bender
What time is it?
I dont play fighting games (mostly I'm terrible at it) but the only I really played was....
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
bender
What time is it?
NeverYouMind
Member
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
And what combat sport is that?
NeverYouMind
Member
Could be anything from kickboxing to fencing. It depends on the context.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
It's fighting. Cause Morrigan from Darkstalkers sure as hell doesn't do anything that resembles a combat sport. It doesn't have to be based on one. It simply has to be fighting.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
There are characters in fighting games dont use any martial arts or any hand to hand combat, they just straight up use magic.
NeverYouMind
Member
It's still a bout between two contestants however romanticized with hit points being reduced being the deciding factor of who won.
True and they are the furthest thing from the origins of the genre. Anime really rotted brains.
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
??? Magic user in fighting game has a been a thing in fighting games since forever.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
So a series like Def Jam doesn't count either?
NeverYouMind
Member
There was martial arts and mythological mysticism. But there sure as shit were no magical girls, characters with their own orbit of gravity, and other absurdities.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
NeverYouMind
Member
Def Jam counts as hit points being reduced to zero is a winning condition. The only stipulation is that the last hit point can only be taken by heavy damage attacks. It is not alone in that implementation.
P.S. In a wrestling game the default victory condition is pinning an opponent.
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NeverYouMind
Member
Are you assuming that this was an early fighting game? It was late to the party and anime as hell.
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kpopSuperstar
Member
It's because Smash is the biggest fighting game in the world. There is a subset of fighting game fans (like 12 of them) that can't handle it and cries and moans when they hear the name.
We have to call their moms when they show up around here to pull the plug on their PC and get them to bed.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
This is what you said, so clearly, two contestants is not mandatory and there can be more, unless Def Jam only counts as a fighting game when there are two people and I know you won't argue that.
NeverYouMind
Member
If there are more than two players it turns into a brawler like Smash but that is not the default.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Majority of Japanese fighting games were always anime, I mean in Street Fighters you had Bison which was a dictator with psychic powers.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
A brawl and a fight or synonyms, so stop with the semantics. You keep stipulating arbitrary condition when you started off with " a game where you reduce the opponent's health bar to 0". From that point on, it's been goalposts shifting by adding new conditions. Now a third player fighting using combat sports as a style (a condition you made up) and attempting to reduce the opponents' health bars turns the fighting game into a brawler and it no longer qualifies unless it's the default. Right.
Nintendo's Witch
Member
NeverYouMind
Member
True but anime back then was heavily inspired by a pop culture where martial arts and adaptations of romanticized plays based on historical events were prominent. When anime became mainstream you had some awful fads pop up with it leading to the aforementioned absurdities. (Also, you are using an animation from Alpha series which had an anime aesthetic.)Majority of Japanese fighting games were always anime, I mean in Street Fighters you had Bison which was a dictator with psychic powers.
Fact: Fighting genre started off as an imitation of combat sports.
Fact: Fighting game is designed for two players.
Fact: The objective of a fighting game is to drain your opponent's health to zero using attacks.
Fact: Smash is not a fighting game as verified by franchise director Sakurai.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
how is it not a fighting game
the amount of energy that gamers have wasted debating something so obviously true is ridiculous
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Yes, and we've been through this. You have a myriad of fighting games where no one fights with anything close to resembling a combat sport, so stop this. It's not a requirement.
Most of them. Def Jam that you admitted is a fighting game is much more designed for groups of players rather than just 1v1. Power Stone has more than 2 players but it also has a health bar.
No as you duly admitted above but played mental gymnastics when you got caught with your pants down trying to deny Smash and only Smash from being labeled as a fighting game. It went from:
To this:
Except there's one fatal flaw with your premise. Using this angle, I could easily argue knocking your opponent off stage in Smash is effectively reducing their health to 0. Def Jam follows a damn near identical formula where it's impossible to score a KO even if you beat up your opponent until their health bar is depleted. You have to hit them with a heavy attack/environmental hazard/heavy throw to finish them off. Smash instead has you knocking them off stage. In both games, it's effectively impossible to win with the traditional method and they have a way to "romanticize" dropping the opponent's health to 0, but Def Jam is a fighting game whereas Smash isn't,
Nice appeal to authority fallacy.
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NeverYouMind
Member
Power Stone is not a fighting game. Def Jam is played by two people by default. A different mode has to be selected for other players to join.
Do attacks in Smash drain health? No they do not. This is your diatribe:
Sakurai literally designed and directed every game in the franchise. There is no one more informed about its inner workings than he is.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
No, Def Jam isn't played by two players by default lmao. It's designed like classic THQ pro wrestling games. All player modes are every bit as part of the game as 1v1 or 2v2 or free for all. Is Smash by default also 1v1?
I mean, you said this:
Which is what you do in Power Stone.
Neither they do in Def Jam since you can reduce it to 0 and still not win. They make you more susceptible to KOs in Smash...exactly like they do in Def Jam, except one's meter goes up and the other one goes down. In neither cases can depleting the health bar lead to a win, so they're more similar to one another than they are to traditional fighters, but it seems that the fact that one meter increases while the other decreases while they effectively serves the same purpose is enough to confuse you.
Why would we need him to know the inner workings when we all played the games? The reason he said that is because he finds the definition of fighting games too limiting in reference to traditional fighting games. We can see he was correct since you've been making mental gymnastics redefining a fighting game every couple of posts.
I like how you keep shifting the goal posts and make mental gymnastics and outright contradict yourself and you just keep going. All of that in the spirit of denying Smash is a fighting game.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
1v1, the objective is to drain the entire health bar, not a fighting game. lol.
And with that, we can conclude that PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royal is a fighting game, but Smash Bros isn't.
Great job.
TwiztidElf
Member
Putting the Smash talk aside, that is a bad list in the video in the OP.
NeverYouMind
Member
A special event is a choice. Just like playing Dragon Ball FighterZ with more than two players online.
Not a fighting game. You try to grab or mug 3 power stones in an arena to unleash projectiles in a semi-invincible state or use a super on your opponents that takes all their lives. The second game even has a 3D beat 'em up level.
Not designed for two players. The only gauge is a super gauge and only landing a super changes kill/death count. Not a fighting game.
And with that, we can conclude that PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royal is a fighting game, but Smash Bros isn't.
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NeverYouMind
Member
It isn't. It is just throwing food at people like a jackass.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
It's not a "special event". It's a core part of the game because a huge chunk of this team are ex THQ people who worked on pro wrestling games. Damn near half the game's story mode features events with more than two fighters.
Your requirements are that the game must be 1v1 where your goal is to deplete your opponent's health fighting them. Power Stone fits the bill and the first game is strictly 1v1. Even Bushido Blade doesn't have a health bar.
The game is designed for up to 4 players. It works just as well 1v1. This criteria of yours is utterly ridiculous. Those games have no "default" setting, so I have no idea why you keep using that argument. You can play with 2, 3, 4, or more players, and in the case of Power Stone, only 2. Smash isn't any more default at 1v1 than it is at 2v2 or free for all.Not designed for two players. The only gauge is a super gauge and only landing a super changes kill/death count. Not a fighting game.
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Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
- Soul Calibur 2
- Soul Calibur 6
- Soul Calibur 1
- Soul Calibur 5
- Soul Calibur 3
- Soul Calibur 4
- Virtua Fighter 2
- Virtua Fighter 1
- Virtua Fighter 4
- Fighters Megamix
NeverYouMind
Member
You have to manually change your selection for more than 2 players as the game defaults to that.
UI presence or absence is irrelevant. Neither Power Stone is about landing attacks or throws on an opponent to drain health. It is all about using the items in line with it being a party game.
Even if it was exclusively 1v1 PlayStation All Stars Battle Royale would not be a fighting game.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
That's like saying outside of battle events, every fight is free-for-all. It's a pro wrestling/fighting games and those are built with 4 player battles, not just 1v1.
Amazing, more goal posts moving. You land attacks in addition to using items. You don't just do one or the other. You power up, transform, shoot projectiles, hit the opponents, you know, all the stuff you do in a fighting game, but at this point, it's clear you'll just twist and turn the definition whenever you feel like it because that's what you've been doing for a dozen posts. You say a few things, a game fits the bill, but it's not a fighting game because you said so.
NeverYouMind
Member
You have to manually change your selection for more than 2 players as the game defaults to that.
Fighting games are not about using items to drain your opponent's health or taking their multiple lives. It is that simple.
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Hero_Select
Member
You're legit talking to a wall. His mind is set and no matter what you say he's not going to change it.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
You literally don't? There are multiple modes available. What the heck are you on? You can choose 1v1 or free-for-all from the menu. There's no default.
And there are items too in Def Jam. Power Stone isn't "about that". It includes items and power-ups. It also includes regular attacks. Come on man, this is getting ridiculous. "Oh that game isn't a fighting game because you use items," now?
NeverYouMind
Member
Why would I change my mind when the maker of the game is of the same opinion and only the Stans are convinced that it is a lie.
NeverYouMind
Member
If you do not change your selection it goes to 1v1. If you make the conscious choice to change it, then it becomes something else.
The objective of Def Jam has little to do with picking up an item. It is barely worth doing whereas the entire game of Power Stone revolves around acquiring three gems and keeping your opponent from acquiring them.
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Gambit2483
Member
without SF2, the fighting game genre wouldn't even exist, as far as I'm concerned.
Any top 3 list that doesn't include SF can go **** itself
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
If you do not change the selection, it goes to story mode, which includes a myriad of 4 player fights and even some 2-3 vs 1. You're not making any sense. Stop this shit. "Oooh, the default is whatever the menu is." the fuck no it isn't. There's no "default" in those games. 4-player mode isn't some afterthought no one cares about like vs in Mario Kart 64. It's instrumental to the gameplay.
I don't care that it's "barely worth picking up". There are standard moves in addition to power-ups and items in Power Stone. You don't get to draw a line when there is too much item usage and when there isn't.
The objective of Def Jam has little to do with picking up an item. It is barely worth doing whereas the entire game of Power Stone revolves around acquiring three gems and keeping your opponent from acquiring them.
Seriously, he's just stonewalling at this point. Listed a bunch of criteria that he arbitrarily chose and when you point games that fit those, "nuh huh, they ain't fighters because too many items and 3+ players doesn't count."
NeverYouMind
Member
You cannot win in Power Stone by attacking your opponent to drain their health. You win by getting the three gems and using them. There are even two winners in Power Stone 2 by default unless two players KO each other simultaneously after the first loser is knocked out. Not a fighting game.
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NeverYouMind
Member
If it isn't a fighting game, then it falls in the brawler category due to shared mechanics.
Futaleufu
Member
Brawler is a big catch-all term so it should be fine.
I've noticed a lot people lately calling games like Splatterhouse "beat'em ups" when they are really action platformers.
NeverYouMind
Member
I think it has to do with a generation of beat 'em ups having Versus modes.
Splatterhouse in screenshots where the player character is unarmed could certainly pass for a beat 'em up for those that have not played it. The third is a beat 'em up as far as I can tell but has some interesting stage transitions.
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