Clash over Heil Hitler cries in Greek parliament
- Thread starter Lonely1
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vas_a_morir
Banned
Canada?
BruiserBear
Banned
Why does it seem like I hear a story daily about some European praising Hitler, or giving the Hitler salute, or praising Nazism?
How could people have nostalgia for any of that?
How could people have nostalgia for any of that?
Flatline
Banned
zero shift
Banned
CHEEZMO, if you agree that certain parties should be illegal then where do you draw the line? Define "destructive to society"? Many would argue that a party of anarchists or communists would be "destructive to society" if elected. Would you agree if say KKE was outlawed as well? Especially considering the human rights violation during their attempted coup some decades back?
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
CHEEZMO;58216348 said:
You know damn well that killing them will most definitely have the opposite effect and there will be plenty of new recruit to their cause, especially when they have this big public support.
gutter_trash
Banned
woah there, that's over-simplistic definition. Perhaps on economics, yeah but fascism is also more than just that
Fascism also promotes ubber nationalism, whether it be culturally, ethnically, linguistically over minorities. Fascism also promotes strength and might over the weak of society.
When Republicans spout out ''Real Americans'' ''un-American'' and ''Small town values'' those are shades of ubber-nationalism that are hallmark traits of fascism.
When the Ultra-Right spout shit like being against Universal Healthcare, that is trait of economic fascism, letting corporations dictate the health of citizens for profit over the state.
Just like when Quebec nationalists spout ethnic-linguistic purity nonsense and trash Canada's multiculturalism nature. That's an ubber-nationlistic trait of fascism
zero shift
Banned
Hitler is seen by some as the rebirth of the days Ancient Rome. A nation of the best of the best. The seed of right wingism doesn't spawn from the idea of free markets or "liberty". Right wingism spawns from the idea of the survival of the fittest. If you aren't affluent it isn't because of your environment or the fact that you don't have access to money or education, its because you are stupid and lazy and therefore you must suffer. American rightism focuses on CEOs and millionaires as being the affluent, for some countries like Greece, its race.
Ironically the people who support these parties aren't made up of successful people in the highrises but more so downtrodden people in shitty situations. To them it isn't the system that failed them but leeches sucking out the wealth and opportunities out of society. In America those people are seen as ghetto black people and ghetto hispanics. In Greece they are seen as lazy immigrants. If those people were to leave then, according to those parties, the nations would prosper.
The punchline to this? These nations never really existed. Rome was horrifically mismanaged and really only continued to succeed because the competition was laughable. You can say the same about the assumptions of the right wing in America and Greece as well. Some Americans believe that if you somehow shipped all of the black people to Africa and hispanics to Mexico, the nation would essentially have no poverty and a top end economy. What they forget is that there are plenty of nearly pure white European nations that have higher poverty rates than America does. Hell even if you look at those "model minority Asians" Japan has a higher poverty rate than America despite having stronger social safety nets and a more educated populace. Same thing with Greece. The reality is that these parties don't want to accept that the problems in their countries don't result due to lazy people but much more likely to the systems in place. In America is the lack focus on the working class and poor with the rich taking enormous amounts of wealth. In Greece its being bullied by external nations and a highly dysfunctional bureaucracy, which to be fair Golden Dawn portrays to fix, but it isn't going to be fixed by targeting those dirty immigrants.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Well I'm an Anarchist-leaning Communist so yeah. I don't know enough about the KKE or their background to comment.
Would you join a political party if you knew people were out to kick the shit out of you for it? Would you attend their rallies and street marches (that are by their very nature and intent intimidating to the minorities they oppose) if you knew they were regularly broken up by Antifas?
Like I said before, this is basically the "your intolerance of my intolerance is intolerance" bullshit magnified to fucking actual factual NAZIS! Nazis who act on their rhetoric and assault and extort and intimidate people (who often have no means of immediate defence and no means to pursue justice thanks to the complicit police). Are these people who should get their way simply because some people vote for them?
Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense.
Flatline
Banned
And many would be talking out of their ass. There have been many peaceful anarchist communities the previous century and none of them were even comparable with the misery, hate and destruction fascism has been proven to bring. I'm really divided on the issue of banning neonazism but if there was ever an ideology that requires these extreme measures it would fascism and authoritarianism.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
First they came for the anti-Semites,
Good, fuck Nazi scum
Then they came for the Racists
Fuck those racist pieces of shit
Then they came for the ultra-Nationalists
But I did not speak out, because ultra-Nationalists are dangerous cunts
Then things were quite a bit better, actually.
Good, fuck Nazi scum
Then they came for the Racists
Fuck those racist pieces of shit
Then they came for the ultra-Nationalists
But I did not speak out, because ultra-Nationalists are dangerous cunts
Then things were quite a bit better, actually.
zero shift
Banned
CHEEZMO;58218098 said:
If the government starts targeting radical groups do you really think that you and your fellow far-leftists will remain untouched?
While I wouldn't go as far as CHEEZMO™ with the golden shower people, I'd say his method is better than simply sitting all day discussing what could be done and in the end doing nothing.
Some would argue that wouldn't be a great loss...
Some would argue that wouldn't be a great loss...
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Omegasquash
Member
CHEEZMO;58218098 said:
Let's be friends, Cheezmo.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
No, i would not join, but the Greek populace is desperate, that´s why they have voted them in the first place. You are comparing people who live in prosperity and safety to people who live in despair and economic meltdown. What i said is supported by facts all over the world.CHEEZMO;58217468 said:
Of course they should not get their way, and not all the police support them, but to say just kill them is the only solution would have the opposite effect as it´s proven world wide.
It´s funny how you avoided answering my question when i asked if you wanted to kill their supporters as well.
No it´s not, and your logic belongs in the dark ages not in in a modern society.
Nope. They are pretty much the same shit. The same sort of people divided into different sides. No different from football thugs at the core. Yoof with a taste for violence.
No wait - much worse than football hooligans, at least they don't make excuses for their violence, since they admit they just do it for fun.
edit: and i can't roll my eyes enough when they start to spout nonsensical bullshit like "we tolerate everything except intolerance". Simply vomit inducing.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Proven where?
No. Although they shouldn't be exempt from few slaps if they attend rallies/marches etc. The people on the bottom rung often turn to Fascism as a scapegoat for problems. It gives them things to blame that can be "fixed" easily and appeal to baser human fears of the Other and things that are different. It also gives people a feeling of power and strength. A large-scale intensive education programme would be a good way to deal with these sorts of people, especially before they fall too far down the hole.
As for the more typical GD street thug? Boots to the face. See how willing they are to beat up some Turk shopkeepers when the last time they tried it they lost some teeth.
I'm not saying immediately line everyone up against a wall and shoot them. Just that violence is not only a legitimate means of combating Fascism, but one of the few effective ways of doing so. Like I said, Fascism relies on a projection and image of strength and superiority. What better way to tear down this illusion than humiliating them and directly, physically showing it to be false.
This also has the effect of alleviate the intimidation and fear the targeted minority groups will be subjected to - they know they have people willing to protect them.
Smashing Fascism is not an anti-social crime, it is a social duty.
zero shift
Banned
Which is exactly my point.
Flatline
Banned
Of course, because being an authoritarian, warmongering and racist piece of shit is the same as trying to oppose those any means necessary. Comparing political ideology to football thugs is also up there in the list of top horrible false equivalences btw.
Heck if they're really antifas, they'd disband once the nazis are out of the picture anyway.
Personnally I don't think there can be said anything of nazi wannabees that's to harsh or a punishment that's too cruel for them.
I'd be damned if I take part in it though, but if someone want to do it, knock yourself out!
I don't get antifa violence.
You're on the right side, you got all the arguments. AND you are almost always part of the majority. If you need to attack physically, it's either a personal failure or a sign of an underlying violent streak.
The only thing you do is validating their "fight".
You're on the right side, you got all the arguments. AND you are almost always part of the majority. If you need to attack physically, it's either a personal failure or a sign of an underlying violent streak.
The only thing you do is validating their "fight".
GoddyofAus
Banned
So basically, a real life Galactic Empire.
Flatline
Banned
Sorry but just being the majority doesn't work with fascism. It's not a democratic movement thus it doesn't need the approval of society and it will use any manipulative or violent method possible to grab power since it is inherently immoral. Plus general apathy within society seems to feed it instead of acting as a neutral force.
The Galactic Empire was largely based on real life fascist movements, so yes?
From my experience normal people in stable countries see all forms of violence as an expression of authoritarianism. At least in Sweden, both sides are made up of thugs that throw rationality and any form of democratic thought out of the window.
GoddyofAus
Banned
Exactly, so it's an ideology that is so comically evil that it can be molded into this guy:
Yeah huh that's a bit more complicated.
People here saw the far left as the ones who helped during the occupation and enjoy a much better standing from society in general unlike the far right who are basically traitors who would sell their mothers to nazi germany.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Yes, this. I've actually heard that political thoughts should not be thought of as lines but circles, since the far, far right and left wings loop around and end up looking very similar. A lot of people think of the DPRK as a communist country, and it was for a long time. But these days it is a military-dominated, totalitarian government that trades on racist nationalism. In other words, it's something closer to what we would think of as an ultra-right wing fascist nation.
you obviously have no clue what the antifa is
Bunch of yoofs who get their kicks on political violence. Could just as well have ended up as one of the neo-nazi yoofs, or a football thug, or a militant animal activist - just depends on what group gets hold of them first.
And a fascist who calls himself anti-fascist is still a fascist.
And mind you, i did say the football crowd was better since they didn't try to excuse their saturday night kicks with political ideology.
zero shift
Banned
I actually recall some North Korean expert stating that North Korea today represents Nazi Germany more so than the Soviet Union.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Excessively militaristic, irredentist, ultra-Nationalist, outside threat that is constantly looking to destroy you yet you can simultaneously destroy. Add in that "cleanest race" shit and well there you go.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Everywhere from the Palestinian territories where most Palestinians rallied around Hamas, to Hezbollah were most Lebanese rallied against Israel in 2006, to the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt where the more they were persecuted the more followers they got. Same with he beginning of Christianity and Islam.CHEEZMO;58220126 said:
As long those who participate in marches and rallies don´t hurt others, they should not be touched. Freedom of speech is tested when someone you severely don´t agree with have the same right to express their opinion as you. What you are proposing is making a police state against certain individual or organisations that don´t agree with you. People who break the law should be punished by the law. Yeah, i understand that in Greece right now the law might be absent in places but that does not justify vigilante behavior by the people who have not lost reason yet.
Education works, but you have also to understand the circumstance of why people voted that way. It was a desperate call from desperate people. I am pretty sure that the majority who voted for the Nazis would have never voted for them unless they were extremely desperate and thought that it´s the only way out.
Look, i am not saying that one should not fight fascism even physically, but that´s only if the government is fascist or about to be taken by fascists. The ones in Greece are still minority and can´t possibly posses a big threat. Of course if they start a civil war they should be put down. You can smash fascism by educating people in peaceful time and show them the horrors of fascism. Now people are desperate and will not take kindly into seeing the people who they voted for getting killed. That´s how you radicalize people.
Minority should be protected by the government, unfortunately the government is not functioning well right now.
Educating people is much more effective than killing the ones people voted for and radicalizing them.
Angry Fork
Member
I'm with Cheezmo, fascism shouldn't be tolerated. The comparisons with the far left are not equal as socialist/communist parties don't advocate/support exterminating races.
The left has very much shifted to the anarchist side since the fall of the Soviet Union, and so their platform is now most often more freedom, more rights, more opportunity and so on. We may still hate bourgeois rich cunts but money/property isn't a race, gender, or sexual orientation. There's no comparison with the Hitler parties.
The left has very much shifted to the anarchist side since the fall of the Soviet Union, and so their platform is now most often more freedom, more rights, more opportunity and so on. We may still hate bourgeois rich cunts but money/property isn't a race, gender, or sexual orientation. There's no comparison with the Hitler parties.
CHEEZMO;58220126 said:
WTF at the bolded? Are the left this crazy in all countries ?
A guy i knew from childhood was a nazi in his teens. One night he was out partying and on his way home he got surrounded by a bunch (15) of people that started screming that he was a nazi.
They then proceeded to beat him to death with boards, jumping on his face and neck, stabbing him in the back so hard that the blade of the knife breaks, and then they finished it off by cutting his throat with whats left of the knife.
Is it this kind of "Boots to the face" that you are talking about CHEEZMO? Or do you think that you have some special ability to know how much of a beating a HUMAN can take? I guarantee you that you do not.
And you know what? I would give my life defending ANY human, left or right, lying on the ground being beaten on by THUGS.
You do not simply "Boots to the face" anyone if you would like to call yourself civilized.
Violence is equally as bad when coming from the left.
There is a saying here in sweden which i will translate "Where the arguments run out, the fists come in". So are you out of arguments?
The left is often described as intellectual. Then fucking be intellectual and not some goon that thinks it is ok to kill just because you think they cant be argued with.
Still, in the Nordic countries the extreme far leftists have far more in common with the extreme rightists, than they have with the average person. I have zero respect for both sides.
Angry Fork
Member
Can you explain further? What would you say are the things they hold in common?
I didn't read all the thread, I hope it's been already mentioned.
There's no dispute over who shouted the "Heil Hitler" thing, a member of leftist party SYRIZA did (Pantzas) to mock them.
The dispute lasted for less than half a day during which media jumped to accuse Golden Dawn with using the phrase, but Pantzas admitted so himself.
The whole episode was actually ridiculous and vindicated Golden Dawn, and one is to either accept the left politicians are complete morons in their boosting GD through such and many similar antics, or that it's in their best interest to boost them for the reason of creating a hated enemy, or whatever else (there are many, many theories about GD).
(I feel I need to stress yet again that I hate GD for various reasons).
Don't trust most news about Greece. For example German media are now almost worshiping and glorifying Greek prime minister Samaras for doing such a good job, Bild and Welt being the latest I remember, while here businesses are closing, the UN just declared that TROIKA measures are reducing human rights and rights to healthcare, unemployment is rising to unreal levels, his party's popularity (by mainstream media gallops which are at best suspect), is at 20%, wages are 1/2 what they were, etc, etc.
He is being presented as a hero for squelching protests, crushing strikes by using a law in effect from our military junta that allows him to draft all who strike or imprison them (so far dock workers, public transport workers, and now teachers), and essentially for implemented the harshest "austerity" ever seen, while agreeing to everything the EU asks.
So we live through all this, while everyday seeing foreign media loving him, talking about GD as if this is the most important issue about Greeks... it's like some dystopian sci-fi world becoming a reality.
EDIT: Also, the OP is completely wrong. The parliament president said the GD member insulted others before he did, just for calling opposition leader Alexis Tsipras "mr. Alexis" (in English), and calling the discussed law as "soup" (a phrase meaning something like "streamlined" I guess).
After being goaded by the parliament's president did he use the other phrases.
Actually in this particular case GD was 100% in the right at first, that's why it was so ridiculous.
Please add at least part of this to the OP, it's completely wrong and sensationalist.
There's no dispute over who shouted the "Heil Hitler" thing, a member of leftist party SYRIZA did (Pantzas) to mock them.
The dispute lasted for less than half a day during which media jumped to accuse Golden Dawn with using the phrase, but Pantzas admitted so himself.
The whole episode was actually ridiculous and vindicated Golden Dawn, and one is to either accept the left politicians are complete morons in their boosting GD through such and many similar antics, or that it's in their best interest to boost them for the reason of creating a hated enemy, or whatever else (there are many, many theories about GD).
(I feel I need to stress yet again that I hate GD for various reasons).
Don't trust most news about Greece. For example German media are now almost worshiping and glorifying Greek prime minister Samaras for doing such a good job, Bild and Welt being the latest I remember, while here businesses are closing, the UN just declared that TROIKA measures are reducing human rights and rights to healthcare, unemployment is rising to unreal levels, his party's popularity (by mainstream media gallops which are at best suspect), is at 20%, wages are 1/2 what they were, etc, etc.
He is being presented as a hero for squelching protests, crushing strikes by using a law in effect from our military junta that allows him to draft all who strike or imprison them (so far dock workers, public transport workers, and now teachers), and essentially for implemented the harshest "austerity" ever seen, while agreeing to everything the EU asks.
So we live through all this, while everyday seeing foreign media loving him, talking about GD as if this is the most important issue about Greeks... it's like some dystopian sci-fi world becoming a reality.
EDIT: Also, the OP is completely wrong. The parliament president said the GD member insulted others before he did, just for calling opposition leader Alexis Tsipras "mr. Alexis" (in English), and calling the discussed law as "soup" (a phrase meaning something like "streamlined" I guess).
After being goaded by the parliament's president did he use the other phrases.
Actually in this particular case GD was 100% in the right at first, that's why it was so ridiculous.
Please add at least part of this to the OP, it's completely wrong and sensationalist.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Fascism is inherently violent, oppressive and anti-democratic. It is these things by it's very nature. They are the pillars that hold it up. If you march in support of Fascism you march in support of these things.
Freedom of speech cannot be allowed to apply to Fascism. Doing so gives it a voice and lets people hear its call. If you support the legitimisation of Fascist speech you allow Fascism to be legitimised in the process.
Yes, education works but only if you get in early enough. This also goes for those who vote for such parties as a protest. However, there is always a large contingent of true believers in these groups. The hardcore and the politicians and leaders themselves. These are the ones whom action must be carried out against. Break up their rallies and marches, vandalise their offices, attack and humiliate their leaders. Anything and everything to remove their illusion of strength and power.
The fact that the GD is still in the minority is precisely why action must take place. It must be smashed, destroyed, driven underground, strangled in its cradle wherever itt shows its ugly head. Its legitimisation must not be allowed. When it is, you see what is happening across Europe with the rise of all these extreme-right and ultra-Nationalist parties.
Don't want that to happen? Don't legitimise it. Don't let people think it's "okay" to like these things.
Minorities should absolutely be protected by the government. This extends to the intimidation of said minority groups by Fascist actors, which is precisely why Fascism must be allowed No Platform.
They are both anti-democratic and propose the use of violence, which I see as expressions of extreme authoritarianism regardless of your label, humans are better than that.
On top of that they are irrational and destructive, they are just the worst form of egoists.
There's immense misinformation and misunderstanding about Golden Dawn. It's sensationalist, it generates 'clicks', and every damn site and blog will post everything about them while ignoring small "details" like the constant drafting of all who strike in Greece, arresting of all who protest, the slowly non-existent healthcare, and all that.
Most GD members are illiterate thugs, members of small mobster circles, bouncers, etc.
Greek people are not voting them for "scapegoating" problems away. Nor do they support Nazism.
1. GD is not presented as a Nazi party. While its roots are certainly Nazi related, and many old members admire Nazi 'philosophy', the way those who vote for them see them is as ultra-nationalistic, willing to purge the immensely hated and corrupt political system, punish them and confiscate their properties.
They didn't get elected on "Heil Hitler". They got elected on saying they will throw the benches on the heads of anyone who dares vote for another memorandum (they didn't of course), saying they will purge the public sector of komatoskila (political party loyalist parasites), drag all politicians to trials, etc.
2. People are not hating immigrants (those who do that is) for the economic situation. Well, perhaps some do, but these are a minority.
The problem with immigrants (and that part is real) is that Greece is a gateway for Africa and Asia. There are more than 2 million illegal immigrants in a country with a population of 10 million.
Most of these are desperate and will resort to violent crimes to survive. Stories about old people raped, burned in their houses, people killed in the streets, endless burglaries, are daily, and most are true.
People are scared and want the 'old' Greece back, so they vote for those who say "We will drive the illegal immigrants away". Their official party line is that they will do so legally and peacefully.
Actually, their official statements, are things 90% of Greeks will agree with. The thing is knowing where they really come from, what type of people they really are, and of course some of the things they do (or don't do).
Most GD members are illiterate thugs, members of small mobster circles, bouncers, etc.
Greek people are not voting them for "scapegoating" problems away. Nor do they support Nazism.
1. GD is not presented as a Nazi party. While its roots are certainly Nazi related, and many old members admire Nazi 'philosophy', the way those who vote for them see them is as ultra-nationalistic, willing to purge the immensely hated and corrupt political system, punish them and confiscate their properties.
They didn't get elected on "Heil Hitler". They got elected on saying they will throw the benches on the heads of anyone who dares vote for another memorandum (they didn't of course), saying they will purge the public sector of komatoskila (political party loyalist parasites), drag all politicians to trials, etc.
2. People are not hating immigrants (those who do that is) for the economic situation. Well, perhaps some do, but these are a minority.
The problem with immigrants (and that part is real) is that Greece is a gateway for Africa and Asia. There are more than 2 million illegal immigrants in a country with a population of 10 million.
Most of these are desperate and will resort to violent crimes to survive. Stories about old people raped, burned in their houses, people killed in the streets, endless burglaries, are daily, and most are true.
People are scared and want the 'old' Greece back, so they vote for those who say "We will drive the illegal immigrants away". Their official party line is that they will do so legally and peacefully.
Actually, their official statements, are things 90% of Greeks will agree with. The thing is knowing where they really come from, what type of people they really are, and of course some of the things they do (or don't do).
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
I am done with this. You don´t pick and choose who´s allowed to free speech and who´s not.
Angry Fork
Member
There are plenty of authoritarian measures taken in 'free' democracies. Taxes can be argued to be authoritarian but we recognize it's a good thing because it helps everyone and creates an actual society instead of a place of warlords and serfs. The community need overcomes individual gain.
So the question becomes how much authority is justified, and what kind of freedoms are relevant. The left says freedom in the workplace, education and healthcare for all yes, freedom to accumulate individual wealth at the expense of others, not so much. But I'm sure capitalists would say this is anti-democracy, anti-freedom and so on, so it depends what your values are, and some values happen to be correct, provide happiness for the vast majority, and on the right side of history (anti-racism, anti-sexism etc.).
As for violence, is that really an issue in Nordic countries? Does the left in Finland advocate taking up arms against the state? I'm not trying to be sarcastic I'm genuinely wondering if that's the case. Violence may be necessary against an oppressive state, but Denmark, Sweden is not France/Germany during WW2...
I think at the moment I disagree with Cheezmo on freedom of speech though, I think that should apply even to fascists, but they shouldn't be able to have politicians imo, that shouldn't be tolerated. Neither should the religious but that's another debate. I think you should be allowed to espouse wrong, idiotic, evil beliefs in books music and so on, but it cannot be used to directly influence laws. I think preventing speech creates dilemmas later on though (ie banning fascists because they're racist, but if a comedian says something that could be interpreted as racist then what happens, who decides what's a joke and what isn't, so on and so on.) Sometimes people need to hear bad things anyway, if only to rile up a resistance to it.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
I feel I should clarify. I worded my statement carefully: Fascism, not Fascists. That is, No Platform for Fascism and Fascist politics. We're probably more in agreement than is immediately apparent.
Sure, there are some authoritarian measures, but adding violence on top of it isn't gonna solve anything, and comfortably you left it out of the part of being in the right side of history. I think the Nordic model has a far better track record for being on the right side of history than any form of anti-capitalism we've ever seen implemented at least.
Oh, I was just talking about the extreme far left/actual AntiFa organization/s, there has certainly been examples of violent action. However, they have almost zero support, even the most leftist organizations publicly denounce their actions from what I've seen.
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