Redskins owner says they'll "Never change the name"

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In Australia, redskin is a type of confectionery.

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Seance said:
sure, in the US
hint hint

Here it's short for Japanese. We call ourselves Kiwis, because it's shorter than New Zealanders.
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But we're talking about America right now, we use Jap in France as well as a shorthand word but it is a racist term in America.It's not that hard to understand.

Just because you're from New Zealand or somewhere where "Jap" isn't a slur doesn't mean you can go in America and expect people not to react when you use the word.
 
mr2xxx said:
Redskin used to be a racist term but how much it is now is debatable. Go onto twitter and see how many times redskin gets used as a racist term. Honestly I searched for a bit but couldn't easily find one. Difficult to see it as a problem when over 99.9% of people use it to refer to a team and not as a racist term. Then you have polls that suggest over 70-90% of Native Americans don't have an issue with the name. It is difficult to gauge and much more complicated than lol PC police or redskin=nigger/wetback/chink etc. argument.
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Its racist and associated with the genocide in my mind. They should change it.
 
apocalidiot said:
No one uses the word jigaboo anymore so its not racist right?
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Playing devils advocate here but words can lose their meaning or have it warped, look what happened with "Gay" it went from being an old expression of happiness and delight to homosexuality. So just because a word had negative connotations before a lack of use can lead to it changing completely.

Besides the intent behind the teams name is not to offend but to evoke the native american imagery. Is it tactful? Maybe not, but then again "The Washington Native Americans" doesn't have the same ring to it. Although there may be something in "The Washington Tribal's" that has a neat ring to it.

Anecdotal evidence: I've met exactly 3 people of native american decent, 1 of them was a huge skins fans. He did not care for what the name meant.

I don't care at all for political correctness, it has the potential to make life extremely boring especially since most of what they are after is stuff that isn't done with the intent to be harmful.
 
Notwithstanding the protests of activists, a 2002 poll commissioned by Sports Illustrated found that 75% of those American Indians surveyed had no objection to the Redskins name.[61] The results of the poll have been criticized by American Indian activists due to Sports Illustrated's refusal to provide polling information (i.e. how participants were recruited and contacted, if they were concentrated in one region, if one ethnic group is over represented and the exact wording and order of questions).[62][63] But in 2004, a poll by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania essentially confirmed the prior poll's findings, concluding that 91% of the American Indians surveyed in the 48 states on the mainland USA found the name acceptable and setting out in detail the exact wording of the questions.[64]
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From wiki, do with it what you will.
 
... and Collin Cowheard proceeded to stick his foot in his mouth this morning regarding the issue. Then he went on a union tirade. I'm not sure why I listen to him.
 
Tence said:
Interesting!

For people without time to read

The Boston Redskins were named so in honor of coach William 'Lone Star' Dietz (Native American)
According to Ives Goddard of the Smithsonian, Redskin is a translation of a word used by Native Americans to describe themselves (Redskin and Whiteskin)
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Thanks for summarizing, forgot to come back here and post quotes. I'd love to hear people arguing for the name changes thoughts.

I won't review the evidence in detail because Goddard's paper is short enough and accessible enough that if you are interested you should read it yourself. I'll just summarize it. Goddard shows that the term redskin is a translation from native American languages of a term used by native Americans for themselves. Harjo's claim that it "had its origins in the practice of presenting bloody red skins and scalps as proof of Indian kill for bounty payments" is unsupported by any evidence.⁴ The term entered popular usage via the novels of James Fenimore Cooper. In the early- to mid-nineteenth century the term was neutral, not pejorative, and indeed was often used in contexts in which whites spoke of Indians in positive terms. Goddard concludes:

Cooper's use of redskin as a Native American in-group term was entirely authentic, reflecting both the accurate perception of the Indian self-image and the evolving respect among whites for the Indians' distinct cultural perspective, whatever its prospects. The descent of this word into obloquy is a phenomenon of more recent times.
The response to Goddard's paper is disappointing. Other than reiterating the unsubstantiated and implausible theory that the term owes its origin to scalping, Harjo and others have merely waved their hands, asserting that as Indians they know differently without presenting any evidence whatsoever. A typical example is found in this Native Village article, which quotes Harjo as follows:

I'm very familiar with white men who uphold the judicious speech of white men. Europeans were not using high-minded language. [To them] we were only human when it came to territory, land cessions and whose side you were on.

The only point here that even resembles an argument is the bald assertion that Europeans never spoke of Indians other than disparagingly. This is not true. Evidence to the contrary is explicitly cited by Goddard. What is more disturbing is that Harjo's primary response to Goddard is ad hominem: that as a white man what he says is not credible. Whether he is white, red, or green is of course utterly irrelevant, as thinking people have known since at least the Middle Ages. Goddard presents his evidence in detail, with citations to the original sources. You can evaluate it yourself, and you need not rely on his statements of fact but can, if you are willing to devote some time and effort, check out the sources yourself. Furthermore, without the slightest evidence Harjo imputes to Goddard not merely bias but racism, a charge which, based, as her own words reveal, entirely on racial stereotyping, merely reflects back on herself.

So, there you have it. On the one hand an utterly unsubstantiated and implausible theory advocated by Suzan Harjo, who exhibits no knowledge of the history of English usage of redskin, of American Indian languages, or of the early history of relations between Indians and Europeans. On the other hand a detailed account with numerous explicit citations to original documents by Ives Goddard, who has dedicated his entire life to the study of American Indian languages and the documentation thereof. It is always possible that some new evidence will be brought to bear, but for the present I don't think that there can be any ambiguity as to which is the more credible account.
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And a link to Goddards paper: http://anthropology.si.edu/goddard/redskin.pdf page 4 or 5 is of interest

The
“Old Sachem” Mosquito (French Maringouin) ended his first talk with an invitation:
“je serai flatté que tu Vienne parler toimeme pour avoir pitie De nos femmes et De nos enfans, et si quelques peaux Rouges te font Du mal je Scaurai soutenir tes Interests au peril De ma Vie” (Johnson 1921–1965, 7: 133).
This was translated as:
“I shall be pleased to have you come to speak to me yourself if you pity our women and our children; and, if any redskins do you harm, I shall be able to look out for you even at the peril of my life” (Johnson 1921–1965, 7: 137–138)

...

The French texts were described as “an Exact Copy” of what the chiefs’ French interpreter had written. The first has “si quelques peaux Rouges” translated as “if any redskins,” and the second has “tout les peaux rouges” translated as all the redskins.” The first appearances of redskin in English are thus as literal translations of what would be in standard French Peau-Rouge (in both cases the plural Peaux-Rouges), which is itself in a translation from a dialect of the Miami-Illinois language.2
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Forkball said:
They should change the helmet from this:

redskins-helmet1.jpg


To that alternate they had whenever:

washington-redskins-authentic-pro-line-throwback-full-size-helmet-3350219.jpg
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I actually really like the design of the new helmets. However, the logo here doesn't seem to be the primary offending aspect of the franchise, unlike Chief Wahoo and the Cleveland Indians.
 
Amory said:
I know the Seminole tribe gets a ton from Florida State, but I think they also get to have a say in their logo, mascot, etc to ensure they're not offended by any of it.
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It's sort of like... Chief Osceola and Renegade are the most racist approach to this that the Seminoles are kosher with FSU using. The times went like this:
This mascot was portrayed by a white male member of the gymnastics or circus programs, who performed wild stunts in garish faux-Native American garb. The gymnastics program's sponsorship of Sammy Seminole ended in 1968, but the character was quickly reintroduced.[7]

In the late 1960s Chief Fullabull emerged as a mascot during basketball games. Like Sammy Seminole, he donned cartoonish Native American-themed outfits, and performed clownish stunts. Under protest from Native American groups, the character's name was altered to Chief Wampumstompum, though this did nothing to assuage the concerns of protesters. The character was replaced with a more traditionally dressed figure named Yahola, also known as the "spirit chief". All of these mascots were eventually retired. Officials decided to find a more respectful representative for the school's teams.
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So... basically a string of white guys continue to portray an approved fake version of a historical Seminole chief (who bizarrely was actually of mixed ethnicity himself) rather than an unsanctioned totally fake Seminole chief. But Osceola himself was never really the Chief of the Seminole (more like a general) and was captured by the US military by deception at an apparent peace talk, in violation of treaties, and he died three months later.

I think it's pretty fucked up to use his image and name both erroneously and as though the historical 1800s Seminoles are giving their blessing to the wholly non-native American enterprise that is collegiate football... but I totally concede that I don't really know how I would feel about this if I didn't go to UF.
 
And this is why I hate the PC bullshit. Kinda weird that so many people support the movement, yet some of the first posts I've read in this thread include nigger, jiggaboo, and porchmonkey...
 
Blearth said:
I'd like to think we're past this sort of imagery in 2013.
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Are you fucking kidding me?
Is that a real logo?

As for the name, I'm certainly not a big fan of PC, but this is one of the cases where I can definitely see the offense.

Edit: Although it should obviously be up to the offended party whether or not they decide to be offended.
Notwithstanding the protests of activists, a 2002 poll commissioned by Sports Illustrated found that 75% of those American Indians surveyed had no objection to the Redskins name.[61] The results of the poll have been criticized by American Indian activists due to Sports Illustrated's refusal to provide polling information (i.e. how participants were recruited and contacted, if they were concentrated in one region, if one ethnic group is over represented and the exact wording and order of questions).[62][63] But in 2004, a poll by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania essentially confirmed the prior poll's findings, concluding that 91% of the American Indians surveyed in the 48 states on the mainland USA found the name acceptable and setting out in detail the exact wording of the questions.[64]
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Seems like they're not.
 
youngplaya21 said:
And this is why I hate the PC bullshit. Kinda weird that so many people support the movement, yet some of the first posts I've read in this thread include nigger, jiggaboo, and porchmonkey...
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Sorry, that means you must be starting from the last page. Not a great start. Secondly, what is your point?
 
But a new Associated Press-GfK poll shows that nationally, "Redskins" still enjoys widespread support. Nearly four in five Americans don't think the team should change its name, the survey found. Only 11 percent think it should be changed, while 8 percent weren't sure and 2 percent didn't answer.
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http://hamptonroads.com/2013/05/us-poll-finds-widespread-support-redskins-name

Not that this means its right, but without enough support it will never change.
 
I hate Dan Snyder but am completely, 100% fine like this. They're the Redskins. They'll always be the Redskins. They should always be the Redskins.
 
I really don't think the term is comparable to many other racial slurs. Is the term used in conjunction with a negative message? I don't know if I've ever heard anyone use the term redskin in a derogatory manner. Or at all for that matter.
 
Burt said:
I hate Dan Snyder but am completely, 100% fine like this. They're the Redskins. They'll always be the Redskins. They should always be the Redskins.
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So they should keep the name 'because.'?

KMD said:
I really don't think the term is comparable to many other racial slurs. Is the term used in conjunction with a negative message? I don't know if I've ever heard anyone use the term redskin in a derogatory manner. Or at all for that matter.
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When's the last time you heard Asians referred to as yellow? Would the Washington yellowskins be alright then?
 
MorisUkunRasik said:
So they should keep the name 'because.'?



When's the last time you heard Asians referred to as yellow? Would the Washington yellowskins be alright then?
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You can make an argument for any possible word offending someone, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used, for if that were the case there would be very few words that could be used.

I would venture a guess and say that the number of people who find the term redskin derogatory are very slim. Cracker is a term used to identify white people, so why in the world can I still go into a grocery store, in 2013, and find products with that term brazenly printed on packaging?! I demand justice!
 
KMD said:
I would venture a guess and say that the number of people who find the term redskin derogatory are very slim. Cracker is a term used to identify white people, so why in the world can I still go into a grocery store, in 2013, and find products with that term brazenly printed on packaging?! I demand justice!
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Context matters, especially when you reverse a reference like that.
 
KMD said:
You can make an argument for any possible word offending someone, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used, for if that were the case there would be very few words that could be used.

I would venture a guess and say that the number of people who find the term redskin derogatory are very slim. Cracker is a term used to identify white people, so why in the world can I still go into a grocery store, in 2013, and find products with that term brazenly printed on packaging?! I demand justice!
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False equivalency.

But if you really demand justice, do something about it.

But you don't, so you won't.

So it is a silly example.

Also, if the native population hadn't been decimated, there would probably be a few more people complaining.
 
As a lifelong Skins fan I see both sides and could not really care less either way but since the Bullets were changed to the Wizards it leaves a lot of my friends apprehensive about supporting a name change.
 
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