Maybe for you, but not for me.
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Persona 4 Accused of Being Anti-Gay in Gamespot article
- Thread starter Levito
- Start date
Maybe for you, but not for me.
StopMakingSense
Member
All Teddy talked about was gettin' with the ladies.
Hot Coldman
Banned
The idea that Atlus messed up by not going "all the way" with Kanji is something I've always found silly. That sentiment is clearly born out of a big external factor- the almost complete lack of non-caricature, respectable gay characters in games. Get mad at other developers for not even trying anything with gay characters; don't look down on Atlus for creating a very specific arc for one of their characters. They should have the freedom to do that without having to consider filling in a void or some other unnecessary task.
I understand where the author's coming from, but I think they'd need to complete the game and finish their Social Links to have a better understanding of their character, as some have said. I also feel that there's a certain level of projecting here, especially when she talks about Naoto.
Something about her insistence to refer to her as "he" is off-putting.
Something about her insistence to refer to her as "he" is off-putting.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Bleh, at least they should have tried in making the scenario a bit more creative.
Guys getting pounded due to them getting found out peeking at girls? That's like, totally 10000000% Japanese-trope cliche-ridden....cliche, man.
Here's what I commented on the article:
Going to have to completely disagree with the point on Kanji. Kanji clearly has social anxiety, and is uncomfortable around women. Being young he looks at it in a very 1 dimensional way, he thinks to himself: "I'm afraid of women, maybe I'm gay..." He thinks he's gay because he's uncomfortable around women, he comes to realization later on later on that he's just insecure and unsure. Almost everyone at some point in their life questions their sexuality regardless of their sexual orientation.
On the point of Yosuke taking a jab at Kanji on the camping trip, that seems exactly what Yosuke's character would do, because he has his own insecurities as well. That kind of prejudice exists in real life for LGBT people, and in a lot of ways it would be discourteous of the game to pretend LGBT people don't go through that sort of thing all the time, even from close friends. Yosuke saying something homophobic doesn't mean that that reflects the actual feelings of the developers, as characters are NOT just mouthpieces for the creator's in a story. Just look at Django Unchained, that movie is FULL of racist characters, does that mean Quentin Tarantino is racist? No of course not.
On the point of Naoto, I see where you're coming from, I was a little let down by the revelation that Naoto was in fact not transgender. However that does not mean the game is against transgender people, Naoto thought she had to become a man for anyone to take her seriously as a detective, she could not accept that she was in fact a women. She HATED that she was a woman, not because she felt she was supposed to be male, but because she thought she would never be taken seriously as a female detective. In the end she accepts her gender and learns something about herself. If anything Naoto's story in P4 is all about the kind of crap women have to go through in certain professions, and it's pointing out the sexism in a lot of industries/job fields.
Saying Persona 4 is "Anti-gay" is basically calling the developers homophobes based solely on your own interpretation of what was going on with the characters in the game, that's not fair at all.
Going to have to completely disagree with the point on Kanji. Kanji clearly has social anxiety, and is uncomfortable around women. Being young he looks at it in a very 1 dimensional way, he thinks to himself: "I'm afraid of women, maybe I'm gay..." He thinks he's gay because he's uncomfortable around women, he comes to realization later on later on that he's just insecure and unsure. Almost everyone at some point in their life questions their sexuality regardless of their sexual orientation.
On the point of Yosuke taking a jab at Kanji on the camping trip, that seems exactly what Yosuke's character would do, because he has his own insecurities as well. That kind of prejudice exists in real life for LGBT people, and in a lot of ways it would be discourteous of the game to pretend LGBT people don't go through that sort of thing all the time, even from close friends. Yosuke saying something homophobic doesn't mean that that reflects the actual feelings of the developers, as characters are NOT just mouthpieces for the creator's in a story. Just look at Django Unchained, that movie is FULL of racist characters, does that mean Quentin Tarantino is racist? No of course not.
On the point of Naoto, I see where you're coming from, I was a little let down by the revelation that Naoto was in fact not transgender. However that does not mean the game is against transgender people, Naoto thought she had to become a man for anyone to take her seriously as a detective, she could not accept that she was in fact a women. She HATED that she was a woman, not because she felt she was supposed to be male, but because she thought she would never be taken seriously as a female detective. In the end she accepts her gender and learns something about herself. If anything Naoto's story in P4 is all about the kind of crap women have to go through in certain professions, and it's pointing out the sexism in a lot of industries/job fields.
Saying Persona 4 is "Anti-gay" is basically calling the developers homophobes based solely on your own interpretation of what was going on with the characters in the game, that's not fair at all.
Except Yosuke still did that at times until Kanji got the hots for Naoto and they both learned Naoto was a girl instead of a boy.
In fact, I feel P4 really pussed out on having a gay story-line and acceptance. Kanji's only confused like a typical teenage boy until HEY Naoto is actually a girl, so you're 'kay! LOLZ! which kinda was a slap in the face after going through his dungeon and working with him on his feelings.
Tears For Fears said:
Seta (fuck "official" names, that's the Manga/first "canon" name, so deal) is completely straight and again: Atlus pussed out on the homosexual line because you can't date Kanji because Kanji is questioning but doesn't come to accept that hey maybe he likes men.
Teddy/Kuma is a horn-dog (albit naive) that plays on the androgynous bishonin stereotype in most anime.
Persona 4 is anti-gay?
Someone needs to replay the game and pay attention next time.
This. My mind gets blown everytime I see people saying that Kanji is gay and Naoto is a transgender. Did I play the same persona 4 as you? lol
Chie Satonaka
Member
So, did this person play the same game as I did? Because that's not what happened at all.
In fact, every gay person I know who played the game loved P4's take on sexual identity and gender roles, especially for teens who are growing up.
This isn't even just sensationalist, it's just flat out wrong.
Callibretto
Member
isn't there event during school festifal where they have date cafe and MC can willingly play the female role and even said he prefer Kanji when asked what kind of man he like?
No. Teddie's just sexually driven in all sorts of ways, but he's pretty much straight:
ShockingAlberto
Member
Yeah, the bath house scene wasn't...great.
I didn't really like a lot of Golden's non-gameplay additions, really. It felt like they were trying to target a mass audience that wouldn't care about that stuff if they didn't already care about Persona.
Hot Coldman
Banned
That's the "goofing around" option
To be fair, Yosuke is suppose to be an immature teenager. His shadow was basically an extreme representation of his immaturity and resentment. It's something he better with as the game goes along.
I wonder if the author if the article has played Catherine? Given it has an actual transgendered character and would be much more interesting of a discussion than debating if a character who outright denies being one.
It's hard to draw much meaning out of the rambling sentence he posted, but I think I get it. We live in a culture of "Respect everyone's views except if you believe THAT." There is a sort of infuriating double standard, even if the intentions are good.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Teddie is like a child. The very first things he sees are all sexually charged - Yukiko wanting to score with boys, Kanji's bath house, Rise's strip club. He acts the way he does because he sees the other extreme from sexual repression all around him.
Yes and unfortunately she uses that as a shield against people pointing out that she is an awful awful writer this piece included.
Different strikes for different folks. It's a little weird the group immediately takes to referring to Naoto as female. Yosuke can't stand her one minute and then he's calling her cute the next? In all fairness, I could see how she felt that big shift was off-putting from where she stands.
Well said, Levito.
Teddie's not just like a child. For all intents and purposes he is a child. Remember he was a being that was originally a shadow. I wouldn't be surprised if he's three years old or less.
BRocknRolla
Member
I've always been surprised at people's negative reaction to Kanji. I wonder is people are looking for some kind of "strong," "self-assured" gay character. I just don't think Kanji was ever supposed to be that character. He had trouble coming to terms with that part of himself and never totally embraces it, only gets to the point of understanding that his sexuality is complicated and he doesn't have it all figured out, and that this is ok. He lives in a world where people, including himself, aren't entirely open and welcoming to such a conclusion and as such he doesn't suddenly proclaim himself to be gay. Maybe people wanted a happier, more concrete ending for him, but that doesn't make him somehow antigay.
Yoske comes off as a total dick, entirely uncouth with the situation. I don't think anyone is supposed to identify with his idiocy. He's a flawed character, and though one would want him to be cool about Kanji coming to terms with his sexuality, he's not that kind of guy. Just like Kanji isn't some kind of paragon to the gay community.
Persona 4 is great because of how complex these characters are. It isn't just, "I faced my fears and now I can admit I'm gay!" its more complicated, just as it isn't, "I admit that I like being something of an exhibitionist and sex symbol!" for Rise. They aren't heroes, they're flawed people. Maybe some people didn't want that.
Yoske comes off as a total dick, entirely uncouth with the situation. I don't think anyone is supposed to identify with his idiocy. He's a flawed character, and though one would want him to be cool about Kanji coming to terms with his sexuality, he's not that kind of guy. Just like Kanji isn't some kind of paragon to the gay community.
Persona 4 is great because of how complex these characters are. It isn't just, "I faced my fears and now I can admit I'm gay!" its more complicated, just as it isn't, "I admit that I like being something of an exhibitionist and sex symbol!" for Rise. They aren't heroes, they're flawed people. Maybe some people didn't want that.
chicagocubsfan
Member
Oh yeah forgot about that lol. One of the funniest scenes in the anime too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAH-T405phI&t=6m40s
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Did you miss the part when I said that at some point in the game Chie even chided on Yosuke on how he treated Kanji?
Again, I feel the kind of bolded reasoning above is weird because it feels like you just want to have him to be gay just because you want to have a gay person in the group just because. So what, now all games need to have a gay option so that they can escape your disappointment?
And hey, even after the group defeated his dungeon and seeing his insecurity blown wide open in front of everyone, he still gets to hang around the group and they treated him like a great friend. If they treated him like shit afterwards then sure, that's a slap in the face.
DimmuBurgerKing
Member
Wish I never even clicked the link, now. This writer is reaching.
Why? She's a girl.
we.are.the.armada
Member
This.
Like we talked about before Levito, these are very good counter points to the article. Not so sure about the last one, but I understand where you're coming from.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
This articles make appreciate Patrick Klepeck way more. At least he seems to give a game a chance even if there is material that he doesn't agree with it.
demosthenes
Member
I wanted to beat the shit out of Youske during the camping scene. But then I remembered that they're teenagers and slightly understood but still wanted to punch him in the face.
But the whole town knows she's a girl by the time of her rescue. Her male persona was just a guise. It's only natural.
Hot Coldman
Banned
His Social Link does offer that opportunity, sorta
Ghost_Protocol
Member
After reading the article again to make sure I didn't miss anything......I'm fully prepared to say the author completely and utterly misread both Kanji and Naoto (and Persona 4 generally on some level) by an embarrassingly large margin. The topic at hand obviously resonates on a personal level with the author, but I'm afraid her perspective is blinding the reality of the game.
Also, starting some Persona 4 sheeet while Jeff Gerstmann and Vinny Caravella are in the building takes some nerves of steel. I fully expect to hear something about this on the next bombcast.
Teddy transcended all notions of sex and gender and became a god. You need to finish the game. As for the MC, of course he's not gay.
Also, starting some Persona 4 sheeet while Jeff Gerstmann and Vinny Caravella are in the building takes some nerves of steel. I fully expect to hear something about this on the next bombcast.
Teddy transcended all notions of sex and gender and became a god. You need to finish the game. As for the MC, of course he's not gay.
Really? You go after the game that has the balls to bring up homosexuality, period. But none of the games that act like it doesn't even exist?
Also, it never states that Kanji is straight. He just says that he feels that way because he hates being rejected. Hell, when you ask him about your costumes in Golden, he will sometimes hit on your character and then quickly realize what he's doing.
He's a teenager. It's like saying Yosuke is pushing homophobia. Like he's not just portraying a realistic teenager.
Also, it never states that Kanji is straight. He just says that he feels that way because he hates being rejected. Hell, when you ask him about your costumes in Golden, he will sometimes hit on your character and then quickly realize what he's doing.
He's a teenager. It's like saying Yosuke is pushing homophobia. Like he's not just portraying a realistic teenager.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
*Shrugs*
The game never pretended he's a shining beacon of moral paragon. And the way he acted, despite the apparent unPCness, was normal considering he's not really... that shining beacon. Like I said, it's just how usually a normal still growing teenager would act if they were thrown into that kind of situation. I doubt Yosuke acted the way he did due to malicious intentions--just a lack of understanding and simple childishness.
And yeah, sometimes I wanted to punch him on the face too (especially when he forced the MC to work with him for one week straight WTF Yosuke???)
And they just found out. They're completely convinced she's a boy and are accustomed to referring to her as such and then... they just switch.
It's a little jarring. If we're gonna praise the believability of the characters we can't be selective. Even when accounting for suspension of disbelief (which I do). I'm not saying you have to agree, but it's not really an outlandish point to make on the authors part.
The last one? You mean the bit about Naoto or the developers being Anti-gay?
GotchaForce
Member
I felt like Kanji being perceived as gay was the target of jokes sometimes. I don't blame anyone for feeling uncomfortable about that.
demosthenes
Member
lol, at kanji/naoto being gay or trans. P4's writers aren't nearly interesting or thoughtful enough to handle something like in a respectful manner. P4 is a silly harem-simulator, and kanji's main role in it is the same as every other male party member: to compliment you, the player, and tell you how awesome you are and how much he looks up to you.
I heard they still have those shitty gay jokes in P4's fighting game sequel. True/false?
I heard they still have those shitty gay jokes in P4's fighting game sequel. True/false?
Haven't read the article, but still, as I have played the game, in my POV the game handled well those points of the story. Kinda weird that some people think like this. Then again, I'm not homosexual nor transgender, so I can't comment with their point of view.
Maybe if a gay friend of mine had actually listened to me and played the game, he could have given me his impressions... Oh, well, that's a story for another time.
Still, people still misunderstand Yosuke as a character with his actions and wathnot, for example, so it's not surprising to see that people only see what they want to see.
Maybe if a gay friend of mine had actually listened to me and played the game, he could have given me his impressions... Oh, well, that's a story for another time.
Still, people still misunderstand Yosuke as a character with his actions and wathnot, for example, so it's not surprising to see that people only see what they want to see.
You don't see a problem with being anti gay? Ok.
Classic case of acting as if freedom of expression somehow validates your expression.
This is probably an issue with the translation, and not nearly as jarring in the original Japanese. I'm guessing the translators had to compromise given they can't just insert new dialogue parts in there to justify or explain why they're suddenly using the other set of gender pronouns.
So that's the part where you wanted to beat the shit out of him? Not when he was sexist all the times before? His character is a growing teenager. He's supposed to have a ton of flaws and problems with his own insecurities. IT's the whole purpose of the game.
I mean it would certainly be ok from a "I'm a creator and I want to make and sell a game about this" stand point. Doesn't mean it isn't asshole-ish and awful, though.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I wanted to beat the shit out of Yosuke during
the scene where they decide whatever throw Namatame in the TV or not
The context of knowing where those scenes stand in Japanese culture and how they comment on it specifically are important. It's good you brought that up.