Exactly. The term cracker on a box of crackers isn't used with a negative or derogatory meaning, in the same fashion, in my opinion, that the term redskin isn't being used with a negative connotation.
Redskins owner says they'll "Never change the name"
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Exactly. The term cracker on a box of crackers isn't used with a negative or derogatory meaning, in the same fashion, in my opinion, that the term redskin isn't being used with a negative connotation.
The Horror the horror
Banned
Name won't change.
I don't want to point fingers, but The Washington Redskins maintain a strong fanbase in areas where the name, among other slurs, is welcomed and commonly used. If the team was based in Seattle or even New York, the name would have changed.
I don't want to point fingers, but The Washington Redskins maintain a strong fanbase in areas where the name, among other slurs, is welcomed and commonly used. If the team was based in Seattle or even New York, the name would have changed.
This is really hard to have an honest conversation about, because there are so many layers here.
First you've got the team aspect, which means anyone who's a fan will feel like they personally are under attack any time the name is mentioned even as just possibly a teensy bit racist. They'll find any justification to argue that this isn't actually racist and is actually somehow respectful. I don't mind these people so much; team sports make you crazy.
Then you've got the "ZOMG PC run amok" aspect, which means many people will dismiss this as possibly offensive out of hand simply because they feel like it's a victory in some broader battle against the oppressive forces of political correctness. These people seem much more prevalent in this thread than usual for this kind of topic; I'm going to just go ahead and blame Kotaku.
Then you've got social justice warriors, who are sort of the inverse of the "PC run amok" people. These are the people who actually do get off on being offended by shit, and will max out their rage meter no matter the level of the offense. They're far less prevalent than "PC run amok" peeps like to imagine (maxing out the rage meter tends to get you banned from GAF), but they do exist.
And if you can get past all these layers of nonsense, you get to the actual conversation. Is "redskin" an offensive term for American Indians?
My personal take: I've always understood it to be a slur (and not merely in the context of the sports team), and I would certainly never consider using it to refer to American Indians. If I heard someone use it, I wouldn't feel like it was on the same level as some of the racial slurs discussed in this thread, but it would take me aback a little. It's rude, maybe on the level of talking about slanty-eyed Asians.
As far as the sports team, it sounds like many American Indians don't mind the name (though I'd like to see the poll). That's actually quite different from what I expected, and makes me somewhat less annoyed at the owner of the team. Still, I think as a general rule of thumb it's probably best not to name your team after a rude word for a group of people. So it probably ought to be changed anyway. It won't be, because of what I discussed above--the team-sports aspect is mixing with the "PC run amok" aspect which results in a lot of support for keeping the name.
I also want to briefly mention that if you're one of the "PC run amok" people, you should take a moment to pause and consider why you feel that way. Is political correctness actually ruining our society? Or are you just upset because you feel like internet bloggers are unreasonably attacking your favorite hobby? And please do remember to judge cases on an individual basis, rather than categorizing things as "PC therefore bad" or "un-PC therefore good." And yes, that also applies to anyone who does the inverse.
First you've got the team aspect, which means anyone who's a fan will feel like they personally are under attack any time the name is mentioned even as just possibly a teensy bit racist. They'll find any justification to argue that this isn't actually racist and is actually somehow respectful. I don't mind these people so much; team sports make you crazy.
Then you've got the "ZOMG PC run amok" aspect, which means many people will dismiss this as possibly offensive out of hand simply because they feel like it's a victory in some broader battle against the oppressive forces of political correctness. These people seem much more prevalent in this thread than usual for this kind of topic; I'm going to just go ahead and blame Kotaku.
Then you've got social justice warriors, who are sort of the inverse of the "PC run amok" people. These are the people who actually do get off on being offended by shit, and will max out their rage meter no matter the level of the offense. They're far less prevalent than "PC run amok" peeps like to imagine (maxing out the rage meter tends to get you banned from GAF), but they do exist.
And if you can get past all these layers of nonsense, you get to the actual conversation. Is "redskin" an offensive term for American Indians?
My personal take: I've always understood it to be a slur (and not merely in the context of the sports team), and I would certainly never consider using it to refer to American Indians. If I heard someone use it, I wouldn't feel like it was on the same level as some of the racial slurs discussed in this thread, but it would take me aback a little. It's rude, maybe on the level of talking about slanty-eyed Asians.
As far as the sports team, it sounds like many American Indians don't mind the name (though I'd like to see the poll). That's actually quite different from what I expected, and makes me somewhat less annoyed at the owner of the team. Still, I think as a general rule of thumb it's probably best not to name your team after a rude word for a group of people. So it probably ought to be changed anyway. It won't be, because of what I discussed above--the team-sports aspect is mixing with the "PC run amok" aspect which results in a lot of support for keeping the name.
I also want to briefly mention that if you're one of the "PC run amok" people, you should take a moment to pause and consider why you feel that way. Is political correctness actually ruining our society? Or are you just upset because you feel like internet bloggers are unreasonably attacking your favorite hobby? And please do remember to judge cases on an individual basis, rather than categorizing things as "PC therefore bad" or "un-PC therefore good." And yes, that also applies to anyone who does the inverse.
This is really hard to have an honest conversation about, because there are so many layers here.
First you've got the team aspect, which means anyone who's a fan will feel like they personally are under attack any time the name is mentioned even as just possibly a teensy bit racist. They'll find any justification to argue that this isn't actually racist and is actually somehow respectful. I don't mind these people so much; team sports make you crazy.
Then you've got the "ZOMG PC run amok" aspect, which means many people will dismiss this as possibly offensive out of hand simply because they feel like it's a victory in some broader battle against the oppressive forces of political correctness. These people seem much more prevalent in this thread than usual for this kind of topic; I'm going to just go ahead and blame Kotaku.
Then you've got social justice warriors, who are sort of the inverse of the "PC run amok" people. These are the people who actually do get off on being offended by shit, and will max out their rage meter no matter the level of the offense. They're far less prevalent than "PC run amok" peeps like to imagine (maxing out the rage meter tends to get you banned from GAF), but they do exist.
And if you can get past all these layers of nonsense, you get to the actual conversation. Is "redskin" an offensive term for American Indians?
My personal take: I've always understood it to be a slur (and not merely in the context of the sports team), and I would certainly never consider using it to refer to American Indians. If I heard someone use it, I wouldn't feel like it was on the same level as some of the racial slurs discussed in this thread, but it would take me aback a little. It's rude, maybe on the level of talking about slanty-eyed Asians.
As far as the sports team, it sounds like many American Indians don't mind the name (though I'd like to see the poll). That's actually quite different from what I expected, and makes me somewhat less annoyed at the owner of the team. Still, I think as a general rule of thumb it's probably best not to name your team after a rude word for a group of people. So it probably ought to be changed anyway. It won't be, because of what I discussed above--the team-sports aspect is mixing with the "PC run amok" aspect which results in a lot of support for keeping the name.
I also want to briefly mention that if you're one of the "PC run amok" people, you should take a moment to pause and consider why you feel that way. Is political correctness actually ruining our society? Or are you just upset because you feel like internet bloggers are unreasonably attacking your favorite hobby? And please do remember to judge cases on an individual basis, rather than categorizing things as "PC therefore bad" or "un-PC therefore good." And yes, that also applies to anyone who does the inverse.
I think everything you've said is reasonable, but I think "red skins" is less analogous to calling Asians "slanty-eyed" and more analogous to describing them as Oriental or Yellow. I don't think color connotation is a slur per se. It's not culturally acceptable to describe Asians as Yellow, but White and Black people still use color-connotation words to describe themselves which is not seen as being racist (more recently Indian Indian people have started to embrace Brown to describe themselves). This is also something that has changed over the last 30 or so years. So in decades past it more more culturally acceptable to use color connotations (by itself "red skin" is a neutral characteristic).*
I think another problem is that there doesn't seem to be an neutrally agreed upon way of describing the indigenous inhabitants of the area. Indian is a misnomer; American Indian (which seems to be preferred by those people) is also a misnomer; Native American seems pandering to some (this is the word I use). Furthermore, there are few Native Americans left, and those that do exist don't seem to be able to voice their concerns very efficiently.
Personally, as far as racial slurs go "Red Skins" is as mild as it gets. It seems more antiquated and insensitive than full out racist. Instead of changing the names and angering the fan base (full disclosure: I'm one of them) I think the owners should invest in awareness of Native American issues and cultures.
*As far as Oriental, Asians dislike this term, "I'm not a rug", but it refers to direction ("from the East") and is the opposite of Occidental (it's inaccurate though because Asian Americans or Europeans are not Eastern).
MorisUkunRasik
Member
St. John's made the decision to drop the Native American thing back in the 90's.
Managed to keep the Red part, which is cool.
Miami of Ohio dropped the Redskins name in 1997 too.
Vermillion
Banned
*shrug* If the Native Americans don't care, neither do I.
Yeah, protesting against a bunch of drunken football fans heading in and out of the stadium is not the best method of gaining awareness.
Glad at the first part of the article, where people are actively challenging the title legally.
Necromanti
Member
It's clearly not that side that seems to matter, though. I don't see a problem in non-Native Americans aiding the cause, either.
Count Dookkake
Member
lol, because minorities totally have an equal voice in the media.
news flash
being drunk doesn't MAKE you a racist asshole, it just removes your inhibitions about letting your racist assholery show
Umm, it's neither. It's people who have "GO PACKERS" stamped on their brain with every sip for hours.
Hah.
Vermillion
Banned
Eh, something about groups. Only one person needed to say something - the rest will throw the beer and yell about it.
People are generally followers.
I'm surprised that there isn't as big of a cry to stop this practice at Braves games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGuChxSvuh8
As for the Redskins, I wonder how much it has to do with the costs of changing the name to the franchise's brand. How much money would Dan Snyder lose by changing the name and logo? Probably a lot of money. I don't think enough people care about changing the name of a pro sports team to cause enough financial damage to force change.
Fans don't mind going to games and watching players risk their health and safety for their enjoyment. There are no calls from the fans to not see catastrophic head injuries in players. They still line up to see the games. I can't see there ever being a large enough protest to force this change. Especially when as polls suggest most Native Americans are not offended by the Redskins name.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGuChxSvuh8
As for the Redskins, I wonder how much it has to do with the costs of changing the name to the franchise's brand. How much money would Dan Snyder lose by changing the name and logo? Probably a lot of money. I don't think enough people care about changing the name of a pro sports team to cause enough financial damage to force change.
Fans don't mind going to games and watching players risk their health and safety for their enjoyment. There are no calls from the fans to not see catastrophic head injuries in players. They still line up to see the games. I can't see there ever being a large enough protest to force this change. Especially when as polls suggest most Native Americans are not offended by the Redskins name.
sableholic
Member
i'm beginning to think nobody read my posts on the previous page.
Hari Seldon
Member
They should find the tribe local to the DC area (historically) and change to the specific tribe name rather than a generic somewhat mild insult name. Washington Navajo's or something. Maybe get the permission first, even though they probably legally don't have to.
Native American tribes were bad ass warriors and I don't see anything wrong with naming a football team after some aspect of their culture. Similar to Vikings, Spartans, Pirates, etc. Just make it more of an honorific.
Native American tribes were bad ass warriors and I don't see anything wrong with naming a football team after some aspect of their culture. Similar to Vikings, Spartans, Pirates, etc. Just make it more of an honorific.
Well yeah, I'm sure it was fine to call Native Americans "red skins" back then. But today? Not so much.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Confronting and making the people who support this the most aware of the problem sounds like the absolute best method of spreading awareness.
Not when massive quantities alcohol is involved...ever.
They would be better off visiting and polling areas of the community, box office ticketing, pro-shops, and other areas where they could actually get a moment of time and genuine feedback.
Incendiary
Banned
I've grown up in the DC area and the Redskins have been my local team since I was born. While I can see why people would find the name offensive, when I think "Redskins" I think "name of a football team" not "racial slur for Native Americans." I'd never actually use it as an insult/slur or whatever towards a race of people.
That being said, I still think they should change the name. But it shouldn't just be the Redskins. It should be the Indians too, and the Blackhawks, and let's go to college and get rid of the Seminoles too. This is a sticking point for me because I went to William & Mary, a college where the athletic teams were called the Tribe. We got cracked down on because our logo was a W with two feathers on it, and that was apparently too racist and had to be changed. And yet Florida State's logo is fine.
Point is, if you're going to make change, you can't just change one. You've got to go everywhere.
That being said, I still think they should change the name. But it shouldn't just be the Redskins. It should be the Indians too, and the Blackhawks, and let's go to college and get rid of the Seminoles too. This is a sticking point for me because I went to William & Mary, a college where the athletic teams were called the Tribe. We got cracked down on because our logo was a W with two feathers on it, and that was apparently too racist and had to be changed. And yet Florida State's logo is fine.
Point is, if you're going to make change, you can't just change one. You've got to go everywhere.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Ladies and gentlemen of the DC area, your new team name.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Protesting at the game itself would get you the most exposure as well as access to the biggest supporters, thusly making it the best method of raising awareness.
DragonSworne
Banned
Just a question, is something racist inheritantly offensive?
I don't particularly find the name Redskin offensive and haven't met, seen, or know someone who does. I know it is racist, but it's not offensive.
Much like the team name Cleveland Browns and the Indians. Those are racist, but are they offensive?
I don't particularly find the name Redskin offensive and haven't met, seen, or know someone who does. I know it is racist, but it's not offensive.
Much like the team name Cleveland Browns and the Indians. Those are racist, but are they offensive?
...by the results, that sure seems to be working out great for them!
Is Brown University racist?
Give me a break. Everyone's culture gets shit on in this country. There are TV commercials poking fun at just about every race/color/ethnic group there is. TV shows constantly exploit racial stereotypes for humorous effect. Besides all that, the NFL is a private entity and as long ticket sales aren't affected, it's a complete waste of breath to try and change it.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
I grew up in the DC area and live in Arlington. I would have no problem with the name being changed; doesn't make any difference to me. However, I'll freely admit I will not be joining any campaign to change it because, in the same way I don't care if it changes, I also don't care if it doesn't.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Someone wrote an article about it didn't they? An article you read, an article that shut down the argument that natives don't care so we shouldn't. I'd say that's a small success for raising awareness.
This is really hard to have an honest conversation about, because there are so many layers here.
First you've got the team aspect, which means anyone who's a fan will feel like they personally are under attack any time the name is mentioned even as just possibly a teensy bit racist. They'll find any justification to argue that this isn't actually racist and is actually somehow respectful. I don't mind these people so much; team sports make you crazy.
Then you've got the "ZOMG PC run amok" aspect, which means many people will dismiss this as possibly offensive out of hand simply because they feel like it's a victory in some broader battle against the oppressive forces of political correctness. These people seem much more prevalent in this thread than usual for this kind of topic; I'm going to just go ahead and blame Kotaku.
Then you've got social justice warriors, who are sort of the inverse of the "PC run amok" people. These are the people who actually do get off on being offended by shit, and will max out their rage meter no matter the level of the offense. They're far less prevalent than "PC run amok" peeps like to imagine (maxing out the rage meter tends to get you banned from GAF), but they do exist.
And if you can get past all these layers of nonsense, you get to the actual conversation. Is "redskin" an offensive term for American Indians?
My personal take: I've always understood it to be a slur (and not merely in the context of the sports team), and I would certainly never consider using it to refer to American Indians. If I heard someone use it, I wouldn't feel like it was on the same level as some of the racial slurs discussed in this thread, but it would take me aback a little. It's rude, maybe on the level of talking about slanty-eyed Asians.
As far as the sports team, it sounds like many American Indians don't mind the name (though I'd like to see the poll). That's actually quite different from what I expected, and makes me somewhat less annoyed at the owner of the team. Still, I think as a general rule of thumb it's probably best not to name your team after a rude word for a group of people. So it probably ought to be changed anyway. It won't be, because of what I discussed above--the team-sports aspect is mixing with the "PC run amok" aspect which results in a lot of support for keeping the name.
I also want to briefly mention that if you're one of the "PC run amok" people, you should take a moment to pause and consider why you feel that way. Is political correctness actually ruining our society? Or are you just upset because you feel like internet bloggers are unreasonably attacking your favorite hobby? And please do remember to judge cases on an individual basis, rather than categorizing things as "PC therefore bad" or "un-PC therefore good." And yes, that also applies to anyone who does the inverse.
Cyan, I'm pretty sure we had this discussion in CFB gaf, but basically my take here is, any publicity for the Native Americans was good; they are almost a forgotten people in America, and having the issue always brought up keeps them in the media. I think some ot is PC run amok, because people didn't bother to check the polls at all, or research this at all before spouting their opinions, but if they did research it and their opinions didn't change I don't think it's PC run amok. Gaf has a tendency to judge first and doesn't bother to any research at all to validate their judgements.
Sanjuro wasn't lieing about the handouts(in regards to FSU), but I wouldn't put in ... such a dismissive way. The Fighting Sioux of North Dakota issue; was that they willing to work with North Dakota about educating the people about the Sioux people but ND weren't willing to work with them; and the NCAA came down on them. I don't think that's begging for a handout, but using tradition to help teach tradition of a rather mysterious people to alot of Americans.
I can honestly say that I've never heard Redskins used as a derogatory word (besides hearing about the controversy of it over the internet) towards native americans in my entire life. And thats me going up in racist as fuck Georiga. I suppose I could just be out of the loop though. Also probably cause I dont see too many native americans in Georgia either lol
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