Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I think he is talking *in the context of the game-world*, not *in the context of real world*.
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Persona 4 Accused of Being Anti-Gay in Gamespot article
- Thread starter Levito
- Start date
I think he is talking *in the context of the game-world*, not *in the context of real world*.
I think expecting Japan to be at the forefront of LGBT representation is a bit like waiting for Hell to freeze over. While they're not outwardly bigoted towards homosexuality, it's also not as widely accepted as Yaoi manga would have you believed.
At the same time, I don't mind that she highlights the issue. Because some of the things that are in the game are kind of offensive. It doesn't matter that Kanji ends up being straight in the end but the accusation that a gay guy will rape the other characters is fucking tasteless.
I don't think she wrote the article to be sensationalist but rather from her POV as a transgender who's often being told by society that her sexuality is not acceptable. Unfortunately, she's also dealing with a popular entertainment created by Japanese culture, where 9 out of 10, a guy who looks like a girl or vice versa usually really is just a guy who happens to look like a girl or a girl who looks like a guy. He/she is not going to turn into gay/lesbian/transgender. Expecting that will just disappoint yourself.
At the end of the day, however, it's good that she highlights this so that Japanese people are more aware of the issue.
At the same time, I don't mind that she highlights the issue. Because some of the things that are in the game are kind of offensive. It doesn't matter that Kanji ends up being straight in the end but the accusation that a gay guy will rape the other characters is fucking tasteless.
I don't think she wrote the article to be sensationalist but rather from her POV as a transgender who's often being told by society that her sexuality is not acceptable. Unfortunately, she's also dealing with a popular entertainment created by Japanese culture, where 9 out of 10, a guy who looks like a girl or vice versa usually really is just a guy who happens to look like a girl or a girl who looks like a guy. He/she is not going to turn into gay/lesbian/transgender. Expecting that will just disappoint yourself.
At the end of the day, however, it's good that she highlights this so that Japanese people are more aware of the issue.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
The concept of "trap" or "reverse-trap" is hardly Anime exclusive. Hell, is hardly eastern exclusive.
While I wouldn't say its anti-gay, this subject has been on my mind since I just got past those parts with Kanji last week. While I haven't finished it yet(just got Rise) from what I've read/seen on the internet they make Kanji straight? Its shame since he would have been an interesting gay character.
I can see where people would think that she is Transgendered, what with her whole dungeon motif being a super secret laboratory where they perform experiments, more specifically with the changing of someone's gender.
But it's more of a commentary on Japan's workforce more than anything else.
I think this is a shitty excuse and not the case.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Geezz man.
I'll say it again.
Just because Yosuke says/does stuff A does not mean the game condones/agrees to stuff A.
Goddamn it even Chie chided him on how he treated Kanji at some point of the game.
Maybe *shrugs*
Ah well, I'll let him/her answer for him/herself.
buddha0991
Member
No, you just dont see what he ends up being, except that he still likes Naoto. Atlus themselves stated that it was ambiguous and up to the player. I assumed it was because Kanji is not his sexuality, and it does not matter if he is gay, straight, bi, asexual, or anything in between or nothing at all, you accept kanji for kanji, not his sexual preference, but because he is awesome.
Also Kanji and Yosuke go shopping together at a time in the game and Yosuke remarks about how he is good at stacking things and if he would like a job at Junes. He talks about the future with him and your character at the beach. He even tells him at one point to not worry about things and that he belongs with them. He is a jerk, to everyone, not just Kanji, he teases everyone, but he accepts them all. But it is in his nature to tease everyone, and he DOES tease the whole team, not just Kanji. But He would die to protect any of them.
Also Kanji and Yosuke go shopping together at a time in the game and Yosuke remarks about how he is good at stacking things and if he would like a job at Junes. He talks about the future with him and your character at the beach. He even tells him at one point to not worry about things and that he belongs with them. He is a jerk, to everyone, not just Kanji, he teases everyone, but he accepts them all. But it is in his nature to tease everyone, and he DOES tease the whole team, not just Kanji. But He would die to protect any of them.
Yes, like many others have said. This seems to be grasping at straws that just aren't there. Tomboys exist, sexism exists, therefore, you can't immediately jump to it as a transgender issue.
A tomboy doesn't have to be a girl trying to be a boy, and implying that is sexist.
True, that makes sense as well.
Dont know about the name thing though her butler in the social link calls her Naoto.
Now IIRC (this thread makes me want to replay this game...everything is a little foggy), Naoto didnt just admired cool detective novel men, she wanted to be one. She had the clothes, attitude, and IQ but she stated that she would never be able to be the right gender for the ideal detective. Females being looked downed upon was an additional downside that she also stated in one of her monologues if not the very same monologue.
She was looked down upon for being a child in the police/detective force and she knew being seen as a female would be another negative to her. This loops back to wanting to be the ideal novel detective man.
No, she didn't hate being a female but she would be discriminated against if her fellow detectives knew she was a female. She was already getting enough heat for being a child/kid. It's a very real problem in Japan. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
DimmuBurgerKing
Member
Naoto isn't transgendered. I thought that was made pretty clear, but...
And I'll tell you to stop telling me what I think is tasteless or not tasteless.
If you are not a gay man and has never experienced bigotry due to your sexuality then you have no idea how damaging accusation like that for gay guys in general.
It doesn't matter that Chie chided him about it. The whole thing was still tasteless and the fact that it was treated as if it's a joke is disgusting.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Tropes don't have to be exclusive to a medium to be considered tropes of that medium.
google "6th Ranger"
Actually, I do. Naoto isn't transgendered, so yes it would be kind of rude to just keep calling her a boy after she just came to grips with her Shadow and no longer refer to herself as one.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
That's a pretty superficial way of seeing a character driven narrative.
I don't think that Yosuke was supposed to be likeable in that part. I don't think that Yosuke was suppose to be likeable in many parts of the game.
Also: her decision to keep being dressed in boyish clothes for the rest of the game, never dropping her masculine mannerisms and continuously showing discomfort whenever something involving her body comes up. (unless your self-insert wants to bone her, of course)
Hint, everyone is not living in the context of your world so maybe tone down on the dickish replies. We are discussing the game here quite obviously, not LBGT community. If Naoto said in game Hey everyone I identify as a boy youd have a point. She didnt, so you dont.
Agreed. This is why the author's insistence of referring to Naoto as male bothers me.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
But you are saying (or at least, implying) that the game makers are trying to make a point that, "Hey! Folks! Look at this! Gay man will rape other men if they are sleeping in the same tent!"
That camping scene--and the way Yosuke acts in the game in general--serve nothing more than just devices to highlight how immature and childish Yosuke really is, and not because the game producers are trying to say something about gay people in general.
Delusibeta
Banned
tl;dr edition: bad article that at best had no research done and at worst is deliberately trolling for hits, and in either case therefore should be ignored.
There are some dickish replies in here, but none are mine.
I think you're projecting a bit. He's a character in a story, not an attack on your sexuality. The story made it perfectly clear that Yosouke is immature, and that his jokes aren't suppose to be reflected. It's why his title is Captain Ressentiment after all.
I'm transgendered, and I've experienced bigotry before, but I don't find Naoto or Yosouke tasteless because I understand the story isn't written that way.
exactly! well said.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Naoto acts like a boy not because she is confused about her sexuality so putting the way she acts in the game as a transgender issue is really a miss.
Basically my point.
Basically my point.
NoirVisage
Banned
This word.. THIS WORD.. thats like a reflex response for some people, when you have an opinion that isn't along certain lines..i hear it more from straight women oddly enough.
true exchange
she says: Watch this video of a male in tight leotards dancing to Single Women!! Its SOOOOOO good!!
He says: Uhhh.. No.
She says: UGH homophobe -__-
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
And that's the reason of why is way more weird that you minimize it as just a "harem troope" when is as old as Greek mythology.
Calling someones comments clueless with no real attempt to make a case or points is dickish. Instead explain to us why you think the group should continue calling Naoto a boy.
we.are.the.armada
Member
Yeah, I know right
I'm a little foggy, but watching the scene now."It's so lonely... I don't wanna be alone!"
"These childish gestures are no mere affectation... they're the truth."
"You're a child in their eyes."
"At your core, you admire the sort of strong and cool men who populate detective fiction. But in trying to emulate them, you must know that in truth, you're nothing of the sort - you're a child. There's no avoiding first principles... admit that you're a child, and admit that there's nothing you can do about it. Now then! Our analysis is complete. Let us begin the body alteration procedure."
I think that this body alteration process is covering both adult and male transformation. Or perhaps in Naoto's head, those two things are one in the same? I'm not sure if Naoto really wants to be a man or if it's like the Shadow says, "Yet here you are, mimicking those same men. What exactly are you trying to justify?" - Like how a kid becomes a bully because he was bullied.
Whaaaaa?
buddha0991
Member
Yosuke always pokes at his friends buttons. I feel like everything past the camping trip is just him teasing Kanji. He acted very polite to Kanji, Rise and Naoto before they all became friends, then he starts teasing them and being a jerk, it's just who he is.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Overly sensitive political correctness, hahaha.
Ehh, I don't see what any of that has to to do with her embracing the fact that she's female. It's not like that would suddenly mean she has to stop wearing boyish clothes and using masculine mannerisms - especially since she's so used to it at this point.
As for her discomfort involving her body...would you really expect confronting her shadow to immediately get rid of the self-consciousness she obviously has about her body?
that is not at all in any way what he said or implied.
(Not to pull a laughing banana and put words Replicant's mouth here, but just in case he doesn't respond, I gotta call this nonsense out)
editV speak of the devil, lol
Laughing Banana said:
He's still one of the protagonists of the story and the game basically says that hey, it's okay to make joke about gay guys raping other guys as long as you consider him your friend. No, it's not okay. It's cringe-worthy. And I think I'm starting to understand why the author has reservation about Kanji's reversal turn towards the end.
Sophia said:
You keep telling yourself that. But don't come back and wonder years from now as to why game hasn't made a progress when it comes to minority portrayal. We just keep accepting crumbs and make up excuses as to why things can't be equal. All in the name of defending your fave's game. It's the same thing that happened when I pointed out why RE hasn't made a progress when it comes to minority representation. All I hear is excuses about how it's a game and not a portrayal of reality.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Spend some time in OT Gaf.
So, to you, everything a protagonist in a story says is supposed to be an actual reflection of the author's intentions or thoughts?
I really don't think you should be putting words in other people's mouth. Particularly in regards to what I do and don't think. =p
And I would think the fact that people are discussing it and viewpoints are all over the scale even in this very thread as proof as progress in regards to minority portrayals.
Yeah, I know right
"It's so lonely... I don't wanna be alone!"
"These childish gestures are no mere affectation... they're the truth."
"You're a child in their eyes."
"At your core, you admire the sort of strong and cool men who populate detective fiction. But in trying to emulate them, you must know that in truth, you're nothing of the sort - you're a child. There's no avoiding first principles... admit that you're a child, and admit that there's nothing you can do about it. Now then! Our analysis is complete. Let us begin the body alteration procedure."
I think that this body alteration process is covering both adult and male transformation. Or perhaps in Naoto's head, those two things are one in the same? I'm not sure if Naoto really wants to be a man or if it's like the Shadow says, "Yet here you are, mimicking those same men. What exactly are you trying to justify?" - Like how a kid becomes a bully because he was bullied.
I think what i typed all all came from what naoto says after the boss battle.
i interpret the shadows in persona 4 not just manifestations of denials and insecurities but
all of that exaggerated. The stuff the victims say after the boss battle is them correcting it and then accepting it.
when an author is only ever capable of bringing up homosexuality to make fun of it, continuously, in different contexts, I'd say one might have a point calling their portrayal of homosexuality a tad problematic.
Not necessarily. But what is included in the game will be seen by many people and with those, they'll get whatever the game is telling them. And the game was telling them that "Ew, I don't want near a gay guy because he may rape me" and the circle just perpetuating on and on. What do you think is the base of homophobia? It's straight guys afraid that gay guys might make a move on them.
Well, you're the one who brought up "I'm transgender and I'm not offended about this" as if it's a cool thing. And how is it a progress when half of the thread is basically defending the game, making fun of the author by calling her "delusional", "bring her bias", or "Only wrote it to be sensationalist" and never once make an attempt at understanding why she may have come from?
I don't think the game is entirely bad or made to offend but to actually deny that there are some tasteless choices made in the representation of minority in it? Sorry, I'm not willing to make that jump.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I'll just have to disagree with the way you two perceives the game's intentions then.
we.are.the.armada
Member
I did have some problems with Persona 4's handling of Kanji and Naoto (and I also thought that the scenes with the Shadow Naoto (which supposedly reveal the character's innermost desires, if I'm remembering right) and the eventual explanation rang false); I would have preferred that Kanji actually be gay instead of seeing them back away from that, that Kanji's issues with his masculinity were handled better, that Naoto's gender issues to actually be treated with seriousness rather than what it was (and worse for me, that they hinted at seriousness and then failed to follow through), and that it not include some of the more mildly annoying stuff she pointed out.
I think that these problems are easily overlooked, though, in that the problems are in the subtext and the implications of these choices, and there's relatively little (Yosuke, aside) overtly problematic stuff. I don't think the game is anti-gay - I think that implies a level of mens rea that I don't think exists here - but it could certainly have been better.
I think that these problems are easily overlooked, though, in that the problems are in the subtext and the implications of these choices, and there's relatively little (Yosuke, aside) overtly problematic stuff. I don't think the game is anti-gay - I think that implies a level of mens rea that I don't think exists here - but it could certainly have been better.
buddha0991
Member
For people who think this series is homophobic, I suggest looking up Persona 2 at least.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Wah?
Is like saying that Archie Bunker was supposed to be taken seriously because he was the Dad of the show.
XANDER CAGE
Member
The only issue I had with Persona 4 was its clumsy handling of (character spoiler)
- the representation (character spoiler)
Any grievances I had with that particular topic were addressed admirably in Catherine, however.
transexuality
of Naoto's repressed desire to be male as a spooky, scary, hellish scientific anomaly was a bit much, but they at least wrote themselves out of that. Naoto doesn't have dysphoria, her whole deal is that she thinks she needs to be male to be taken seriously. Which, in its own way, is still an interesting character arc.
Any grievances I had with that particular topic were addressed admirably in Catherine, however.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
As a gay guy, I was never bothered in any way by Persona 4, Yosuke, or... anything?
I realized, even with English localization and naturalization of tone, it's about a bunch of Japanese high school students, in modern Japanese pop culture?
I'm not sure every piece of fiction has to be constructed like an afterschool special in order to "educate".
I realized, even with English localization and naturalization of tone, it's about a bunch of Japanese high school students, in modern Japanese pop culture?
I'm not sure every piece of fiction has to be constructed like an afterschool special in order to "educate".
You also don't need a game to forcefully deal with the issue when it wasn't the intention of the writer. They are free to develop characters however they wish. People misinterpreting the characters and WANTING them to be part of a certain minority isn't really any better.
I mean it's also kind of sexist to say Naoto HAS to act like a man and must commit to the gender she was pretending to be, even though her purpose for being a man had little to do with sexuality, and was essentially entirely employment based.
Precisely.