Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
You can dissolve and prosecute parties if they act as a front for criminal organisations or outright beheave/amount to them.
Clash over Heil Hitler cries in Greek parliament
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You can dissolve and prosecute parties if they act as a front for criminal organisations or outright beheave/amount to them.
And the scenario was very similar. Nazi Germany rose to power out of economic disaster. Maybe we should focus more on curing the cause and not the symptoms.
The problem is the domino effect. Golden Dawn is popular because it preys on the fears of these people. Indoctrinate young kids and teens. Hey 'Stavros' your dad lost his job because of the foreign guy. Aren't you fed up already? We're trying to reclaim Greece, we need you and your friends help etc. Some of their tactics are food and soup donations to those downtrodden or out of work.They don't see Golden Dawn as evil, they see the EU as evil. Banks aren't giving you loans? Blame the elitists in Brussels etc.
It's surprisingly effective propaganda. But the danger lies in this spreading past Greece. If Greece recovers somewhat or if Golden Dawn rises in polls and clout, others will see that it's working or is effective.
I saw the undercover vid of what you're talking about. It's a powerful tool and it indoctrination takes a long lasting hold on the kids then the dark days are just beginning. Chaos will soon follow.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I'm sure they'll be very reasonable and not racist as soon as everyone approaches them that way.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
I agree; the overthrow of the Capitalist system along with the dismantling of Class structures is a necessity. But there's a more immediate problem by the name of Fasciistus Nazilorum that needs eradicating.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8O57J8Hyg
This is true.
Suppressing the voice of people is not going to stop fascism, it's only going to fuel these violent emotions even further.
There needs to be a forum where people are allowed to voice their opinions and then one must counter them with good argumentation. You can't create sustainable policy that has democratic legitimacy if you start bombing one political sect in society - regardless of how misinformed they may be.
CHEEZMO™;58159698 said:
Yes, because communism worked so well for everyone.
How so? Why would it cause World War 3?
Or..they decouple and devalue their currency, default on their obligations and price their way back into the market. It'll be painful for a few months as they readjust to a new currency which will be worth dick all but at least they can export their way back to growth.
With their economy improving, people will forget about GD.
At least, that's what I'm hoping happens...
Because the civilized world doesn't agree with killing immigrants and turning them into 'soap'.
Little Old Man
Member
I love GAF armchair politics posts like this.
Are you purposely being facetious or what? They're not starting gas chambers in Athens. They are a bunch of tryhard, ultranationalists who are exploiting a frustrated populace.
Even if they come into power, it'll be no different than what we see in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea everyday.
This isn't the 1940's anymore. No one is going to intervene in Greece, because it doesn't benefit them. And Greece is not Germany, which at the time was a world superpower/global power.
Lagspike_exe
Member
Rise of the Golden Dawn is a reaction to all that has been happening in the Greece since 2008. They wouldn't be a choice for an absolute majority of people in normal cicrumstances. Unfortunately, their rise could trigger new waves of destabilization which is the last thing Greece needs right now.
CyclopsRock
Member
I wish I lived in a country where Cheezmo and Kurtofan were the sole arbiters of democracy.
Freezie KO
Banned
Very tough situation. I don't know how strong the current Greek government is compared to Weimar Germany, but I think we've learned that Fascism isn't contained easily.
I can't even begin to offer a suggestion considering the economic clusterfuck. I can only shake my head at the easy rise of Golden Dawn.
I can't even begin to offer a suggestion considering the economic clusterfuck. I can only shake my head at the easy rise of Golden Dawn.
I'm still trying to figure out who Heil Hitler is.
lol, yah they would never resort to violence.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The name "Golden Dawn" sounds like a cult straight out of a medieval fantasy story.
Oh geez, this got me good.
Edit: 'Plomaritis, who was not elected to parliament, also threatened to “make lamps from their skins.”'
Holy fuck this guy is crazy lol.
boiled goose
good with gravy
banning free speech is not a good answer.
The answer is education, loud public dissent, and counter argumentation with actual reasons.
You want people to disagree with bad, illogical, or false ideas for good reasons, so that you always have a good foundation for reaching conclusions.
of course if they are involved in criminal activities such as violence or extortion, then proper actions should be taken against them.
The answer is education, loud public dissent, and counter argumentation with actual reasons.
You want people to disagree with bad, illogical, or false ideas for good reasons, so that you always have a good foundation for reaching conclusions.
of course if they are involved in criminal activities such as violence or extortion, then proper actions should be taken against them.
Lagspike_exe
Member
It's a very good comparison. Golden Dawn was a marginal party pre-bailout. The Greek public opinnion has been moving steadily to the extremes ever since. Golden Dawn as a far right party and Syriza as a party more strongly leftist than PASOK have reaped the gains from the chaos.
Desperate_Gamer
Banned
There are also stupid older people who forget history and are now nostalgic regarding the military junta. They probably outnumber the younger people.
Desperate_Gamer
Banned
I'm not sure history supports this line of action during periods of crisis.
It's an obvious and equally bland and flawed comparison that leads to wrong conclusions but go on.
Lagspike_exe
Member
And could you explain on why is it flawed and wrong? An economic crisis led to rise of extremist parties, rather similar to what happened in Germany post-WW1. Could you elaborate on your position and why do you think I'm wrong?
The Weimar Republic had almost zero democratic tradition to back it up. In huge parts the country was more akin to a feudal state and a big part of the people felt threatened by "modern times" that were manifesting especially in Berlin, which was basically the Las Vegas of Europe. The aristoctratic and bourgeois elites had no trust in the parliament. The parliament was also not functional because there were too many parties seated ("Parteienzersplittung"). Moreover, Germany wasn't only in an economic crisis but had just lost a devastating war. That had also an impact on Germany's national identity which to this day is very fragile anyway compared to other nation states. You know Germany hasn't even existed until 1871.
And these are only the obvious differences. Call me when the Greek establishment embraces Golden Dawn in an attempt to overthrow democracy. Then you have a solid point.
And these are only the obvious differences. Call me when the Greek establishment embraces Golden Dawn in an attempt to overthrow democracy. Then you have a solid point.
Austria and Germany to an extent have banned fascist parties from participating in elections. There is no slippery slope. Just ban fascists and be done with it. Violence and hate deserve no party.
Then don't vote for them.
Mattlikewhoa
Member
This part killed me as well... And I agree that people should check out the Vice piece that they had recently done.
Banning parties based on their actions as individuals and organization rather than their ideologies seems like a far more consistent and safe approach, me thinks.
oneils
Member
All sorts of speech is banned.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Isn't it better to have these guys out in the open than banning them? This way people openly declare themselves as fascist. You can count them and have a barometer of their popularity.
Let's see how long that ban lasts when Germany is in Greece's position. There is a reason Golden Dawn is winning hearts and minds in Greece.
How can you ban a party that is getting anywhere between 5%-20% of the vote, and has 18 members now in the Greek parliament?
It's quite disgusting the tactics they are using to get votes or to appeal to the people. They are pretending to be strong and caring for downtrodden Greeks, providing free food only to Greeks, portraying the EU/Germany as evil and the reason their country has record levels of unemployment and the high interest rates and austerity measures being put in place etc.
Officially, they haven't done anything wrong, this is the problem and where the folks are making the slippery slope arguments.
MichaelCorleone
Banned
Heil a long dead douchebag that would have murked them? Idiots it would make more sense logically to Heil Satan....
reggieandTFE
Member
You do realize that Greece doesn't necessarily have great 'democratic' traditions either? The CIA helped depose a democratically government 40 years ago and installed a puppet government.
zero shift
Banned
Was Greece one of the countries that Hitler planned to kill half the population and make the other half his slaves?
Anyway I find it amusing that some of Greek-Gaf still denies that this party has Neo-Nazi ties.
This true. Being honest though I'm not sure how much of bad thing this will be in the long run. I view these destabilizations as creative destruction. Sometimes when its all said and done you get the parties and politics found in America, United Kingdom, and Sweden. Other times you get parties and politics that followed much of Eastern Europe or Spain. Its a double edged sword but its necessary. Sometimes the current establishment needs to be destabilized. Otherwise you can become, at best, the next Japan or fall all the way down to the levels of Haiti or Nicaragua.
Anyway I find it amusing that some of Greek-Gaf still denies that this party has Neo-Nazi ties.
This true. Being honest though I'm not sure how much of bad thing this will be in the long run. I view these destabilizations as creative destruction. Sometimes when its all said and done you get the parties and politics found in America, United Kingdom, and Sweden. Other times you get parties and politics that followed much of Eastern Europe or Spain. Its a double edged sword but its necessary. Sometimes the current establishment needs to be destabilized. Otherwise you can become, at best, the next Japan or fall all the way down to the levels of Haiti or Nicaragua.
I don't think you can't use an American example and apply it to other countries.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
That´s so fucking dumb.
You are so full of shit. It´s the people who chose those politician. I always see you in these kind of threads criticizing the US because it does not support Hamas and you say that the US only supports democracy when it´s good for it. You are doing the same dammed thing. People can chose whoever they want to govern, it´s not like Greece will attack it neighbors or anything. And saying that people here Nazi sympathizers because people don´t endorse violence and your shit argument is the same as what the violent nazi party do in Greece.CHEEZMO™;58157208 said:
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
CHEEZMO;58158996 said:
Hey guys lets make false equivalency and kill anyone who oppose our ideas.
GoddyofAus
Banned
When your country is so infested with idiots that a party like Golden Dawn can have 18 representatives elected in a democratic parliament in the 2000's, you know it is un-salvagable. When the shit hits the fan in Greece, and it will, to take a line from the Joker, they will eat each other.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Sorry I want racial minorities, immigrants, sexual and gender minorities and anyone who's just a bit too forrin-lookin' be protected from violence and discrimination. And if people want to elect Nazis into power - people who will restrict the democratic process and free speech along with other political freedoms faaaar more than anyone simply not wanting fucking Nazis in power ever would - then I guess we should just let them.
Then when the blackshirts are roaming the streets beating the shit out of slightly-too-brown people I guess we could go wave some signs at them. That'll work.
Oh wait.. no you'll get your head caved in by some thugs and then the fascist police will lock you up and torture you for fun and you won't be able to do anything about it because you wont be able to vote them out.
But hey at least you'll live in a free and democratic socie- oh.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
CHEEZMO;58214322 said:
Oh, let´s kill them all, as if violence solves the issue. What about all the people who voted for them, should they also die? That´s a dumb logic if i have ever read one. If you think the EU/world will allow the nazis massacre people you are out of your mind. Killing the nazis now will make more people vote the extreme parties because they see it as attack on them etc....
How about put them in jail like the way society works. But no apparently only killing works.
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