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[Chindogg]

Yeah, I'm a graphics whore. Just look at my avatar.

Supporting 16-bit graphics? What's the matter with me?

You just said that graphics take you out of the immersion, then you talk about your 16bit avatar. Which one is it? At least stick with an argument that makes sense instead of just propping up strawmen to cover your shitty logic.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Nope. If a developer has an idea and the Wii U can't run it they're being held back.

Thats way too broad then. I have an idea of making a game that you can control a human on earth and go anywhere on earth and do anything with photorealistic graphics at 1080p 60 frames per second. Pretty sure even god is held back by that.

 

[Game-Biz]

It's the Game Developers Conference, not a gathering of the UN.

Remember, we're intruding on them here. They have every right to shoot the shit. Hell, I wish every developer was this candid and upfront. Beats the bullshit PC answers we get all the time.

I was making fun of the PC dramaqueens that usually appear when people speak their mind.

Real answer for thread: Nintendo dun goofed. Mark owes nothing but laughter to questions like that. Nintendo/Iwata better have learned its lesson, and produce something next time that can seriously compete with Sony/MS. Really, though, I want them to go 3rd party and make me my Pokemon MMO so I can die happy.

 

[JordanN]

You just said that graphics take you out of the immersion, then you talk about your 16bit avatar. Which one is it? At least stick with an argument that makes sense instead of just propping up strawmen to cover your shitty logic.

I said bad graphics kill immersion.

So basically if you're doing photorealism its a problem. That's a fair argument. However anything else really is a non-issue hardware wise.

Not every game has to be photorealistic to be held back. Try and create Super Mario Sunshine for the N64 and see what happens.

 

[AniHawk]

lol I was being sarcastic. Everyone is bitching about "professional" gatherings and parties being unprofessional I thought I'd go full retard

oh, well good show then.

Oh definitely. But it's not the same as a developer who does have the money but is later forced to scale back on their ambitions.

Nope. If a developer has an idea and the Wii U can't run it they're being held back.

the thing about being a designer is that you're a problem-solver. nobody's idea turns out exactly how they wanted it to. you always run into problems. either you face those problems, and come up with clever solutions, or you may not be that great of a designer to begin with.

 

[Daingurse]

It's the Game Developers Conference, not a gathering of the UN.

Remember, we're intruding on them here. They have every right to shoot the shit. Hell, I wish every developer was this candid and upfront. Beats the bullshit PC answers we get all the time.

Christ' agreed fully! It's like people expect devs to be robots or something. Stop getting offended by stupid bullshit. The Wii-U is next-gen in name only. Who gives a shit? Give me some games I want to play. Then I'll buy your console Nintendo.

 

[Goldmund]

Hardware constraints hold back art.

If there's one thing that kills creativity it's limitations.

 

[Superflat]

limitation can breed creativity though. beyond good & evil was meant to look more realistic at the start, but due to the ps2's lack of power, ancel and the team made it much more stylistic. 10 years later, and i think they made the right choice.

Yep, it's a two way street. You often find great creativity born from necessity. Just look at early arcade games in the 70's and 80's.

On the other hand, games like The Witness, which isn't pushing crazy polygons or aiming to be realistic, benefits from power to make extremely atmospheric environments with crystal clear images unseen in current consoles from a technical level (true 1080, better AA, lighting tech, overall IQ) which will make it that much more of a immersive experience and closer to what the creator envisioned the game looking like.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Soon it may be less time consuming to create threads for game engines that WILL support Wii U

 

[ShdwDrake]

I said bad graphics kill immersion.


Not every game has to be photorealism to be held back. Try and create Super Mario Sunshine for the N64 and see what happens.

Would the water physics (or whatever u wanna call it) even work on the 64?

 

[JordanN]

the thing about being a designer is that you're a problem-solver. nobody's idea turns out exactly how they wanted it to. you always run into problems. either you face those problems, and come up with clever solutions, or you may not be that great of a designer to begin with.

You're right it but with technology that can support your imagination, why would you ever turn your back on it?

This is the issue I'm raising.

Using technology that does its best to match your imagination

Edit: Lame, no colours.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Do people actually genuinely take delight in any potential bad news for the Wii-U? I mean, I guess I expect to see these things, but it makes so little sense. It doesn't need to be as powerful as the new xbox or the PS4 to still produce incredible looking games.

As long as the Wii-U gets great games, which it will, I don't think people really have anything to be concerned about. People had to have known some of the risks involved with the Wii-U's positioning, but it doesn't mean there won't be awesome games.

 

[itsgreen]

Mark Rein shouldn't have laughed out loud like this. This was at a professional gathering and he should have known that his comments would make some people uncomfortable. Totally unacceptable. Yes, Nintendo fans may have been in the minority there, but Rein isn't helping anything by reinforcing the stereotype that Nintendo systems can't play awesome looking games. Shame on Mark Rein and shame on the GDC.

If the Unreal Engine 4 can run on mobile phones, Rein, it can run in the Wii U, you bigoted fuck.

8.5/10

 

[NBtoaster]

So basically if you're doing photorealism its a problem. That's a fair argument. However anything else really is a non-issue hardware wise.

Explain the logic of why games without realistic graphics aren't held back by tech.

 

[AniHawk]

You're right it but with technology that can support your imagination, why you ever turn your back on it.

This is the issue I'm raising.

Using technology that does its best to match your imagination

Edit: Lame, no colours.

because good designers find inspiration anywhere, and should be always challenging themselves to come up with new ideas. this is why i think people might not be giving stuff like kinect a fair chance yet. the people who are usually creative are doing their own thing instead of exploring other options.

imagination isn't just 'oh, i want the cowboy to ride a dinosaur that shoots fire from its nipples!' imagination is also 'oh shit, look at this thing. what can i do with this?'

 

[paully]

Quote:
"Hahaha no." Rein said, with expert comedic timing. The room erupted with laughter.

Oh god that's hilarious hahahaha

The Wii U was dead before this news, but this is obviously a very heavy blow to Nintendo.

I just really don't know what Nintendo was thinking when they made this system, it has been an all-around disaster on almost every level.

I certainly hope they'll recover as no true gamer would want to see them fail.

 

[Chindogg]

I said bad graphics kill immersion.

Another subjective non sequitur. If the aim's to have X amount of details the obviously it going to fail on certain systems. That's not a limit to the imagination, that's based in technical feasibility. Hell this is development 101. Its like saying that your requirements are to make a game that is literally the size of a galaxy with 1000 unique enemies on the screen at once that runs at 1080p 60fps. That's just simply impossible on any form of hardware. You tailor your requirements to what you can work with.

And yes you can have perfectly fine immersion without cutting edge graphics. Have you played Swords and Sworcery or Terraria?

Not every game has to be photorealistic to be held back. Try and create Super Mario Sunshine for the N64 and see what happens.

They could make Sunshine for the N64, it just wouldn't be as expansive or have as nice of lightning or some other compromise due to hardware limitations. Its not as if that game can't exist on N64. The game is very similar to Mario 64 ffs.

Requirements and implementation are there for a reason. Your strawmen just don't stand in this argument.

 

[JordanN]

because good designers find inspiration anywhere, and should be always challenging themselves to come up with new ideas. this is why i think people might not be giving stuff like kinect a fair chance yet. the people who are usually creative are doing their own thing instead of exploring other options.

imagination isn't just 'oh, i want the cowboy to ride a dinosaur that shoots fire from its nipples!' imagination is also 'oh shit, look at this thing. what can i do with this?'

Well then, I can't wait to see all the PS4/720/PC downports on Wii U retain their original form or better because inspirations from hardware limitations will fill in all those gaps.

 

[JordanN]

Another subjective non sequitur. If the aim's to have X amount of details the obviously it going to fail on certain systems. That's not a limit to the imagination, that's based in technical feasibility. Hell this is development 101. Its like saying that your requirements are to make a game that is literally the size of a galaxy with 1000 unique enemies on the screen at once that runs at 1080p 60fps. That's just simply impossible on any form of hardware. You tailor your requirements to what you can work with.

And yes you can have perfectly fine immersion without cutting edge graphics. Have you played Swords and Sworcery or Terraria?

If a game tells me I'm holding a sword but on screen, it's a giant rectangular block full of jaggies, that's not immersion.

They could make Sunshine for the N64, it just wouldn't be as expansive or have as nice of lightning or some other compromise due to hardware limitations. Its not as if that game can't exist on N64. The game is very similar to Mario 64 ffs.

You would be playing a heavily gimped Sunshine. Which is my point. The game could appear in theory, but the results will be a far cry from what the Gamecube allowed it to do.

 

[Game-Biz]

because good designers find inspiration anywhere, and should be always challenging themselves to come up with new ideas. this is why i think people might not be giving stuff like kinect a fair chance yet. the people who are usually creative are doing their own thing instead of exploring other options.

imagination isn't just 'oh, i want the cowboy to ride a dinosaur that shoots fire from its nipples!' imagination is also 'oh shit, look at this thing. what can i do with this?'

This is true. And in many ways limitations can be a useful tool to sort of force people to be creative. Unfortunately though, budgets are so tight nowadays I can't see a way for the vast majority of companies to let "artists" explore and experiment since there's no way to tell if the final product will sell well or not. When your ass is on the line, you either go all out or you play it safe. Too bad most are playing it safe i.e over saturation of shooters, cause they know that for sure they have a higher potential to sell well.

 

[AniHawk]

Well then, I can't wait to see all the PS4/720/PC downports on Wii U retain their original form or better because inspirations from hardware limitations will fill in all those gaps.

this wasn't what i meant. usually games like those are handed down to a studio with very little time and budget. sometimes, they can actually pull off something decent (apparently treyarch did with modern warfare on the wii, while infinity ward was too busy or important to do it themselves). in any case, it's rarely, if ever the same design team, and they find themselves working on someone else's idea.

what we were both talking about was one designer making something using their imagination. and my contention was they wouldn't be challenging, not limiting themselves, if they came up with a neat idea for the gamepad, but felt it also needed more hardware power to pull off.

the only limits out there are the ones that you impose on yourself.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

The argument is just really silly to me because to me everything is infinetely held back then if art is being held back by hardware. Was Leonardo Da Vinci potentially held back when he painted the Mona Lisa? No impossible..the artists made the perfect picture of the Mona Lisa, it is the only one.

It is really weird for people to contrast hardware with the art of a game. There has been increasing easyness of "what looks good" with hardware power and computer proccessing imagery and stuff these days. In almost every media it seems too. There are apps like auto-rap it makes it seems like you made a rap song lol, or instagram when you can take a picture and set it to whatever filter you want. Yet before in music you had to make something truly special and you were doing it long the way, using instruments in a untraditional manner to get unique sound instead of following what everyone else did. In photography you had to work to get what kind of lighting you want. Some photographers would wake up at a certain time or go to a specific area just to get one shot of something. Now a days you just throw a filter on or photoshop the saturation or whatever and boom you got it. Even though all these things may seem cool now, esentially they are already outdated as new technology is being made. You will be listening to beethoven music still 100s of years from now but I doubt you will hear something like katy perry. Same goes for games. Any reason why many games on ps360 already look outdated yet games like yoshi island will never look old? Never compare art to hardware as if its synomonus with each other. Wii U might not be as powerful as PS4720 or compatible with UE4 but undeniably we are going to be seeing some games made for the system with graphics/art we havent seen in the last 7 years even though there was hardware sufficently capable of producing them within that time frame.

 

[JordanN]

this wasn't what i meant. usually games like those are handed down to a studio with very little time and budget. sometimes, they can actually pull off something decent (apparently treyarch did with modern warfare on the wii, while infinity ward was too busy or important to do it themselves). in any case, it's rarely, if ever the same design team, and they find themselves working on someone else's idea.

what we were both talking about was one designer making something using their imagination. and my contention was they wouldn't be challenging, not limiting themselves, if they came up with a neat idea for the gamepad, but felt it also needed more hardware power to pull off.

the only limits out there are the ones that you impose on yourself.

There's still limitations in all of this. If you sacrifice an idea because the power was not there, you were being limited. Adding the gamepad into this only serves as a distraction.

Now, I said if technology exists to meet someone's imagination why would anyone turn it down and you said because of challenge and inspiration.

Again, in all of this ideas are still being dropped. Imaginations are being held back. Even if they find new ideas along the way, old ones were being erased to make room for them.

 

[AniHawk]

There's still limitations in all of this. If you sacrifice an idea because the power was not there, you were being limited. Adding the gamepad into this only serves as a distraction.

Now, I said if technology exists to meet someone's imagination why would anyone turn it down and you said because of challenge and inspiration.

Again, in all of this ideas are still being dropped. Imaginations are being held back. Even if they find new ideas along the way, old ones were being erased to make room for them.

i didn't say people should turn down that technology, just that they should always be looking for inspiration and challenges. good ideas can come from anywhere. if it happens to be kinect or a gamepad or what have you, it shouldn't mean they should turn it down just because it's not a super high end pc as well.

if you sacrifice an idea because the power was not there, then the idea probably wasn't that great in the first place. if you are able to bring that idea to life through problem-solving and compromise, despite less than you would have liked, it was probably an idea strengthened through adversity.

 

[JordanN]

The argument is just really silly to me because to me everything is infinetely held back then if art is being held back by hardware.

Yes, but if you choose to work on weaker hardware, you're only limiting yourself more.

You bring up Leonardo but imagine if if his right hand was cut off, blinded in both eyes, and could only paint using 2 fingers? It's unlikely his Mona Lisa would turn out the same.

This is limitation.

It's one thing to have an imagination that goes beyond hardware. It's another when you're forced to work on hardware weaker than anything else available.

Case and point, look at all the games that will be made for PS4 that maximize the hardware. If a Wii U developer sees something in those games they like that the Wii U can't handle...

they're out of luck. Screwed. Left behind. Destitute. Deserted.

Thinking of ways of how to use the gamepad will never give them the tessellation or high res textures they desire.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Yes, but if you choose to work on weaker hardware, you're only limiting yourself more.

You bring up Leonardo but imagine if if his right hand was cut off, blinded in both eyes, and could only paint using 2 fingers? It's unlikely his Mona Lisa would turn out the same.

This is limitation.

It's one thing to have an imagination that goes beyond hardware. It's another when you're forced to work on hardware weaker than anything else available.

Case and point, look at all the games that will be made for PS4 that maximize the hardware. If a Wii U developer sees something in those games they like that the Wii U can't handle...

they're out of luck. Screwed. Left behind. Destitute. Deserted.

Thinking of ways of how to use the gamepad will never give them the tessellation or high res textures they desire.

Well imagine if he had all the technology as we have today? What would be so special about the mona lisa? Nothing. While it is true da vinci often imagined and even made concepts of things that were just impossible because of technology was limited does not take anything away from what he has made. As those are often more noticed than those things we never saw.

Forced to work on hardware..well an artist is never forced to work I dont think. Do you believe the artist for the overall theme of yoshi island thought of it as work? I think you are getting art and graphics confused as one thing. Why would a Wii U developer be hampered by the thoughts of developing a game on PS4 because of hardware? Why wouldnt they just go work on ps4 then. Isnt that what developers do? Hence retro guys leaving to go work for crytek or Naughty dog I believe and vice versa.

 

[Xun]

Oh god that's hilarious hahahaha

The Wii U was dead before this news, but this is obviously a very heavy blow to Nintendo.

I just really don't know what Nintendo was thinking when they made this system, it has been an all-around disaster on almost every level.

I certainly hope they'll recover as no true gamer would want to see them fail.

Many do to simply see them go third-party.

A stupid wish in my mind however.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Matter of fact I believe we've already seen a game with visuals that we havent even seen before in the past 7 years with the Wonderful 101. Is there even a ps3/360 game that we can even remotely compare it to?

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

"Hahaha no." Rein said, with expert comedic timing. The room erupted with laughter.

Lol. Well, Nintendo made their bed....now it's time to lie in it. I still wonder what they were thinking releasing hardware that is approximately 7 to 8 years old competing against next generation hardare and such an expensive controller. Well, they probably figured since the Wii was successful with last generation graphics, surely this one will succeed also with a few more high profile games, right? Oh well, they are going to have to put out some great first party games in a timely manner and keep the price really competitive. Most of the games that come out on those particular engines I doubt most Nintendo fans would care about anyway to be truthfully honest.

 

[JordanN]

Well imagine if he had all the technology as we have today? What would be so special about the mona lisa? Nothing. While it is true da vinci often imagined and even made concepts of things that were just impossible because of technology was limited does not take anything away from what he has made. As those are often more noticed than those things we never saw.

Forced to work on hardware..well an artist is never forced to work I dont think. Do you believe the artist for the overall theme of yoshi island thought of it as work? I think you are getting art and graphics confused as one thing. Why would a Wii U developer be hampered by the thoughts of developing a game on PS4 because of hardware? Why wouldnt they just go work on ps4 then. Isnt that what developers do? Hence retro guys leaving to go work for crytek or Naughty dog I believe and vice versa.

He wouldn't have to use all of today's technologies. Only the ones that fit his vision.


As for the forced developer, yeah, it's very sketchy. The example mostly applies to first parties and third parties contracted to work for Wii U.

But there's a lesson in all of this though. If not everyone is willing to work on Wii U because of the hardware, it's clear there's no such thing as good enough.

 

[Daingurse]

Matter of fact I believe we've already seen a game with visuals that we havent even seen before in the past 7 years with the Wonderful 101. Is there even a ps3/360 game that we can even remotely compare it to?

The fact that you even have to ask says it all. Nintendo fucked up big time, the Gamepad is not a compelling enough concept in an age of smartphones and tablets. A waste of money that could have been used to give the system a strong definitive bump above the PS360, for the same price the Wii-U currently retails at.

Spoiler

Wonderful 101 does have me intrigued. . .

 

[Always-honest]

it's basicly all a win-win situation:

- Nintendo is forced to come up with original stuff to compete. So true openminded curious gamers win.
- Nintendo will be forced to do their very best at their first party exclusives, so Nintendo fans win
- They won't get any significant ports. So kiddygames fearing insecure bros can keep laughing and pointing.

 

[Kouriozan]

Fish, meet water?
Still funny that Wii U is getting tons of bad press, I guess it was the same for all other Nintendo console launch.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

The fact that you even have to ask says it all. Nintendo fucked up big time, the Gamepad is not a compelling enough concept in an age of smartphones and tablets. A waste of money that could have been used to give the system a strong definitive bump above the PS360, for the same price the Wii-U currently retails at.

Spoiler

Wonderful 101 does have me intrigued. . .

What else would I be comparing it to? We have not seen any ps4 games that visually look like it either.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Mark Rein shouldn't have laughed out loud like this. This was at a professional gathering and he should have known that his comments would make some people uncomfortable. Totally unacceptable. Yes, Nintendo fans may have been in the minority there, but Rein isn't helping anything by reinforcing the stereotype that Nintendo systems can't play awesome looking games. Shame on Mark Rein and shame on the GDC.

If the Unreal Engine 4 can run on mobile phones, Rein, it can run in the Wii U, you bigoted fuck.

Jesus Christ. And with that avatar.

 

[M°°nblade]

i didn't say people should turn down that technology, just that they should always be looking for inspiration and challenges.

Promoting creativity in products is fine.

Creativity to work around technical limitation is something entirely different and should be avoided because it actually hinders the creativity of the end product. That's why making platforms as developer friendly as possible is so important.

 

[Daingurse]

What else would I be comparing it to? We have not seen any ps4 games that visually look like it either.

Ah, I thought you were talking about the technical side of things not aesthetics. Hmm, yeah nothing comes to mind that looks like it.

 

[Windom Earle]

I just think Nintendo needs to stop being so arrogant, they think they can make a console worth buying just because it'll have a few first party Nintendo games from franchises that have been around forever. A Mario or Zelda game isn't (or at least shouldn't be) enough to save the console. I like Mario games too but not so much that they're worth buying a Wii U for. It's ridiculous that people need to buy a Nintendo console, and then also purchase an Xbox/PlayStation for third party games.

This. Do I like the occasional Nintendo game? Sure. Is it enough to buy the console? Hell no. I even sold my 3DS because of this.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Matter of fact I believe we've already seen a game with visuals that we havent even seen before in the past 7 years with the Wonderful 101. Is there even a ps3/360 game that we can even remotely compare it to?

Are you talking about the art style?

Of course new art styles will imerge. Thats just the dev's creativity at play.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Mark Rein shouldn't have laughed out loud like this. This was at a professional gathering and he should have known that his comments would make some people uncomfortable. Totally unacceptable. Yes, Nintendo fans may have been in the minority there, but Rein isn't helping anything by reinforcing the stereotype that Nintendo systems can't play awesome looking games. Shame on Mark Rein and shame on the GDC.

If the Unreal Engine 4 can run on mobile phones, Rein, it can run in the Wii U, you bigoted fuck.

Wait I'm confused. Did Mark Rein laugh at the Wii U or some starving orphan children?

 

[synce]

It seems that somehow, some people got the impression that WiiU vs PS4 will be different than Wii vs PS3. It's not a next-gen console, it is exactly what the Wii was when it first released. The Wii did not have UE3 and it did not have many PS3 ports.

 

[Eteric Rice]

I just think Nintendo needs to stop being so arrogant, they think they can make a console worth buying just because it'll have a few first party Nintendo games from franchises that have been around forever. A Mario or Zelda game isn't (or at least shouldn't be) enough to save the console. I like Mario games too but not so much that they're worth buying a Wii U for. It's ridiculous that people need to buy a Nintendo console, and then also purchase an Xbox/PlayStation for third party games.

Basically this. This is the biggest problem of all.

Nintendo doesn't even have to fully enter the hardware race, just make a console that can easily get ports from the other two.

Hell, this might have been easy had the CPU been up to snuff.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

He wouldn't have to use all of today's technologies. Only the ones that fit his vision.


As for the forced developer, yeah, it's very sketchy. The example mostly applies to first parties and third parties contracted to work for Wii U.

But there's a lesson in all of this though. If not everyone is willing to work on Wii U because of the hardware, it's clear there's no such thing as good enough.

Theres no such thing as good enough yea thats true. Not putting you on the spot specfically but I wonder why arguments like these happen when people know at E3 we will A new 3D mario, possibly retros game, smash in some form. Will these games be considered to be bad looking because of the hardware they're on? or is everyone secretly buying crow sandwhich meal tickets because none of these has been seen yet?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Wait I'm confused. Did Mark Rein laugh at the Wii U or some starving orphan children?

I am pretty sure they would not be as close as angry as this if it were starving orphan children.

Its pretty sad. The guy was just laughing at a console and people are getting so worked up about it like he spat in their face.

He probably was not even laughing at the WiiU but the fact that UE4 will work on a last gen console. Its like the guy standing up and asking is UE4 going to be on ps3 or 360.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Are you talking about the art style?

Of course new art styles will imerge. Thats just the dev's creativity at play.

Yea art style. I dont think W101 is some technical beast with the strand of hair on the super heroes head or anything. Past 7 years would lead one to think otherwise though, the early ps4 titles too.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

The fact that people are arguing over whether Wii U is next-gen or not is enough to conclude that it isn't.

There are too many "Yeah, but"s attached to it to be able to say that Wii U should be said in the same breath as PlayStation 4 and Xbox 720.

 

[JordanN]

Theres no such thing as good enough yea thats true. Not putting you on the spot specfically but I wonder why arguments like these happen when people know at E3 we will A new 3D mario, possibly retros game, smash in some form. Will these games be considered to be bad looking because of the hardware they're on? or is everyone secretly buying crow sandwhich meal tickets because none of these has been seen yet?

I'll be annoyed knowing the graphics could have been better than what the Wii U's hardware shipped with.

 

[Risette]

Well you're playing a game that was made in 2012 and decide that you would like it more now if it were made in 2006, then the only difference is in your head.

The difference is that the game is actually being held back by the hardware because Nintendo is not using what is good for the time. Much different than an older game released on what was good at the time.

Indeed -- it could be said that you are the one futzing things up in your head if you ignore the context of time.

 

[McLovin]

Looks really bad, can't say I'm not surprised. As I've said before once the games come out and the user base increases they might get devs to port their engines. If I were Nintendo I would start releasing 1st party game trailers/teasers. Start building hype.

 

[Rehynn]

The fact that people are arguing over whether Wii U is next-gen or not is enough to conclude that it isn't.

A very bad argument in a debate that is absolutely moot, potentially yielding nothing but another label to be overused for shitting on Nintendo.