Support NeoGAF

[Arulan]

Yes. If their vision is to eradicate physical media, then they're going to have to provide a solution for the used game/movie market.

I don't believe they will have to. Digital consumption has already spread to many markets and has become successful if not the standard. When you buy a digital MP3 or Album from Amazon or iTunes, can you resell it?

The "scary" thing about this becoming the standard on consoles is it leaves the publishers and/or console manufacturer's with full control over our purchased goods. It is very likely that both the new Xbox and the PS4 (already confirmed) will not support backwards compatibility, thus making your entire digital collection you've accumulated unplayable going forward. Does that mean Sony is going to make us pay for a premium subscription for the Gaikai services? Or perhaps charge us again for the PS1/PS2/PS3 games we already own? These last two statements are just speculation however.

The other issue, on PC, you can often get significant discounts on digital games either via Steam sales, Green Man Gaming offers, etc. If consoles do not follow a similar pricing system, there will be no advantage gained.

All digital distributors also suffer from distrust. You have to have some level of trust in said company that in 5, 10, or even 20 years from now they will still be around and you'll have your digital content on that account. I know at the very least that Valve has commented if they were to ever go out of business, they'd pull some "switch" to allow its users to access and acquire their accumulative library of games.

 

[Xenon]

I don't know the details, but while you can play games like Diablo 3 and World of Warcraft while the latest content patches and updates download, you will run into missing textures and the like in the meantime. At least that's been my experience, so I just wait until everything is fully installed before playing.

Something tells me that games will be designed around the auto install so I doubt people will see anything that bad. I am wondering about if you are reloading the game and starting at anything but the beginning of the game.

 

[ChosenPredator]

is it weird to say im excited by what Microsoft is doing the more doubt i hear a few pages ago makes me really curious to see what their live event may hold

 

[BlastProcessing]

You're assuming that EDGE aren't using this XDK as their source. I believe they are and have simply misunderstood the language used or perhaps something was lost during the relay of information.

The language is identical to the language they used in 2005. Their aim is for a console that is always online, so they can sell you content, subscriptions, etc but has now taken on the new dimension of automatic content delivery and patching and always connected, so you're always gaming/using the console as your primary device in the living room. It's been their ultimate goal since the Xbox.

Hell, I'm sure if you go back to the OG Xbox PR, you'll also find a reference to always online.



Indeed. Something people are wilfully ignoring.

There are more links in my post than just the Edge article. A lot has happened since 2005.

As for assumptions, There is nothing in this XDK document about used games. So, either someone at Edge has made a colossal mistake or they have another source.

 

[Karak]

They'll do something similar to say WoW's client which downloads data as you play and changes what it downloads depending on what you do. Microsoft has a ton of technology to do stuff like that (Click-to-Run, App-V etc) and already ship it in major products like Office.

Ya and its actually not all that trying, from what devs have talked about. You are right that it is being shipped and installed in various other hardware as well. Its a good idea and I am stoked to see how it pans out.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

There are more links in my post than just the Edge article. A lot has happened since 2005.

I ignored those as the likelihood of something similar to those happening on next xbox or PS4 is so minuscule it's not worth the effort of debating it.

If I'm proven wrong, you're more than welcome to call me on it and mock me relentlessly.

 

[jaypah]

I'm curious about this. How would it work? Wouldn't that require the data on the disc to be stored in a specific order, in order to launch the game while the rest of the content installed? Does anything do this now? Or would they essentially let you play from disc only as the game installs, then switch over to using the installed version when it's complete?

Just wondering how you could go about playing a game that isn't fully installed. (I'm not sure if anything does this now.)

yeah, how would that work with a game that has selectable stages and modes? Like a racing game for instance, if I wanted to try out some tracks on single race mode? Or I want to hop into a multiplayer FPS, how would all of the levels be available? I understand it for single player action games or a career mode in a racing game but not the other examples I posted.

 

[Eusis]

Nothing is impossible, but Sony managed to alienate their customers and developers with the release of the PS3 by making a machine that was overpriced and difficult to develop software on.

I don't see that happening with the 720. Most of the valid complaints are not that damaging. Even the ones that are rumored like inability to buy/sell used games have comparable examples of successes like Steam and the App store.

I do think it may be ignoring the nature of the two however if they go through with it: Steam was kind of a "better than the alternative" thing, as PC games had for a long time by then come with CD keys, and were starting to get more restrictive copy protection methods implemented, a direct result of how open the platform is and how easy it is to copy a disc. Steam is just kind of a compromise: you get the games locked down, but you can freely download and play them on other computers as long as you're logged in, even with a rare few actually being DRM free. Meanwhile, the app store's more out of necessity: there is no physical medium whatsoever, and so it's just the same as using the digital store fronts on consoles anyway. To lock down physical media on a platform that's naturally protected (so long as they didn't fuck up security) is kind of bullshit however, especially if they go the dumb route here and STILL require the physical disc when playing. All the disadvantages, none of the advantages.

 

[GayForMaster]

- Only digital audio out

Sorry I'm just trying to understand this, it doesn't support TV Audio or last-gen speakers?

 

[Doodis]

I'm curious about this. How would it work? Wouldn't that require the data on the disc to be stored in a specific order, in order to launch the game while the rest of the content installed? Does anything do this now? Or would they essentially let you play from disc only as the game installs, then switch over to using the installed version when it's complete?

Just wondering how you could go about playing a game that isn't fully installed. (I'm not sure if anything does this now.)

Although we don't know how this will work, Sony already announced at the PS4 reveal that this will happen with their online game downloads. So we know it's being worked out somehow.

 

[Hilbert]

yeah, how would that work with a game that has selectable stages and modes? Like a racing game for instance, if I wanted to try out some tracks on single race mode? Or I want to hop into a multiplayer FPS, how would all of the levels be available? I understand it for single player action games or a career mode in a racing game but not the other examples I posted.

Halo 2 for windows vista you could play while installing, including jumping right into multiplayer. If you selected a map that hadn't been installed yet, it would start installing that specific data. I think it told the user, and they had to wait just a little bit longer.

Shadowrun also used the same tech I think.

 

[jaypah]

Halo 2 for windows vista you could play while installing, including jumping right into multiplayer. If you selected a map that hadn't been installed yet, it would start installing that specific data. I think it told the user, and they had to wait just a little bit longer.

Shadowrun also used the same tech I think.

ah, that's pretty cool. Thanks for the reply!

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't know the details, but while you can play games like Diablo 3 and World of Warcraft while the latest content patches and updates download, you will run into missing textures and the like in the meantime. At least that's been my experience, so I just wait until everything is fully installed before playing.

I'm interested in how it will work as well. I imagine it would require data to be stored in a specific order. Arkham Asylum installs during gameplay, it's probably similar in execution.

They'll do something similar to say WoW's client which downloads data as you play and changes what it downloads depending on what you do. Microsoft has a ton of technology to do stuff like that (Click-to-Run, App-V etc) and already ship it in major products like Office.

yeah, how would that work with a game that has selectable stages and modes? Like a racing game for instance, if I wanted to try out some tracks on single race mode? Or I want to hop into a multiplayer FPS, how would all of the levels be available? I understand it for single player action games or a career mode in a racing game but not the other examples I posted.

Thanks guys, that makes sense. There would have to be some kind of standard so enough of the game gets installed to get it up and running early, with content the player would get exposed to later in the game installing after you start playing. Seems like it just adds one more thing for developers to wrangle, but it's doable.

 

[Hilbert]

ah, that's pretty cool. Thanks for the reply!

I actually worked a bit on the tech for halo 2, it would be awesome to see it come back!

 

[BlastProcessing]

Indeed. Something people are wilfully ignoring.

I ignored those as the likelihood of something similar to those happening on next xbox or PS4 is so minuscule it's not worth the effort of debating it.

If I'm proven wrong, you're more than welcome to call me on it and mock me relentlessly.

My point is not that any of those things proves that Xbox or Playstation will do something similar. My point is that there are very real things that very much happened since the launch of the Xbox that have changed some peoples perceptions of "always connected."

There is a reason some people are reacting to this the way they are. It has to do with a larger context.

 

[Yoshi]

Now, the question is, what does it actually mean? Do they mean always connected like the Wii was always connected (which is no problem, just pull the plug if you don't want that), or do they mean if the console doesn't have internet access you won't be able to play your games (which to me means: No buy, no matter what happens).

 

[Kyoufu]

Now, the question is, what does it actually mean? Do they mean always connected like the Wii was always connected (which is no problem, just pull the plug if you don't want that), or do they mean if the console doesn't have internet access you won't be able to play your games (which to me means: No buy, no matter what happens).

Their emphasis on that feature suggests the latter to me, especially given EDGE's rumours.

They would be crazy to do such a thing though.

 

[KageMaru]

I'm curious about this. How would it work? Wouldn't that require the data on the disc to be stored in a specific order, in order to launch the game while the rest of the content installed? Does anything do this now? Or would they essentially let you play from disc only as the game installs, then switch over to using the installed version when it's complete?

Just wondering how you could go about playing a game that isn't fully installed. (I'm not sure if anything does this now.)

IIRC Halo 2 Vista was one of the first PC games (if not the first) to install during play. I think there were streaming issues that popped up, but that ceased once it was fully installed. I believe other games have done this since then, as others have pointed out.

Unlike games on the PC, the process could be smoother/seamless on a console where every hardware configuration is exactly the same. IIRC the current XDK for the 360 already sorts the data on the disc to make the most of the limited space, but this would be tweaked by the devs as well if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong on this last bit, it's been a long time since I heard this. Point is the new XDK could do something similar where the developer no longer has to worry about where to place data on the disc to optimize loading/streaming. Instead it could place the data in the most optimal order for install while playing.

Nice to see you back!

40+ pages. Neogaf is READY!

Thanks, though I've been back for a while now. Just really really busy and also enjoying GAF's reactions to everything next gen. =p

 

[fillup]

You're talking about the always on part not the always connected.

It's very clear in the document what always connected means. It's not for DRM. It's to keep the system up to date.

"The console will be ready instantly when users want to play, and will always maintain a network connection so that console software and games are always current."

 

[uncledonnie]

Now, the question is, what does it actually mean? Do they mean always connected like the Wii was always connected (which is no problem, just pull the plug if you don't want that), or do they mean if the console doesn't have internet access you won't be able to play your games (which to me means: No buy, no matter what happens).

I really don't see any way the latter is true. They will not even be able to sell the thing in many regions if it is. I'm nearly positive it's the former, and Sony is doing the same thing.

 

[Kyoufu]

It's very clear in the document what always connected means. It's not for DRM. It's to keep the system up to date.

"The console will be ready instantly when users want to play, and will always maintain a network connection so that console software and games are always current."

That's their selling point, but they could attach DRM to it and try to hide it under the rug.

 

[Xenon]

I do think it may be ignoring the nature of the two however if they go through with it: Steam was kind of a "better than the alternative" thing, as PC games had for a long time by then come with CD keys, and were starting to get more restrictive copy protection methods implemented, a direct result of how open the platform is and how easy it is to copy a disc. Steam is just kind of a compromise: you get the games locked down, but you can freely download and play them on other computers as long as you're logged in, even with a rare few actually being DRM free. Meanwhile, the app store's more out of necessity: there is no physical medium whatsoever, and so it's just the same as using the digital store fronts on consoles anyway. To lock down physical media on a platform that's naturally protected (so long as they didn't fuck up security) is kind of bullshit however, especially if they go the dumb route here and STILL require the physical disc when playing. All the disadvantages, none of the advantages.

MS having to release a physical copy of their games would also be a necessity due to a need to have a presence in retail locations. Also as others have said not everyone will have an internet connections. If they did decide to go with something like this I would hope the physical disk would only be required until you activated the software. IIRC MS has a patent to write back data on the disk and disable it from being loaded on another system. Once that happens the disk should no longer be needed. The upside of something like this for us would be the advantages of digital with the possibility of being able to take advantage of sales and store specials.

However, if they do still require a disk, they deserve all the hate they get.

 

[fillup]

If you can only play games from the hard disk, what's the point in having a Blu-Ray drive?

Distribution. Not everyone has unlimited high speed internet required to download these large games. MS knows this, so they will offer games on physical media as well as via download. Where I live, the only access to high speed internet is from Satellite.....which has a 525 MB per day cap!

Also watching Blu-Ray movies.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

My point is not that any of those things proves that Xbox or Playstation will do something similar. My point is that there are very real things that very much happened since the launch of the Xbox that have changed some peoples perceptions of "always connected."

There is a reason some people are reacting to this the way they are. It has to do with a larger context.

Those things may indeed have happened, but they aren't remotely close to what is described in the documentation. It's not particularly hard to grasp what they are trying to convey with the language used if you read the documentation, which is something I perhaps wrongly assumed everyone here had done.

Just in case you haven't, here's what it says courtesy of young fillup.

"The console will be ready instantly when users want to play, and will always maintain a network connection so that console software and games are always current."

So am I right in assuming you and others who are complaining about this haven't actually read the documentation and are simply feeding on each others wrong interpretation of the information?

I'd like to say I'm shocked, but I'd be lying.

 

[Amir0x]

And right now you dont know anything about the console. You know what is rumored but you dont have any facts to base these rants on. How can you complain that MS is not spending enough money improving the system when you dont know what is in the system to begin with? Thats an open ended complaint that you could throw out there no matter what MS puts in its next system. Since you dont like Kinect no matter what CPU/GPU/RAM, etc....they put in that box you could sit there and say "the Kinect is trash and MS could have spent that money improving the system".

Thank the lord we only have about 1 month until this thing is revealed and then we can have fact based discussions on what is and isnt in the box and what it can and cant do. Right now its just people throwing out nightmare scenario after scenario based on nothing but rumors. I mean we have people talking about being afraid to do anything in their living room because someone will be watching them through the Kinect. Mind you these same people have a webcam pointed at them right now that they havent given a second thought to.

I don't have a webcam. Don't even own one. Don't want one.

Now, one doesn't need any further evidence to say everything I said and be completely right about it - unless Durango is going to be $500 or $600, which is just as bad, they're sacrificing real improvements to their system in order to get Kinect in there and the system at a relatively affordable price range. It's that simple. There's no magic talk here, just common sense. And because Kinect is so abysmal, one can divine quite easily that it's a bad choice without even seeing the system itself, because there are so many more valuable improvements that can work to help ALL genres instead of the miserable two or three shit genres that Kinect has helped masturbate. All systems are a series of trade-offs; Kinect being in every system, and improved Kinect tech at that, means a set value goes up, which has to be taken from the price elsewhere.

Now you can say 'well it's all rumour until the day the system is announced, so why all this conjecture' and I'd just say we wouldn't have a discussion topic right now without this sort of thing. But it's safe to assume that Durango is not made out of magic, so therefore what I said is the logical conclusion.

It's a forced broken gimmick that is only one corner of the shit mountain that has been rumoured about Durango so far... and as we stand here, slowly but surely more things than not are being confirmed about what the rumours have said. I'm sure they will get some things wrong, but all signs definitely point to Kinect being in every system and there's real signs about the anti-consumer used game practicies and whatnot. It's just a big disaster in the making unless it's all false... which I presume is not your stance.

 

[Kyoufu]

So am I right in assuming you and others who are complaining about this haven't actually read the documentation and are simply feeding on each others wrong interpretation of the information?

I'd like to say I'm shocked, but I'd be lying.

We're following EDGE. They got PS4 spot on so we're assuming they have the Durango spot on too.

 

[H_Prestige]

Didn't edge already confirm always online?

 

[Reiko]

We're following EDGE. They got PS4 spot on so we're assuming they have the Durango spot on too.

Even the best "insiders" are prone to failure.

Not saying they are right or wrong.

 

[Kyoufu]

Even the best "insiders" are prone to failure.

Not saying they are right or wrong.

Not saying they're right or wrong either. Just going by what we're given so far. It'll all be clear when it's revealed.

MS needs to hurry up and show me the goods.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Kinect to Voyeurs.

Give Ballmer and Co a show.

Freeballing for Ballmer...

 

[statham]

edge said no used games, then the next day says it could be activation fees. HUGE difference and the fact they don't know which is telling.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Er, did anyone else see how

Spoiler

VGLeaks gave away the identity of their source in one of the pictures when the article first went up?

No didn't catch that. Anyone interesting? (probably best to PM)

 

[XtremeXpider]

We're following EDGE. They got PS4 spot on so we're assuming they have the Durango spot on too.

You trust in Edge, then, you believe Durango GPU is unknown:

We have confirmed with sources that recently leaked tech specs are accurate. Though Durango devkits offer 8GB of DDR3 RAM, compared to Orbis’s 4GB, Sony’s GDDR5 solution is capable of moving data at 176 gigabytes per second, which should eliminate the sort of bottlenecks that hampered PS3 game performance. Importantly, we’ve learned that Sony has told developers that it is pushing for the final PS4 RAM to match up to Microsoft’s 8GB.

Both platforms are driven by eight-core AMD CPUs clocked at 1.6GHz, with Microsoft opting for a D3D11.x GPU from an unknown source and Sony utilising a more capable solution in AMD’s ‘R10XX’ architecture, alongside the so-called ‘Liverpool’ system-on-chip.

Not AMD GPU? Who is "the source" for Durango GPU? If you trust in Edge, then you believe all what they have said.

 

[Uno Venova]

Didn't edge already confirm always online?

Yep.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

Not saying they're right or wrong either. Just going by what we're given so far. It'll all be clear when it's revealed.

MS needs to hurry up and show me the goods.

Why?

Even if they dont show you the goods until E3 thats a good 5 months until the holiday season, when the machine will likely be on sale. Everyone should be able to make up their mind on which system they want in 5 months.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

We're following EDGE. They got PS4 spot on so we're assuming they have the Durango spot on too.

Why not read and follow the documentation? Doesn't that make more sense? It's allegedly official, so what reason could there be to discount it in favour of what EDGE have said?

Or is this a case of choosing to ignore something that doesn't fit the narrative a number of posters have chosen to follow?

 

[Uno Venova]

Why not read and follow the documentation? Doesn't that make more sense? It's allegedly official, so what reason could there be to discount it in favour of what EDGE have said?

Or is this a case of choosing to ignore something that doesn't fit the narrative a number of posters have chosen to follow?

What edge rumors does the documentation disprove. why not follow the site with such a great track record?

 

[AgentP]

They said the 360 would be always connected, too.

MS press release from 2005

In its full context it is clearly PR speak and not technical.

Available this holiday season in North America, Europe and Japan, Xbox 360 will ignite a new era of digital entertainment that is always connected, always personalized and always in high definition.

So don't combat misinformation with more misinformation. At this point no one knows what MS means in the XDK help, it is too nebulous.

 

[XtremeXpider]

What edge rumors does the documentation disprove. why not follow the site with such a great track record?

I guess he mean this: http://www.edge-online.com/news/the...hand-games-50gb-blu-ray-discs-and-new-kinect/

 

[Dabanton]

So I see EDGE posted another article referencing the VGLeaks article. It's probably been posted already but no harm doing it again.

Fresh documents posted on vgleaks.com related to the next Xbox are real, our source has confirmed.

Our insider described the screengrabs from the Durango SDK on vgleaks.com as “entirely legitimate”, although they contain much of the same information we revealed on February 6th, and were circulated to developers working with the console last year.

The ‘Durango Hardware Overview’ section re-iterates that Microsoft’s next-generation console – codenamed Durango – will be “always on, always connected”.

“Durango will implement different power states so that it can always be powered on, but will draw minimal electricity when not in use,” the document reads. “The console will be ready instantly when users want to play, and will always maintain a network connection so that console software and games are always current. With this “Always On, Always Connected” design, users will quickly and easily enjoy their connected entertainment experiences, with no waiting for the console to restart or install games.”

The new leak also tallies with our original story in that it confirms the new console will be bundled with a new, improved Kinect and also include a Blu-Ray disc drive.

It does reveal, however, that all games on Blu-Ray will be installed onto the console’s hard drive, and that play from the optical disc will not be supported. Game players will, however, be able to play games as they are being installed on the console.
http://www.edge-online.com/news/new-always-on-always-connected-durango-leak-is-real/

I'm still astounded that Journos are all seemingly working off of one docu. I wonder how deep their sources are? As it all seems very circular at the moment.

Where are the real bombs? I'm astounded MS has kept new info to a bare minimum.

 

[seattle6418]

All i read about this is that companies might try some new draconian DRM stuff but it wont matter in the end because thanks to the PC like architecture, those consoles will be homebrewed on their first week.

If it´s online only to play games i´m sure the hackers will be there day one to ensure there´s offline play. I heard this has already happened in Sim City... so companies shouldn´t bother with this kind of thing.

 

[artist]

So don't combat misinformation with more misinformation. At this point no one knows what MS means in the XDK help, it is too nebulous.

Some one posted the same link thrice upstream, :lol

What edge rumors does the documentation disprove. why not follow the site with such a great track record?

None. Failing to mention no used games equals Edge was wrong.

 

[Xanonano]

No didn't catch that. Anyone interesting? (probably best to PM)

Yes. All I'll say though is: it's not SuperDae.

 

[Neuromancer]

In its full context it is clearly PR speak and not technical.



So don't combat misinformation with more misinformation. At this point no one knows what MS means in the XDK help, it is too nebulous.

That's not misinformation. MS has used that term before and not to describe always-online. Whether it's PR speak or not is irrelevant.

I agree that doesn't answer the question, though; it's still vague. So we'll see.

 

[Reiko]

Where are the real bombs? I'm astounded MS has kept new info to a bare minimum.

MS First Party Devs:

...Poor Stinkles...

 

[TunaLover]

All systems are a series of trade-offs; Kinect being in every system, and improved Kinect tech at that, means a set value goes up, which has to be taken from the price elsewhere.

MS has infinite money to burn, they can subsidize the console price again =P

 

[Miles Quaritch]

What edge rumors does the documentation disprove. why not follow the site with such a great track record?

That online is mandatory? It's not mentioned anywhere in the documentation.

So don't combat misinformation with more misinformation. At this point no one knows what MS means in the XDK help, it is too nebulous.

"It is always online"

The console will also be always online

"We think about Xbox 360 as being always connected..."

This is from the official reveal, it's mentioned numerous times that the console is always online, always connected. It's not disinformation, it's in direct contradiction to the narrative you've been following.

 

[jaypah]

Yes. All I'll say though is: it's not SuperDae.

interesting. A name that we would know?

 

[Punchpudding]

I've never seen so much reading in between the lines based on a few sentences before. I always assume the worst of any company but I think I'll wait before reacting (or fist bumping, or whatever is going on).

 

[Uno Venova]

That online is mandatory? It's not mentioned anywhere in the documentation.





This is from the official reveal, it's mentioned numerous times that the console is always online, always connected. It's not disinformation, it's in direct contradiction to the narrative you've been following.

Not stating it doesn't mean it's disproving it.