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[USC-fan]

Its not unique to Xbox but since you cannot use the service on anything else other than phones and computers its a pretty big deal for the 360. See here in the US people like to watch college football, and they like to watch college football on big screen tvs not on computers. So the fact that the service can be used on a 5 inch phone is irrelevant when it comes to the majority of people interested in that content.

You discount the service because to you a sports only service isnt really that great. But im telling you as a sports fan a lot of people love that service. For many non-powerhouse schools Watch ESPN is the only way fans can even see their team play. I have seen many instances where people have bought 360s specifically to use that app.

works on google tv.

A lot cheaper than x360.

 

[Meccanical]

Hell no, the PS3 controller is much superior IMO, and it seems like it will get even better on the PS4.

Eh, the PS4 looks like the best of both worlds anyway.

Maybe.

I dunno I never had a problem with either controller.

 

[FuturusX]

Its not unique to Xbox but since you cannot use the service on anything else other than phones and computers its a pretty big deal for the 360. See here in the US people like to watch college football, and they like to watch college football on big screen tvs not on computers. So the fact that the service can be used on a 5 inch phone is irrelevant when it comes to the majority of people interested in that content.

You discount the service because to you a sports only service isnt really that great. But im telling you as a sports fan a lot of people love that service. For many non-powerhouse schools Watch ESPN is the only way fans can even see their team play. I have seen many instances where people have bought 360s specifically to use that app.

You have no idea what kind of sports fan I am, but that's irrelevant.

Your anecdotal response proves that you know few friends that like ESPN enough to buy an Xbox. It's hardly direct evidence of a service that actually moves units in the broader sense.

I know many Live GOLD members who love sports. But can't use that service due to ISP restrictions. How anyone can provide such a crippled service as the center piece for the LIVE experience is beyond comprehension.

 

[Uno Venova]

Eh, the PS4 looks like the best of both worlds anyway.

Maybe.

I dunno I never had a problem with either controller.

I'm pretty good with both as well.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

Since you have to be a cable subscriber to even use the ESPN app I imagine the vast majority still just watch college football that way. The reason they have otherwise concentrated on mobile platforms is because the service is most useful to people away from their TVs.

Like i said, the only way to watch a lot of the non-powerhouse schools is through that app. Even the big schools dont have all of their games televised. A lot of GT fans depend on that app to watch our games.

ESPN charges 15 bucks a week to view a portion of those games. If you have a 360 you can watch all of them for 3 bucks a month.

I know many Live GOLD members who love sports. But can't use that service due to ISP restrictions. How anyone can provide such a crippled service as the center piece for the LIVE experience is beyond comprehension.

It doesnt have to be a centerpiece. You get enough of those services and it becomes a selling point. So while Watch ESPN alone may not be big to you, when you start adding in other things like HBO Go, it starts to add up.

Also which major ISPs does Watch ESPN not work with? For a long time i know it didnt work with Time Warner but that was added last year. It also works for Uverse. I dont think the service is as crippled as you are claiming.

 

[Baconsammy]

Considering what you've said about Nintendo on the exact opposite side of this argument, I'd be weary of taking this stance.

And what have I said about Nintendo regarding checking boxes?

 

[Satchel]

Asymmetrical sucks =X

One thing I realized the other day about the dualshock is that the stick placement throws people.

I used to think the problem was stick placement but its not. Its ergonomics.

Those handles are too fucking small, so to hold the controller without contorting your thumbs to use the sticks, the controller needs to sit ABOVE your palms. The DS4 seems to have gone some way to fixing this.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

If only the PS4 had a 360 style controller.

I'm with you on that.. but as with PS3 there will be a 3rd party brand with the 360 position analog sticks.

 

[phosphor112]

One thing I realized the other day about the dualshock is that the stick placement throws people.

I used to think the problem was stick placement but its not. Its ergonomics.

Those handles are too fucking small, so to hold the controller without contorting your thumbs to use the sticks, the controller needs to sit ABOVE your palms. The DS4 seems to have gone some way to fixing this.

Yeah, it is about ergonomics, but I really don't see the appeal that some people have for asymmetric sticks. It makes no sense. Our hands SHOULD be the same on each side.

 

[Mindlog]

Yeah, it is about ergonomics, but I really don't see the appeal that some people have for asymmetric sticks. It makes no sense. Our hands SHOULD be the same on each side.

I agree. Both controllers suck because our thumbs are responsible for two sticks and thirteen buttons with only 4 more buttons elsewhere. With a little more thought our thumbs would be symmetrically at rest without the need to constantly move them off the sticks.

 

[CLEEK]

If only the PS4 had a 360 style controller.

You asymmetric chumps are funny.

 

[Sky Chief]

One thing I realized the other day about the dualshock is that the stick placement throws people.

I used to think the problem was stick placement but its not. Its ergonomics.

Those handles are too fucking small, so to hold the controller without contorting your thumbs to use the sticks, the controller needs to sit ABOVE your palms. The DS4 seems to have gone some way to fixing this.

Try holding the controller very loosely in your finger tips instead. You should not be holding the handles tightly and certainly not touching any part of the controller with your palms which should be to the sides of the controller. None of your hands should be making contact with the controller except your fingers. If you hold the controller like that you will have a much better experience.

 

[Sky Chief]

I agree. Both controllers suck because our thumbs are responsible for two sticks and thirteen buttons with only 4 more buttons elsewhere. With a little more thought our thumbs would be symmetrically at rest without the need to constantly move them off the sticks.

I have never understood why nobody has designed a controller with buttons on the bottom where our fingers are. Make use of the other six fingers we have

 

[adelante]

You asymmetric chumps are funny.

http://www.thesharkguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dr-nick-riviera1.gif[//IMG][/QUOTE]

Other than shooters, I play a ton of FIFA so I prefer left stick to be in line with face buttons.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

I have never understood why nobody has designed a controller with buttons on the bottom where our fingers are. Make use of the other six fingers we have

Because then you cant see them. Thats a huge problem for people who dont play video games as much as we do.

 

[phosphor112]

I have never understood why nobody has designed a controller with buttons on the bottom where our fingers are. Make use of the other six fingers we have

100% agree.

 

[adelante]

I have never understood why nobody has designed a controller with buttons on the bottom where our fingers are. Make use of the other six fingers we have

Our index and thumbs are used for daily tasks (writing with a pen, tapping on phones, eating, etc) so naturally they're far more responsive, and besides, those six fingers already have an important role - grip.

 

[Usobuko]

I'm with you on that.. but as with PS3 there will be a 3rd party brand with the 360 position analog sticks.

I'm not so sure with that because sony has this weird touchscreen on their new controller and functionality-wise, there is still more to see. Also, didn't someone that used to make these controllers said they would stopping making for consoles? I can't remember the name.

 

[Alcander]

Because then you cant see them. Thats a huge problem for people who dont play video games as much as we do.

Eh, highly doubt its a line-of-sight issue. People are pretty used to typing without looking at the keyboard, and we already have buttons under the controller which are used. My gut feeling is that its an ergonomics issue -- pushing buttons at that angle with your weaker fingers (pinky, ring) is just too awkward.

 

[Massa]

I have never understood why nobody has designed a controller with buttons on the bottom where our fingers are. Make use of the other six fingers we have

It just doesn't work right.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

Eh, highly doubt its a line-of-sight issue. People are pretty used to typing without looking at the keyboard, and we already have buttons under the controller which are used. My gut feeling is that its an ergonomics issue -- pushing buttons at that angle with your weaker fingers (pinky, ring) is just too awkward.

People who are used to typing are used to typing without looking at the keyboard. Everyone else is looking down.

But you are right, it would also be awkward.

 

[CLEEK]

It just doesn't work right.

The rear touch pad on the Vita is the worst 'innovation' in games controls I have ever had the misfortune to experience. You should be able to disable it in the OS to force devs to make it optional.

 

[Freaky Fred]

It just doesn't work right.

I think it works quite well in certain situations. I absolutely love it for Hot Shots Golf, and scrolling in the browser with the rear touch is pretty neat too.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-we-dont-want-to-upset-xbox-360-retailers-with-games-on-demand

I really doubt they will block used games since they still think about retailers

There are tons of rumors about how the next version of the Xbox may have an always-on Internet connection in order to keep consumers from selling their retail disc games. However, for the current Xbox 360 console, it appears that Microsoft wants to keep its strong relationship with brick-and-mortar stores and will avoid selling major games day-and-date with their retail releases.

While Sony's PlayStation 3 and Nintendo's Wii U both offer some major games via download on the same days they first appear in stores, Microsoft doesn't have that kind of program for its own Games on Demand service for the Xbox 360. The company typically waits several weeks or even months to offer disc-based games for download.

Joystiq reports that during a panel this week at the MIT Business in Games conference, Microsoft's Xbox Games on Demand Senior Business Manager Erik Yeager explained the reasons for the company's current policy:
"We have a lot of strong partnerships with retailers. We really need them to do a lot for us. They're the ones out there selling the consoles, selling the peripherals and, in this time, we're trying to figure out how to fit that in to the whole digital landscape shift."

We have a lot of strong partnerships with retailers. We really need them to do a lot for us. They're the ones out there selling the consoles, selling the peripherals and, in this time, we're trying to figure out how to fit that in to the whole digital landscape shift.
The bottom line seems to be that Microsoft wants to keep its working relationship solid with retailers such as GameStop, Walmart, Best Buy and others in terms of giving them the first shot of selling Xbox 360 games.

The big question: Will the rumors of blocking used game sales for the next Xbox turn out to be true and, if so, will that cause a major rift between Microsoft and GameStop, which relies heavily on sales of used games? Indeed, an executive for the retailer has already said their customer surveys have indicated gamers won't buy next-generation consoles if they can't resell their games.

 

[Rourkey]

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-we-dont-want-to-upset-xbox-360-retailers-with-games-on-demand

I really doubt they will block used games since they still think about retailers

It must be possible to come up with a scheme that benefits everyone, why not have an activation key system that charges $5 to transfer a game to a system, it means getting $5 less for used games but means the games industry gets more cash meaning better, cheaper and more games, there could be an industry dividend to the manufacturer who makes it work

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I'm not so sure with that because sony has this weird touchscreen on their new controller and functionality-wise, there is still more to see. Also, didn't someone that used to make these controllers said they would stopping making for consoles? I can't remember the name.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/07/cronus-adapter-lets-you-play-xbox-360-with-a-ps3-controller-and/

Would something like this work?

 

[Zen]

One thing I realized the other day about the dualshock is that the stick placement throws people.

I used to think the problem was stick placement but its not. Its ergonomics.

Those handles are too fucking small, so to hold the controller without contorting your thumbs to use the sticks, the controller needs to sit ABOVE your palms. The DS4 seems to have gone some way to fixing this.

You don't grip the controller tightly like an idiot, if you do that you have to contort your thumbs, if you don't, you don't.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

It must be possible to come up with a scheme that benefits everyone, why not have an activation key system that charges $5 to transfer a game to a system, it means getting $5 less for used games but means the games industry gets more cash meaning better, cheaper and more games, there could be an industry dividend to the manufacturer who makes it work

There will undoubtedly be an activation key system in place, but it won't be $5 and it won't be limited to next xbox titles.

Expect it to range from $10 to $20 dollars and will be implemented by publishers for both PS4 and next xbox games. I've said numerous times, this is the evolutionary end point of online passes, the moment they started to restrict single player content, the writing was on the wall.

Some people will want to carry on believing the status quo will continue, they simply refuse to accept the reality of the situation.

 

[Bgamer90]

Watch ESPN is not unique to Xbox - I can do that elsewhere, using an app for example, it's not a unique compelling service feature. It's not on PS3, but it's on competing platforms, that are not games consoles.

It's unique in terms of consoles and it is compelling to a lot of people.

Because it isn't to you doesn't mean it's not that way for others. Being able to watch ESPN content easily with a box that hooks up to the TV without needing cable is a big plus in the eyes of some cord cutters.

All the video services are that way. If I'm a casual user interested in those services, why go to the expense of getting an Xbox 360 over a Roku or my Samsung TV.

Maybe because you are a person who is into gaming who likes to play big name games as well?

The one thing my TV, Roku can not do is play games. But do the people interested in these services want to play games?

I think so. On both the PS3 and 360 recent activity stats have shown that people spent more time viewing media than playing games.

 

[Mandoric]

It's unique in terms of consoles and it is compelling to a lot of people.

Because it isn't to you doesn't mean it's not that way for others. Being able to watch ESPN content easily with a box that hooks up to the TV without needing cable is a big plus in the eyes of some cord cutters.

He's pointing that it's not even a unique feature in terms of set-top boxes.

All the apps of this type, whether it's MS's ESPN3 or Sony's Lovefilm or whatever Nintendo is calling theirs, are going to wither and die as USPs over the next gen. I can't see Sony and MS not both having modern browsers that will run the PC versions.

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

He's pointing that it's not even a unique feature in terms of set-top boxes.

All the apps of this type, whether it's MS's ESPN3 or Sony's Lovefilm or whatever Nintendo is calling theirs, are going to wither and die as USPs over the next gen. I can't see Sony and MS not both having modern browsers that will run the PC versions.

Except that it is.

Also i dont want to run the PC version of anything as navigating a browser without a mouse and keyboard is a pain. Id rather have a separate app made specifically for console use.

 

[Mandoric]

Except that it is.

Also i dont want to run the PC version of anything as navigating a browser without a mouse and keyboard is a pain. Id rather have a separate app made specifically for console use.

Works on Google TV. At least, I've set it up for people, and they haven't come yelling at me to fix it. Apple TV apparently, too!

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

Works on Google TV. At least, I've set it up for people, and they haven't come yelling at me to fix it. Apple TV apparently, too!

On Apple TV dont you have to stream it using Airplay from another device.

And i dont think that Google TV app is optimized for that service, meaning you get the crappy Android version that people dislike.

 

[bobbytkc]

It just doesn't work right.

It works well, when used correctly. Loved it in Jetpack Joyride, Loved it in LBP: Vita, Loved it for the browser. All the rest of the implementations are meh. The only game I see that will use it well in the future is that media molecule game.

If they make a new patapon game where you beat the back panel like a drum using both hands, they can have all my moneys.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

If this is true, next xbox,

 

[FuturusX]

It's unique in terms of consoles and it is compelling to a lot of people.

Because it isn't to you doesn't mean it's not that way for others. Being able to watch ESPN content easily with a box that hooks up to the TV without needing cable is a big plus in the eyes of some cord cutters.

Still trying to think of a unique service provided by LIVE? Get back to me when you can. The fact that Watch ESPN is not on PS3 was never in dispute. Talking up ESPN3 on Xbox is nice and all, but it's not the point.

Clearly there are people who can get Watch ESPN elsewhere and do. Just like Netflix or the other video services.

 

[QaaQer]

He's pointing that it's not even a unique feature in terms of set-top boxes.

All the apps of this type, whether it's MS's ESPN3 or Sony's Lovefilm or whatever Nintendo is calling theirs, are going to wither and die as USPs over the next gen. I can't see Sony and MS not both having modern browsers that will run the PC versions.

The browsers might be modern, but they will still most likely be gimped because these platform holders are all about control, and getting their customers to do what they want them to do for maximum profit. They will want users to go through official apps or services so they can get a cut + keep track of data for marketing purposes + ecosystem lock-in. A full-on modern html5 browser would give too many options to customers, including a way to play royalty free games; can't have people playing farmville or warface royalty free.

I hope Sony will include Chrome or a Chromium fork with full extension support and MS an unadulterated desktop IE10, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Haggis]

It's a pretty stark improvement.

Now if only they would change the stick layouts or widen them a bit. That is my biggest complaint with the Dualshock. My thumbs cramp up being in that position for any length of time. 360's controller...hell even the original Duke on the original XBOX felt better.

 

[Four_Chamber]

Its not unique to Xbox but since you cannot use the service on anything else other than phones and computers its a pretty big deal for the 360. See here in the US people like to watch college football, and they like to watch college football on big screen tvs not on computers. So the fact that the service can be used on a 5 inch phone is irrelevant when it comes to the majority of people interested in that content.

You discount the service because to you a sports only service isnt really that great. But im telling you as a sports fan a lot of people love that service. For many non-powerhouse schools Watch ESPN is the only way fans can even see their team play. I have seen many instances where people have bought 360s specifically to use that app.

Agreed- as a huge sports fan out of my teams market, watching HD football games on my TV is a service I can uniquely get on my Xbox. In my opinion, its the most fully featured app on the Xbox and the best console app made period in my opinion. Honestly, I'm unsure if the people criticizing it have even used it- its really that good (yes, I was pissed when TWC didn't have it but now it does so no more complaining from me). There really is no better way to watch out of market college sports. Please don't pretend that watching college football on an iPad or PC is equivalent either- not everybody can afford HTPCs.

I imagine Microsoft is going to have some amazing media inroads again and I'm looking forward to seeing them. I think the interactivity with things like March Madness, NFL season, etc is going to be ramped up big time. Really excited to see what they do.

On a side note, assymetrical sticks for life. Never going to be comfortable with symmetrical sticks again.

 

[Arkham]

Try holding the controller very loosely in your finger tips instead. You should not be holding the handles tightly and certainly not touching any part of the controller with your palms which should be to the sides of the controller. None of your hands should be making contact with the controller except your fingers. If you hold the controller like that you will have a much better experience.

This. It's the proper way to hold the DS. I can't believe people are gripping the handles in an ironfist.

 

[ekim]

Try holding the controller very loosely in your finger tips instead. You should not be holding the handles tightly and certainly not touching any part of the controller with your palms which should be to the sides of the controller. None of your hands should be making contact with the controller except your fingers. If you hold the controller like that you will have a much better experience.

That feels worse imho...

 

[Reiko]

Interesting post from bkilian. (Former MS/Durango developer)


http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1722152&postcount=2409

Originally Posted by Cyan
The only person who could know something is bkillian, but I think that the console is being made in near total secrecy to the point that he doesn't know what it is inside the console.

I think he just worked on the audio chip, without knowing exactly which are the other chips the console is going to have.

I'm not saying that he doesn't know, the possibility is there no matter how little, but I think the different Xbox departments don't know what the others are doing, only their supervisors -the bigwigs- know what the console is going to have inside.

So bkillian has to go with the flow and he barely flies in the face of rumours.

Originally Posted by bkillian
No, I knew quite well what was in the unannounced product I was working on. I had access to all the documentation, even though I didn't read all of it. Things like form factor, silicon node process, marketing plans and such were not important for me to know, since I was concerned mainly with how it performs and writing code for it, so I never tried to find that stuff out.

Originally Posted by Cyan
From what I understand from the little piece of information we have, my only implication was that there are bandwidth similarities and that if you subtract 2 CUs from Bonaire you get the allegedly same Tflops of Durango. Just sayin'...

Originally Posted by bkillian
And if you add 6 CUs to Durango, you get the same TFLOPS as PS4. OMG! Hate to tell you this, but every GCN card at the same clock rate and with the same number of CUs will have the same number of TFLOPS. Probably GCN1.1 and GCN2 too, unless they change the number of threads per CU. TFLOPS does not tell you much else about the card other than how many adds and multiplies it can do, which is pretty much set by the number of CUs and clock speed. It doesn't tell you about the memory subsystem, it doesn't tell you about the amount of cache, it doesn't tell you about the number of ROPS it has, or how many planes it can write to, or how it's pipelined, or it's performance with branch heavy code, or pretty much anything.

 

[coldfoot]

Interesting post from bkilian. (Former MS/Durango developer)


http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1722152&postcount=2409

What is so interesting about it? We all know the difference between AMD 7xxx cards boils down to CU's, ROPS, and memory bandwidth.

 

[specialguy]

More interesting is he recently said MS execs indeed expected PS4 to more powerful, and didn't care.

 

[coldfoot]

More interesting is he recently said MS execs indeed expected PS4 to more powerful, and didn't care.

That's still not a big surprise, Xbox is just an excuse for MS to rent a TV-box operating system (Xbox Live) that can also play games much more competently than a Nintendo/Apple box. That's their vision and they have no problem leaving some hardcore gamers to Sony in pursuit of the vastly larger casual market.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

More interesting is he recently said MS execs indeed expected PS4 to more powerful, and didn't care.

link?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Microsoft seems to be taking quite a gamble that people simply won't care. Maybe they're right, but they'll have to package it in a way that manages to entice more people in ways other than raw hardware power.

 

[Baconsammy]

That's still not a big surprise, Xbox is just an excuse for MS to rent a TV-box operating system (Xbox Live) that can also play games much more competently than a Nintendo/Apple box. That's their vision and they have no problem leaving some hardcore gamers to Sony in pursuit of the vastly larger casual market.

Given the way the industry is heading, sounds like a pretty smart gamble.

link?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Microsoft seems to be taking quite a gamble that people simply won't care. Maybe they're right, but they'll have to package it in a way that manages to entice more people in ways other than raw hardware power.

Sony already bet that people will care with the Vita. People didn't care. Nintendo bet they wouldnt care. Apple constantly bets they won't care. They both are currently successful. The massive closings this gen seems to indicate that going hardcore is stupid. The Wii U stands in stark contrast though, but perhaps some other factor caused that console to bomb.

 

[i-Lo]

More interesting is he recently said MS execs indeed expected PS4 to more powerful, and didn't care.

I wonder how the fanboys will spin this equalize things once again. How'll aegeis & proelite sleep at night?

Spoiler

Jk

Ms don't care because it is powerful enough to be aligned with their overall strategy.

 

[Syphon Filter]

That's still not a big surprise, Xbox is just an excuse for MS to rent a TV-box operating system (Xbox Live) that can also play games much more competently than a Nintendo/Apple box. That's their vision and they have no problem leaving some hardcore gamers to Sony in pursuit of the vastly larger casual market.

what kind of power gap were talking here?

 

[coldfoot]

Given the way the industry is heading, sounds like a pretty smart gamble.

I'm not so sure. Casuals might outnumber the hardcore but the amount of money they spend on gaming per person is drastically less.