Fighting Games Weekly | March 4-10 | The Empire Strikes Black

JeTmAn81 said:
The Zangief thing doesn't make sense to me since I'm not a Street Fighter player and throws are an entirely different animal in that game.

My question was more about the thinking behind the decision to structure Wesker's grab options in that way. It's obviously very intentional, but I don't know much about fighting game design so it's not immediately apparent to me why someone would make that choice. The other thing is that if Wesker's command grab was his regular grab, it could be teched, so that would actually make him weaker with grabs.
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When a character has a command grab, you want there to be some sort of incentive to USE that grab. Giving someone a command grab and intentionally making it shitty isn't good design or balance. Regular grabs should always come with less incentive to use them in comparison to command grabs.

Making Wesker's command grab into his normal one would be a fucking disaster of an idea.
 
Nyoro SF said:
Play any fighting game long enough and you'll see that balance is sometimes based on developer favoritism.
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Akira in VF5FS comes to mind.

Oh hey, speaking of which, VF5FS is available for $5 on XBL today until the 11th. ;)

OK I'm done I promise.

haha yeah right

Lost Fragment said:
Why the fuck does Fei Long have a command grab in SF4? Just fucking why?
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Fei's command grab is kinda gimmicky. It has really slow startup and can be interrupted pretty easily. You only really see people use it when they've trained the hell out of their opponents, and even then it's usually the EX version, which isn't much better and basically means sacrificing an EX chickenwing, EX flame kick, EX rekka or FADC flame kick, all of which have way more utility.
 
Lost Fragment said:
Why the fuck does Fei Long have a command grab in SF4? Just fucking why?
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It's pretty situational though. I believe his command grab is like 13 or 14 frames start up so if you're doing a crouch tech, you'll most likely hit them out of it. Most Fei players tend to be rather predictable though (the ones I've played), they usually just do standing jab into command grab.
 
soakrates said:
Fei's command grab is kinda gimmicky. It has really slow startup and can be interrupted pretty easily. You only really see people use it when they've trained the hell out of their opponents.
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You can't use it like Gief or Hawk SPDs but slow startup hardly makes it gimmicky.

People don't use it super frequently because they don't really need to and it's mega punishable if it gets scouted.
 
Lost Fragment said:
You can't use it like Gief or Hawk SPDs but slow startup hardly makes it gimmicky.

People don't use it super frequently because they don't really need to and it's mega punishable if it gets scouted.
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Exactly. It's really not worth the risk most of the time considering it has extremely slow startup and gets punished big-time if it misses, which is often considering it also has pretty shitty range. The EX version is a little better because it can work as a tick throw, but not enough to justify using a bunch of meter on EX command grabs when Fei Long has way better uses for it.
 
soakrates said:
Exactly. It's really not worth the risk most of the time considering it has extremely slow startup and gets punished big-time if it misses, which is often considering it also has pretty shitty range. The EX version is a little better because it can work as a tick throw, but not enough to justify using a bunch of meter on EX command grabs when Fei Long has way better uses for it.
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It may not be great, but it's very effective since you can special cancel it from a jab which will get you the command grab as long as your opponent isn't holding up or threw out a move with invincibility. Fei players have gotten pretty good mileage out of it from that method. Hell, he could do st. fierce, flame kick, FADC, Ultra(do it early for 3 hits which is max damage) from the command throw but no Fei players never use it that way.
 
Rice-Eater said:
It may not be great, but it's very effective since you can special cancel it from a jab which will get you the command grab as long as your opponent isn't holding up or threw out a move with invincibility. Fei players have gotten pretty good mileage out of it from that method. Hell, he could do st. fierce, flame kick, FADC, Ultra(do it early for 3 hits which is max damage) from the command throw but no Fei players never use it that way.
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Yeah, when I played SF4 I liked to do cr.lp xx ex tenshin every so often, but only if I had a lot of meter to work with or if they were one or two combos away from being KOed. Truth be told, it was probably better pre-AE because Fei didn't need to use meter to make chickenwing invincible on startup. But even then it was used pretty sparingly from what I recall.
 
soakrates said:
Exactly. It's really not worth the risk most of the time considering it has extremely slow startup and gets punished big-time if it misses, which is often considering it also has pretty shitty range. The EX version is a little better because it can work as a tick throw, but not enough to justify using a bunch of meter on EX command grabs when Fei Long has way better uses for it.
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Never said it was super great, but it's a case of "He already has so many tools, why does he need this shit too?" Plus Fei is a pretty random character to give a command grab to begin with. Though, the way you talk makes it seem like people never use it, which isn't true. It's not something Fei players use constantly, but it still gets used pretty often.

I'm more of a Chun guy these days, but I put a shitload of time in with Makoto in the past, so I'm pretty familiar with slow-ass command grabs with very little range. In that sense, there's like 0 difference between her command grab and Fei's. Though yes, Makoto can convert a lot more damage/positioning than Fei can with his in general, so they are pretty different from a risk/reward standpoint. But still, Fei's command grab is definitely not a non-factor in his game. Fei having a command grab is pretty stupid.

edit: Now that I think about it, Makoto would still be pretty decent even if she didn't have a command grab, heh. They'd have to buff her normal throw range considerably or something though.
 
PAX East schedule is up. You know what that means!

World of Capcom

Moderator Francis Mao (CAPCOM) leads a panel of Capcom’s producers and product managers to share the latest details on all the upcoming Capcom games such as Remember Me, Lost Planet 3, Resident Evil Revelations, Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen, two NEW product announcements, and more! Up to 1,000 fans will walk away with a free gift, so this is a panel you definitely do not want to miss!
Panelists:

TBA [Capcom]

Phoenix Theatre
Friday 3/22 12:00PM - 1:00PM

The Fighting Game Community: From A Niche Genre to a Worldwide Phenomenon

As the growth in competitive gaming and eSports rises, one community is primed and ready for the spotlight: the fighting game community. Influenced largely by the success of games like Street Fighter 4 and Marvel vs. Capcom 3, the fighting game community has grown into a cottage industry with members planning and organizing their own events, content producers streaming live and on-demand footage and prominent members getting hired by major developers based on their accomplishments in the community.

Join community leaders for a discussion about the current state of the FGC and its major events and projects, as well as the what the future may hold for the growth of the community.
Panelists:

Ryan Gutierrez [CEO, Cross Counter TV], Mark Julio [Sponsorship and Product Manager, Mad Catz], James Chen [Commentator, UltraChenTV], Kelly Nylander [Commentator]

Arachnid Theatre
Saturday 3/23 5:00PM - 6:00PM

How to Build an Arcade Stick 201: Qs, As, and Advanced Stuff

Last year Disorganization XIII gave you a beginner’s run-down on how to build an arcade stick. This year, we answer all every questions we didn’t have time to get to. Join Shoryuken.com editor Angelo D’Argenio (MyLifeIsAnRPG) and his team of stick making misfits as they talk about soldering, part swapping, dual-modding, multi-meters, stickless joysticks, and anything else you want to know about the glamorous world of making your own video game controllers. Come with questions and show off your own joystick projects! (A brief recap of the basics from last year will be given before the Q and A session.)
Panelists:

Angelo D’Argenio [President/Editor/Editor, DisorganizationXIII/Shoryuken.com/Cheat Code Central], Joel Whit Davis [Senior Member/CEO, DisorganizationXIII/Ember Games], Daniel Skippy Cheifer [Senior Member/Doctoral Candidate, DisorganizationXIII/Syracuse University], Michael Keiderling [Senior Member/Doctoral Candidate, DisorganizationXIII/Rutgers University], Adam Koshi Shang [Junior Member/OEM Parts Specialist, DisorganizationXIII], Skip Smith [Independant Stick Creator], Brian Hsu [Junior Member/Independent Stick Maker, DisorganizationXIII]

Arachnid Theatre
Saturday 3/23 9:30PM - 10:30PM

Also listed are tournaments, etc. for many games.
 
The fact that we have to ask/confirm who she is is pretty indicative that she probably doesn't belong there.
 
Man, even knowing the list of panelists wouldn't matter, now that we know Ono can be pimped out to announce things like Deep Down.
 
Karsticles said:
Man, even knowing the list of panelists wouldn't matter, now that we know Ono can be pimped out to announce things like Deep Down.
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This is a sad realization.

But for what it's worth, Ono and his image are probably the best thing Capcom has to try and regain gamers' trust and rebuild Capcom's public perception. Even if you don't agree with development choices, it's so hard to hate the dude.
 
enzo_gt said:
This is a sad realization.

But for what it's worth, Ono and his image are probably the best thing Capcom has to try and regain gamers' trust and rebuild Capcom's public perception. Even if you don't agree with development choices, it's so hard to hate the dude.
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I think what I personally (and I'm sure many others) love most about Ono is how sincere he seems to be. He seems so vibrant and full of energy after so many years at that company and what he's gone through regarding his illness from a while ago, and yet he is just always full of energy and upbeat. He may troll, yeah, but that just adds to the personality. I can't say you'd find a lot of other people in this industry with that childlike enthusiasm that Ono has.
 
enzo_gt said:
The fact that we have to ask/confirm who she is is pretty indicative that she probably doesn't belong there.
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Yeah... I've been to PAX in the past and even the panels that you think would be serious end up being pretty big jokes.

Will be attending that panel in particular for the lol factor and the huge inaccuracies that will inevitably result.
 
Smedwicks said:
I think what I personally (and I'm sure many others) love most about Ono is how sincere he seems to be. He seems so vibrant and full of energy after so many years at that company and what he's gone through regarding his illness from a while ago, and yet he is just always full of energy and upbeat. He may troll, yeah, but that just adds to the personality. I can't say you'd find a lot of other people in this industry with that childlike enthusiasm that Ono has.
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Yeah and he's pretty humble too. You hardly see developers apologize for poor decisions to try and save face but I thought Ono apologizing for what he did in AE was something special and honourable... as fucked up as it was that it had to come to that at the same time. And of course most of all, he's passionate about his work despite all the shit he has to put up with + overworking to the point of illness.

Nyoro SF said:
Yeah... I've been to PAX in the past and even the panels that you think would be serious end up being pretty big jokes.

Will be attending that panel in particular for the lol factor and the huge inaccuracies that will inevitably result.
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Are you going to the Capcom one?

We need people on-site to clear up any misconceptions that arise through social media for those of us at home.. which happens at every Capcom presser really.
 
enzo_gt said:
This is a sad realization.

But for what it's worth, Ono and his image are probably the best thing Capcom has to try and regain gamers' trust and rebuild Capcom's public perception. Even if you don't agree with development choices, it's so hard to hate the dude.
Click to expand...
Smedwicks said:
I think what I personally (and I'm sure many others) love most about Ono is how sincere he seems to be. He seems so vibrant and full of energy after so many years at that company and what he's gone through regarding his illness from a while ago, and yet he is just always full of energy and upbeat. He may troll, yeah, but that just adds to the personality. I can't say you'd find a lot of other people in this industry with that childlike enthusiasm that Ono has.
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Agree 100%
 
enzo_gt said:
This is a sad realization.

But for what it's worth, Ono and his image are probably the best thing Capcom has to try and regain gamers' trust and rebuild Capcom's public perception. Even if you don't agree with development choices, it's so hard to hate the dude.
Click to expand...
I don't hate Ono. Never have. Early on I just felt "ew don't let him near Marvel or Darkstalkers", but then I read the interview that came out after he was ill and gained respect for him. So now it's "He's a good guy
, but don't let him near Marvel or Darkstalkers
". I'm not sure how well loved he is out there after SFxT, but I still like him. He kind of reminds me of Miyamoto in terms of attitude - he just looks like someone who enjoys his life, and I can never hate that kind of person.

Ono doing better can only mean good things for us anyway, since it means a person who likes fighting games getting more pull in the company.
 
Nyoro SF said:
Yeah... I've been to PAX in the past and even the panels that you think would be serious end up being pretty big jokes.

Will be attending that panel in particular for the lol factor and the huge inaccuracies that will inevitably result.
Click to expand...

If you go and they allow questions, ask James Chen if he'll give a shoutout to NeoGAF. lol

enzo_gt said:
Yeah and he's pretty humble too. You hardly see developers apologize for poor decisions to try and save face but I thought Ono apologizing for what he did in AE was something special and honourable... as fucked up as it was that it had to come to that at the same time. And of course most of all, he's passionate about his work despite all the shit he has to put up with + overworking to the point of illness.
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Definitely. I would imagine in most cases, a developer apologizing for big goof-ups would almost be seen as a suicide in the sense that you would be noting that your product(s) are bad/messed up, yet he does it. Whether it's from being told to from the higher ups at Capcom or not, there's definitely a respect that comes from that. And the dude has been so dedicated in not only bringing back Street Fighter, but Darkstalkers too, it's hard to try and discredit Ono, I'd say.
 
Lost Fragment said:
Never said it was super great, but it's a case of "He already has so many tools, why does he need this shit too?" Plus Fei is a pretty random character to give a command grab to begin with. Though, the way you talk makes it seem like people never use it, which isn't true. It's not something Fei players use constantly, but it still gets used pretty often.

I'm more of a Chun guy these days, but I put a shitload of time in with Makoto in the past, so I know all about the pros and cons when it comes to slow-ass command grabs with very little range. In that sense, there's almost 0 difference between her command grab and Fei's. Though yes, Makoto can convert a lot more damage/positioning than Fei can with his in general, so they are pretty different from a risk/reward standpoint. But still, Fei's command grab is definitely not a non-factor in his game. Fei having a command grab is pretty stupid.
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I never said it was a non-factor, nor did I say it never gets used. But it's not something you need to be extremely worried about when you play against Fei. Something to keep in the back of your head, yes, but it's a pretty situational tool and as long as you don't turtle up too much, it isn't that big of a threat. For the record, I also think he doesn't really need it.

Makoto's command grab is nearly twice as fast as Fei's and the EX version has super armor. Those two things alone grant her way more opportunities to land it, plus Makoto generally plays right in the opponent's face, whereas Fei is primarily a footsie character who spends most of the time at rekka range. There's no real comparison there.
 
enzo_gt said:
Yeah and he's pretty humble too. You hardly see developers apologize for poor decisions to try and save face but I thought Ono apologizing for what he did in AE was something special and honourable... as fucked up as it was that it had to come to that at the same time. And of course most of all, he's passionate about his work despite all the shit he has to put up with + overworking to the point of illness.


Are you going to the Capcom one?

We need people on-site to clear up any misconceptions that arise through social media for those of us at home.. which happens at every Capcom presser really.
Click to expand...

I will be going to the Capcom one. However I am certain a lot of people will be there... so you'll be able to read a shit ton of articles if Darkstalkers or Street Fighter break loose.
 
M:TG devs have had to apoligize for a lot of things over the years. Hasn't hurt the game one bit. Admitting mistakes is a good thing - you want to be open/honest as much as you can with the fanbase and let them know they're heard.
 
soakrates said:
I never said it was a non-factor, nor did I say it never gets used. But it's not something you need to be extremely worried about when you play against Fei. Something to keep in the back of your head, yes, but it's a pretty situational tool and as long as you don't turtle up too much, it isn't that big of a threat. For the record, I also think he doesn't really need it.

Makoto's command grab is nearly twice as fast as Fei's and the EX version has super armor. Those two things alone grant her way more opportunities to land it, plus Makoto generally plays right in the opponent's face, whereas Fei is primarily a footsie character who spends most of the time at rekka range. There's no real comparison there.
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You said it was a gimmick. Maybe we just have a different definition of what a "gimmick" is because when I think of a gimmick, I think of something that works once or twice but then it never works again because there's a clear counter to it.

EX karakusa is mostly only used as a reversal, and while lk karakusa is twice as fast Fei's command grab it barely matters. Once you get to a certain point of slowness, there would only be a big difference if if you could react to one and not the other. You're right that Makoto tends to spend more time in her opponent's face (her forward dash compared to Fei's also differentiates things), but when Fei has you in the corner then he does too, and if there's anything Fei's good at, it's pushing fools into the corner.
 
Lost Fragment said:
You said it was a gimmick. Maybe we just have a different definition of what a "gimmick" is because when I think of a gimmick, I think of something that works once or twice but then it stops working because there's a clear counter to it.

EX karakusa is mostly only used as a reversal, and while lk karakusa is twice as fast Fei's command grab it barely matters. Once you get to a certain point of slowness, there would only be a big difference if if you could react to one and not the other. You're right that Makoto tends to spend more time in her opponent's face (her forward dash compared to Fei's also differentiates things), but when Fei has you in the corner then he does too.
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It's not a gimmick, but it is kinda gimmicky (my words) in the sense that there are few real setups for it and that it does get a significant boost from character ignorance. And though it is possible to react to Fei's command grab, often you don't need to, because it's slow enough to get stuffed by crouch techs or other low pokes unless they cancel a jab into the ex version. And that'll only work if the opponent blocks the jab. If it hits, the command grab misses entirely and the opponent gets a free punish.

Fei does spend a lot of time up close when he has you in the corner, but a smart Fei also wants to keep you there. Using command grab in this situation gives up corner pressure for little more than a BnB in most cases. Like I mentioned earlier, it's not a bad option if you can end the round in one or two more combos, but most of the time it's just not that great.
 
TBH I have a hard time believing someone who is absolutely in love with Darkstalkers and has been pushing for it internally for years would fuck it up just based upon how he treated Street Fighter IV. He may even be a bigger fan of DS than he is SF, in which case applying his treatment of SF, which he may be a bit less knowledgeable of, to DS might be a bit of a stretch.

It's all maybes, yeah, but I don't see him compromising important stuff like the speed.
 
soakrates said:
It's not a gimmick, but it is kinda gimmicky (my words) in the sense that there are few real setups for it and that it does get a significant boost from character ignorance. And though it is possible to react to Fei's command grab, often you don't need to, because it's slow enough to get stuffed by crouch techs or other low pokes unless they cancel a jab into the ex version. And that'll only work if the opponent blocks the jab. If it hits, the command grab misses entirely and the opponent gets a free punish.

Fei does spend a lot of time up close when he has you in the corner, but a smart Fei also wants to keep you there. Using command grab in this situation gives up corner pressure for little more than a BnB in most cases. Like I mentioned earlier, it's not a bad option if you can end the round in one or two more combos, but most of the time it's just not that great.
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Reacting to 14 frames on the fly is practically impossible. You can react to jab into command grab, though it's still pretty tough.

And right, having a slow command grab means it can easily get stuffed by crouch techs and whatnot. That's why Fei players tend to not use it unless it's cancelled from jab or as a meaty. Same shit with Makoto.
 
enzo_gt said:
PAX East schedule is up. You know what that means!

World of Capcom

Moderator Francis Mao (CAPCOM) leads a panel of Capcom’s producers and product managers to share the latest details on all the upcoming Capcom games such as Remember Me, Lost Planet 3, Resident Evil Revelations, Dragon’s Dogma: Dark Arisen, two NEW product announcements, and more! Up to 1,000 fans will walk away with a free gift, so this is a panel you definitely do not want to miss!
Panelists:

TBA [Capcom]

Phoenix Theatre
Friday 3/22 12:00PM - 1:00PM
Click to expand...

Argh. My flight gets in that morning. Going to be very close to try to make that panel. Might need to reschedule my flight. I assume the line for it will be huge? (Never been to PAX before.)
 
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