and on and on. Lightning's story is not that far removed from Shadow in FFVI, or Auron in FFX and no one goes on about how much they hate those characters. The amount of loved and adored characters in gaming that have no personality is so long that to discard them all would be to discard almost all of gaming as we know it. So it's just impossible that this is the reason.
So yeah, it seems to me like a lot of people seem to have successfully lied to themselves about what is really going on when they start ranting endlessly about Lightning.
I think the first post nailed it. People use her as a scapegoat and a launching off point to bitch endlessly about SQEX, Toriyama, how much they don't like the direction that the company is going in and every other possible complaint you can think of.
Full stop. It's not about Lightning, not about her character, her visual design, or her lack of a personality. Those who insist that it is are lying to themselves, and to everyone else. The exaggerated and ever-intense hate for Lightning is extremely hyperbolic and, frankly, irrational.
The primary reason people seem to be using for dismissing her is that she has no personality, but when you just sit and think about the infinitely vast list of characters that are extremely popular despite having virtually no personality to speak of, it becomes clear that this simply is not the reason people hate her. Mario, Master Chief, Link, Samus, every FF character before VI, (and nearly every side character in the entire FF series), and on and on and on. Lightning's story is not that far removed from Shadow in FFVI, or Auron in FFX and no one goes on about how much they hate those characters. The amount of loved and adored characters in gaming that have no personality is so long that to discard them all would be to discard almost all of gaming as we know it. So it's just impossible that this is the reason.
So yeah, it seems to me like a lot of people seem to have successfully lied to themselves about what is really going on when they start ranting endlessly about Lightning.
I think the first post nailed it. People use her as a scapegoat and a launching off point to bitch endlessly about SQEX, Toriyama, how much they don't like the direction that the company is going in and every other possible complaint you can think of.
Full stop. It's not about Lightning, not about her character, her visual design, or her lack of a personality. Those who insist that it is are lying to themselves, and to everyone else. The exaggerated and ever-intense hate for Lightning is extremely hyperbolic and, frankly, irrational.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
It's just not my style to ignore people. You can discuss lore and plot all you want. Of course if you take it seriously I should at least expect it to be 100% accurate.
I believe 6 years of coping and getting one's life situated is far long enough to readjust.
Not to mention discarding her own true name is similar to simply running away from one's past. You fail to mention how the mother died, and you also fail to mention the father at all.
Furthermore this would have been a perfect opportunity to compare Lightning's reaction to Serah being an L'cie with Hope's dad's reaction to his son being a L'cie, in that you see a large difference in how one acted as opposed to the other.
However you did not. And that is an issue I have. Things happen for a reason and I like to see those reasons addressed. You aren't in Lightning's head so you can't dictate what she feels, only make assumptions on the actions she takes.
Which since the entirety of the game is storydriven and you don't know her motives or basic feelings it becomes less of an RPG since a majority of feelings you are made aware of happen to coincide with Vanille.
You've just arbitrated this entire discussion and almost any discussion about characters as a whole. Did you know that?
Yeah, my least favorite as well. His behavior towards his 'friends' was really repulsive, abandonment complex or not. But Lightning displays some of that same off-putting behavior towards her buddies. I just do not enjoy stepping into that type of character's shoes. But other than those two, I've generally liked every FF lead.
The next lead, however, really needs to refresh the role. Zidane worked nicely after Squall; would be great to see someone similar to that type in FFXV.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Kind of an obvious point, but if XIII was a much better game than it is, people would like her more, even if her personality and design were the same.
I just said what I think. No one has ever made a thread on here even once about Link lacking a personality, or Master Chief, or Samus. But Lightning gets one every day.
Why? I think it's easy to say that on average, gamers don't seem to mind when some of their all time favorite characters have little to no personality, even in this same series.
Seems extremely clear to me that it's about something else.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I think in most cases players make viewpoints as if they were that character, as you essentially completely control their actions and can use your imagination for what they might say. Characters lacking in personality generally are given one by the player through imagination.
Lightning has a pre-set personality so it is different. She is written to think a certain way and have certain mannerisms predetermined by the writer.
This is departed somewhat in XIII-2 when you can choose different dialogue choices.
To be honest Lightning probably gets all the hate due to the fact she is the postergirl of the XIII series.
Who's the first FF character that comes to mind for each installment? The posterchild.
I think the problem with this is expectations. I mean... do you go into a Zelda, Mario, or Pikmin game expecting character development, a grand plot, or a meaningful theme? I don't think so. Not only this but the genre of RPGs tend to focus on narratives as a whole. I do think that you bring up a good point that Lightning gets a lot of shit. I think a bad character gets easily overlooked is due to the plot. There is nothing substantially great about XIII's narrative as a whole and as a result Lightning stands out.
Jawmuncher
Member
Lighting hate is mainly tied with her game not being very liked. Not to mention the guy who made her forces her on fans.
Regardless I enjoy her design and look.
Personality and character itself need some work though.
Regardless I enjoy her design and look.
Personality and character itself need some work though.
The developers didn't intend for these character to have personalities, they are essentially avatars for gameplay. Lightning on the other hand was clearly intended to have character and a major role in the story outside of being the player character. In the end, I feel the hate is more a result of the focus they put on her.
what if lighting looked like this op
would you still like her
That actually looks kind of cool.
I don't have all that much against Lightning. She was one of the least offensive elements of FFXIII's poor cast. The thing I dislike about her the most is a critique I could apply to basically everyone in that game's main cast; she develops from an interesting, flawed character into a boring perfect archetype.
Lightning was unusually misanthropic for a Final Fantasy character in the early going, but I liked that there was somebody willing to punch Snow in the face. He deserved it. And her guarded cynicism may have made her come across as one-note, but it made her different. Her development as she traveled alongside Hope was probably the only character point in the game executed with any degree of competence, outside of Sazh's story.
Once the party gets together, though, the bland personality-free sludge of never-say-die and friendship and hope overtakes every single character in the game, and Lightning becomes completely unremarkable. And things like the forced revelations about her name didn't change that. Things like personality and levity might be victims of the game's single-minded structure, which didn't leave much room for down-time or real characterization.
These would be pretty forgivable faults if FFXIII was a better game, or if the saga didn't continue to dominate Square's release schedule. If those were true, I'd be able to forget the whole thing happened. These continued reminders force me to reengage with my opinion of Lightning, and time doesn't make me any kinder.
I don't think I'd be much kinder to Vaan if I had to think about it, but then again, Square isn't making FFXII-3: Vaan Returns.
Lightning was unusually misanthropic for a Final Fantasy character in the early going, but I liked that there was somebody willing to punch Snow in the face. He deserved it. And her guarded cynicism may have made her come across as one-note, but it made her different. Her development as she traveled alongside Hope was probably the only character point in the game executed with any degree of competence, outside of Sazh's story.
Once the party gets together, though, the bland personality-free sludge of never-say-die and friendship and hope overtakes every single character in the game, and Lightning becomes completely unremarkable. And things like the forced revelations about her name didn't change that. Things like personality and levity might be victims of the game's single-minded structure, which didn't leave much room for down-time or real characterization.
These would be pretty forgivable faults if FFXIII was a better game, or if the saga didn't continue to dominate Square's release schedule. If those were true, I'd be able to forget the whole thing happened. These continued reminders force me to reengage with my opinion of Lightning, and time doesn't make me any kinder.
I don't think I'd be much kinder to Vaan if I had to think about it, but then again, Square isn't making FFXII-3: Vaan Returns.
That's a popular opinion as well, but I disagree with it.
In the first game, she really wasn't exclusively depicted as the main character. It was an ensemble cast, and originally Fang and Vanille were the main characters and it shows. They basically save everything at the end, and Vanille narrates the game. In XIII-2, she's barely even in the game and is not the focus then either. She was considered popular enough to be on the cover in the NA release, but in Japan it's just a white box with the logo on the cover.
In Lightning Returns she is undoubtedly the focus now. Part of why they're making the game all about her is because they feel like they haven't even really made a game that focuses on her yet, even once, so I don't fully understand where people are coming from when they go on about her overexposure and Toriyama's obsession and so on, considering he directed XIII and XIII-2, both of which don't really even star her as the main character.
If people aren't into LR because of this it would make sense, but the Lightning hate online certainly pre-dates LR's announcement.
Less can sometimes be more. Think of how people like their silent Journey co-op companions, yet hate people in voice chat on Xbox Live. Or the people who liked Samus when she was a silent character, but took issue with her characterization in Other M.
Link, Samus, and Chief basically never talk. Lightning is a defined character with a large speaking role in a wider drama. They're fundamentally different.
Very well said. You hit the nail on the head.
Edit: just out of curiousity, how do you think the lack of towns or NPCs affected the percieved development of 13s characters? They just felt like they were in a bit of a void and had no real connections to the world. (its been a while since I played 13 so I might have forgotten some stuff)
->
I feel very similar. I still like Lightning and for me, she showed at least enough traces of emotion to empathize with her. But the big flaw in character design is, that although they put interesting topics in the game (the whole sister is engaged to a man she thinks isn't the best for her, which is barely a topic in video games or being kind of a "role model" (not sure that's the right expression in the context) for a boy who lost his mother) but everything is handled without much depth and besides that, we didn't get much to know about Lightning in general.
I hope they improve on that in the third game. The second wasn't much better in this regard but she didn't have much screen time anyway.
I think it's a combination of things, but some of the ire directed at her definitely comes from fatigue with her character. Even well-liked and popular characters, like Ezio from Assassin's Creed, have worn out their welcome this gen.
And not only that, but FF is a series where the lead always changes in each subsequent game, so if you didn't care for one protag, no worries, another would come along eventually. The expectations for FF are different than, say, Zelda, where you know you're always going to play as Link. By the time this gen is over, Lightning will have lead three games (I'm counting Duodecim) with a prominent role in one other (XIII-2) and appearances in Threatramadamadingdong and that nonsense iOS game. She IS the sole face of FF this gen, which is a departure from the series norm.
dark_chris
Member
Lightning is an alright character but I dont get why people love her. Its the same thing why I dont get the Final Fantasy 7 love.
Final Fantasy 8 is better than FF7 and Lightning
Final Fantasy 8 is better than FF7 and Lightning
Kageshinzo
Member
Crisis Core is just a plus. All the Compilation of FFVII media are just cash grab attempts by Square to milk the FFVII fanboys who can't just leave FFVII the fuck alone. We don't even need Zack's complete backstory to appreciate the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII.
As for Lightning, I'm apathetic about the character. She's just a cardboard cut-out character in a bland and totally shitty game that Toriyama, for some inane and stupid reason only he knows, wants to push on to FF fans.
People who say Dissidia is bad are bad people. It's plot is silly, sure, but the backstory stuff to WoL, Chaos, Cosmos and Cid was kinda cool. But nobody expected Dissidia to be a huge story, it was always to be silly fanservice.
A decent story, customizability, the ability to turn left and right, relatable or at least likeable characters, you know, all the things that Square used to be able to do.
maybe you should look for different games then, you're not gonna find that in a Square game
I have to disagree. Square has proved recently they can make games just the way they used to. FF Dimensions, Type-0, Four Heroes of Light, and Bravely Default have all proven Square still knows what to do, how to do it, and can in fact do it. That they cannot do it in a mainline FF game is what's got so many so riled.
Essentially, XIII sucked, and Square is acting like people loved it they way they loved IV, VII or X (the other titles to receive this kind of treatment.)
EDIT: MAGIUS NECROS DEALING DEATH BLOWS.
Unknown One
Member
I would argue that Squall actually has a personality and character development. Lightning is a flat cardboard of a character.
Kageshinzo
Member
maybe you should look for different games then, you're not gonna find that in a Square game
Chrono Trigger.
Front Mission 3.
Hell, I'll even throw in Vagrant Story, just for shits and giggles.
"Affecting the perceived development" lol. Towns are a gimmick. You can do much better characters without the use of some static buildings.
Like in Fire Emblem Awakening. Towns are just blips on the map to buy stuff, like it should be. I only want to go into towns to buy stuff, not talk to every NPC in fear of not knowing what to do next or missing out on some obscure sidequest.
It's a good point. Link, Samus, and Mario are never really the focus in any story-driven game. Their personalities are shallow, because they're just blank-slate avatars for the players actions.
We've equated Lighting with Mario. They both have the same degree of depth and character development. Yet one annoys players, and the other is ignored. Why?
Imagine if a Mario had a cutscene every 20 minutes. And Mario stops in his journey to spend a few minutes talking about how he's going to save ̶S̶e̶r̶a̶h̶ the princess. And that there's an ice level up ahead, and how he needs to go there to save the princess. Because he is going to save the princess. Imagine hours of cutscenes and hundreds of lines of dialogue of just this.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
She has cockblocked us three times from getting this:
I mean the games lol
Both.
“I spoke about a number of things with Mr. Hashimoto today. It looks like Versus won’t be at Tokyo Game Show. They’re first putting all their effort info FFXIV and the Lightning Saga finale.” Shar later added, “He said that we’re developing it, so please look forward to next year.”
Kageshinzo
Member
She has cockblocked us three times from getting this:
I mean the games lol
This is another thing I don't understand about GAF. What the fuck is the deal with the extremely massive hard-on for this game? Is it just the overhype about its long development? Irony?
I seriously do not get it, and I am/was a massive FF fan, especially considering how it's somewhat linked to one of the most divisive FF titles in the franchise's history.
I'm going to copy+paste an earlier post of mine regarding the role of towns
The very first town in Final Fantasy X tells us nearly everything we need to know about that world, by hour 2 of the game.