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[Klocker]

Please read what I said more carefully. I've given you an exact elaboration of the scenario you suggested and a very obvious problem it could introduce (offloaded compute clogging the rendering pipeline in an unknown moment)

the interviews I have read in this describe exactly how the key to this has been keeping the Box working in harmony with the server.

the algorithms to do that have no doubt been worked on by MS Research for a while now figuring out how to implement it in the APIs and in the way the box handles the data so it works seamlessly as possible.

 

[FordGTGuy]

LOL.

Ah look another local troll grazing in their common grounds.

the interviews I have read in this describe exactly how the key to this has been keeping the Box working in harmony with the server.

the algorithms to do that have no doubt been worked on by MS Research for a while now figuring out how to implement it in the APIs and in the way the box handles the data so it works seamlessly as possible.

Not sure what you're talking about bro, pretty sure Microsoft doesn't know how servers work... /s

 

[p3tran]

how can I say it... those of you that crave enhancements that come outside of the box, you shall be disappointed.
the console still has enough power to go to the next step from where forza was.
but there is no way in games like forza that the <<cloud>> is going to even offset what was deducted from the gaming aspect of the console in favor of its OS, let alone provide serious enhancing like "infinite cloud power" can lead one to believe.
they know their console this time is weaker than sony's. they will keep sucking the cloud lollipop for as long as they can get away with it. simple.

 

[FordGTGuy]

how can I say it... those of you that crave enhancements that come outside of the box, you shall be disappointed.
the console still has enough power to go to the next step from where forza was.
but there is no way in games like forza that the <<cloud>> is going to even offset what was deducted from the gaming aspect of the console in favor of its OS, let alone provide serious enhancing like "infinite cloud power" can lead one to believe.
they know their console this time is weaker than sony's. they will keep sucking the cloud lollipop for as long as they can get away with it. simple.

Who in this thread said even one time that the cloud is going to offset the power difference?

Hell we're just talking about offloading non time sensitive computations to the cloud.

This doesn't automatically make the Xbox One stronger as it has it's limitations... internet connection being a huge one.

 

[phosphor112]

Ah look another local troll grazing in their common grounds.



Not sure what you're talking about bro, pretty sure Microsoft doesn't know how servers work... /s

I'm gonna have to back you on this. I honestly thought you were singing the same tune as these guys.

 

[Snubbers]

When they say latency insensitive, they are talking of the order of seconds, and then you don't want to be 'streaming' massive chunks of data, or you will have issues with poor net connections causing variable quality.

I suggested above, http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59424113&postcount=831, two simple scenarios under which I think cloud computing could help to really improve the game..

Massive AI (not in the same way as someone else mentioned) and dynamic time of day offloading.. both still required the console to perform calcs for all the immediate AI/Track around it, but the cloud can certainly deal with everything else coming up in terms of both ideas.

 

[Klocker]

the bottom line is the Xbox is MORE than powerful enough for next gen compared to PS4 and Forza 5 will look AMAZING no doubt... the cloud stuff is not to make up for anything.... it is to ADD to the experience in a way that the current boxes can't do alone, persistence and size of world and other features that an inventive mind can imagine and implement

so I am NOT saying, this is to make up for 0.6 TF of GPU... I don't give a shit because 1.2 TF GPU with the same Triangle set up of PS4 is plenty powerful along with the 3 display planes and Ram pipeline design.

I'm saying the cloud will Add subtle non latency-sensitive features and by moving a few things into the server they undoubtedly free up some local rendering power for other things locally as well.

 

[Lord Error]

I'm pretty sure Microsoft has it set up to deal with the rendering and the rendering pipeline is the last "pipeline" we need to be worried about in this scenario.

Because rendering pipeline of this machine is so incredible that it will render no matter what you throw at it at any given moment?

the interviews I have read in this describe exactly how the key to this has been keeping the Box working in harmony with the server.

the algorithms to do that have no doubt been worked on by MS Research for a while now figuring out how to implement it in the APIs and in the way the box handles the data so it works seamlessly as possible.

There's obviously some doubt, when people working with the devkit are saying that it's behind from where it should be on far more basic things than this.

 

[gamemadmax]

Sorry but you're wrong, they've already made it clear that cloud computing is going to be used on non time sensitive computations. For instance you start doing a burnout and the Xbox One creates the smoke for 1-2 seconds and than the cloud picks up and can keep it going much beyond what a Xbox One could actually do.

Same with spectators, volumetric fog or cloud and so on.



As I agree that most of the things he said wouldn't work but weather would work most definitely as it's something that is out of your control anyway.

It is definitely not bullshit as you would say it.

Hoping these will be not gold exclusive.

 

[FordGTGuy]

the cloud stuff is not to make up for anything.... it is to ADD to the experience in a way that the current boxes can't do alone, persistence and size of world and other features that an inventive mind can imagine and implement

This cannot be repeated enough, perfectly put.

Because rendering pipeline of this machine is so incredible that it will render no matter what you throw at it at any given moment?

The internet pipeline is a lot more important than a rendering pipeline at this stage.

Also I think it's funny that you think Microsoft doesn't have the capability of knowing how much data the local console can handle at once, give me a break.

Hoping these will be not gold exclusive.

I'm not holding my breathe.

 

[Lord Error]

Also I think it's funny that you think Microsoft doesn't have the capability of knowing how much data the local console can handle at once, give me a break.

It can't be up to microsoft to control this, it's up to developer and up to specific game scenarios. They have to decide what to render and how much of it.

 

[FordGTGuy]

It can't be up to microsoft to control this, it's up to developer and up to specific game scenarios. They have to decide what to render and how much of it.

You mean the same developers that have access to the console and can test the amount of data that the console can push at once locally and over the cloud?!

That's bonkers bro.

 

[Klocker]

There's obviously some doubt, when people working with the devkit are saying that it's behind from where it should be on far more basic things than this.

understood... Beyond what Forza 5 and other exclusives will do with it as showcase first parties I do not expect much from other devs until after year one and beyond at the earliest... except maybe EA with the sports games

 

[Lord Error]

You mean the same developers that have access to the console and can test the amount of data that the console can push at once locally and over the cloud?!

That's bonkers bro.

The problem is, you don't even know what the machine will be rendering at the time this cloud data comes back. It's completely unpredictable due to various latencies, server loads or whatever else. Game developers hate unpredictability.

This isn't Azure cloud, in fact the servers are purely Xbox Live.

Is it? I through it was confirmed that the 300K (virtual) servers is the what the Azure compute cloud is, and Xbox will have access to it, shared with whatever other clients use it.

 

[gamemadmax]

It seems developers will have to pay for using the servers.

Patches were costly right ?

 

[FordGTGuy]

The problem is, you don't even know what the machine will be rendering at the time this cloud data comes back. It's completely unpredictable due to various latencies, server loads or whatever else. Game developers hate unpredictability.


Is it? I through it was confirmed that the 300K (virtual) servers is the what the Azure compute cloud is, and Xbox will have access to it, shared with whatever other clients use it.

Already confirmed on Windows Weekly that these servers have nothing to do with Azure, they are purely Xbox Live servers.

You do realize that you picked the wrong game for this theory right? It is highly predictable what a racing game is rendering when the data comes back. It's rendering the same cars on the same track as when the data was requested.

 

[Klocker]

The problem is, you don't even know what the machine will be rendering at the time this cloud data comes back. It's completely unpredictable due to various latencies, server loads or whatever else. Game developers hate unpredictability.


Is it? I through it was confirmed that the 300K (virtual) servers is the what the Azure compute cloud is, and Xbox will have access to it, shared with whatever other clients use it.

the whole system has been designed to handle it... this is NOT some half -ass effort to counter weaker specs as some people like to think... this has been a plan for years. my suspicion is that perhaps that's what the Move engines are for... It is built in to the machine (and/or APIs) allegedly to control the data flow... I mean come on man, these are world class engineers, studying this for years, you really think they have not thought of every contingency that we can while we are sitting here arguing on GAF? :lol


as for servers... no man, not virtual, they can deploy and have been deploying up to 300k per year for several years in growth and are adding 300k physical servers to the infrastructure that will be used for LIVE

 

[saladine1]

Dat clouds

Seriously, I have no fucking clue what 'The Cloud' does, or what it even means.


All I know is, Turn 10, if you don't have a fully fledged dyno in the game yet, you better get to work. I want my dynamometer dammit!

 

[p3tran]

guys.. did you see that video where kinect is always locked in faces and picks up if you look at the advertisement, uses facial recognition and has a whole bunch of tickboxes regarding the appraisal of your viewing? did you see how "Microsoft Advertizing" pitches "kinect NUads" to the multinationals?
THATS WHAT THE FUCKING CLOUD IS FOR!! and thats why the machine needs to connect to it. to take back the consumer feedback to the <<cloud>>, then collect the money from advertisers. and after that, secondary, to control strictly your games and your media, for some extra income from that. Its not there to make your games better!
I cant understand how some people like to prettify the reality...

 

[golem]

Is it? I through it was confirmed that the 300K (virtual) servers is the what the Azure compute cloud is, and Xbox will have access to it, shared with whatever other clients use it.

Microsoft has over 200,000 servers at a single facility in Chicago..

 

[soundscream]

Dat clouds

Seriously, I have no fucking clue what 'The Cloud' does, or what it even means.

Giant breast full of milk, I want clouds damn it!

 

[Lord Error]

the whole system has been designed to handle it... this is NOT some half -ass effort to counter weaker specs as some people like to think... this has been a plan for years. my suspicion is that perhaps that's what the Move engines are for... It is built in to the machine (and/or APIs) allegedly to control the data flow... I mean come on man, these are world class engineers, studying this for years, you really think they have not thought of every contingency that we can while we are sitting here arguing on GAF? :lol

There's nothing special on hardware side that you need to design for this to happen. It's just about servers and API. Any machine can be used to do something like this. As I mentioned, MS has a game on mobile phones that is doing something like this.

 

[Klocker]

guys.. did you see that video where kinect is always locked in faces and picks up if you look at the advertisement, uses facial recognition and has a whole bunch of tickboxes regarding the appraisal of your viewing? did you see how "Microsoft Advertizing" pitches "kinect NUads" to the multinationals?
THATS WHAT THE FUCKING CLOUD IS FOR!! and thats why the machine needs to connect to it. to take back the consumer feedback to the <<cloud>>, then collect the money from advertisers. and after that, secondary, to control strictly your games and your media, for some extra income from that. Its not there to make your games better!
I cant understand how some people like to prettify the reality...

dude ....easy :lol


Kinect camera can be deactivated in privacy settings ... CRISIS AVERTED!

 

[Paladin CL]

To be honest i have NO clue what the famous cloud could do in the game and i think it could be a nightmare if is too deeply implemented because in most of countries you dont have the kind of super fast internet needed for lag free clound gaming, so whatever element that the cloud manages it at risk of not working correctly with the rest of the game.

I´ll wait to see what this new thing can actually do.

 

[Spartaner]

guys.. did you see that video where kinect is always locked in faces and picks up if you look at the advertisement, uses facial recognition and has a whole bunch of tickboxes regarding the appraisal of your viewing? did you see how "Microsoft Advertizing" pitches "kinect NUads" to the multinationals?
THATS WHAT THE FUCKING CLOUD IS FOR!! and thats why the machine needs to connect to it. to take back the consumer feedback to the <<cloud>>, then collect the money from advertisers. and after that, secondary, to control strictly your games and your media, for some extra income from that. Its not there to make your games better!
I cant understand how some people like to prettify the reality...

everything will be resolved at e3

 

[m23]

dude ....easy :lol


Kinect camera can be deactivated in privacy settings ... CRISIS AVERTED!

Not sure if its official, but that is some good news. Either way I don't really have much of an issue with an always on Kinect.

Also, how did a Forza thread turn into a cloud/kinect debate and why are there so many damn trolls sidetracking the conversation. It was great reading about thing we hoped for in Forza 5 and then it turned into bullshit about MS policies.

On Forza, I'm excited for the continuing partnership between Turn10 and TopGear. Hopefully we actually get Clarkson narrating the Autovista this time. I'm also excited about the possibility of racing announcers in game.

 

[derFeef]

I can see it being utilized for cars or racetracks after launch, where you just stream in the data instead of downloading packs to your hdd.

 

[VVV Mars VG]

Nah, he'll save that for the long demo on Gamespot... :-D
There should be a bingo before E3 about Dan's favourite words and sentences !

It's funny you say that, I think I included some of those here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncYFoMwzPDU

 

[Klocker]

To be honest i have NO clue what the famous cloud could do in the game and i think it could be a nightmare if is too deeply implemented because in most of countries you dont have the kind of super fast internet needed for lag free clound gaming, so whatever element that the cloud manages it at risk of not working correctly with the rest of the game.

I´ll wait to see what this new thing can actually do.

yea I think AI behavior and track atmosphere are the most likely candidates for using this tech

but let's get this thread back on track...

Do it.jpg

 

[p3tran]

dude ....easy :lol


Kinect camera can be deactivated in privacy settings ... CRISIS AVERTED!

dude I am very easy. its not me who lacks understanding of what cloud is and what it will enhance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncYFoMwzPDU

lol

 

[Lord Error]

You do realize that you picked the wrong game for this theory right? It is highly predictable what a racing game is rendering when the data comes back. It's rendering the same cars on the same track as when the data was requested.

Well, not even racing games are that simple anymore, especially if you want stuff like less/more complex crowd simulations or fluid simulations to happen in them at (for an engine) unpredictable times. The way they're talking here, it could literally be seconds of lag for this, and a lot can change even in racing game during that time.

 

[soundscream]

guys.. did you see that video where kinect is always locked in faces and picks up if you look at the advertisement, uses facial recognition and has a whole bunch of tickboxes regarding the appraisal of your viewing? did you see how "Microsoft Advertizing" pitches "kinect NUads" to the multinationals?
THATS WHAT THE FUCKING CLOUD IS FOR!! and thats why the machine needs to connect to it. to take back the consumer feedback to the <<cloud>>, then collect the money from advertisers. and after that, secondary, to control strictly your games and your media, for some extra income from that. Its not there to make your games better!
I cant understand how some people like to prettify the reality...

Meanwhile in Greece:

 

[TheOddOne]

Lol you drank too much of that MS PR Koolaid.

You know it's very hard to take you serious when you do this holier than thou act. I have no idea why you are so persistent in baiting people for no apparent reason.

Was really necessary to comment like that? Could you not have said “I don’t think that is possible, because..”? Same point is made and it’s polite. Side effect is that you will get a decent reply.

Sorry, maybe I’m being obtuse here but I just don’t see the need for this aggressive attitude.

 

[Mascot]

So the best real-time use of the cloud is to produce the best real-time clouds?

WEATHER CONFIRMED.

So... this cloud thing... could it be used for stuff such as Perpetual Environmental New Intelligent Sampling (just made that up 'cos the acronym is PENIS, tee-hee) whereby (for example) every skidmark I leave on the tarmac or every paint scrape I leave on an armco barrier is remembered and will ALWAYS be on that track when I play it? So tracks change dynamically depending how you play them. Put a big dent in a tree during a bad crash? It's still there as a reminder every time you pass it.

 

[eso76]

Guys, cloud can't really do much in fm5.
Yes, well, I suppose you could have photo mode pics rendered with ray tracing, radiosity and whatnot.
Entire replays even but, eh, videos.

I suppose it could be used to analyse players driving style, analyse thousands of laps and updating the games' AI, learning from players. That's definitely possible, but not counting on it. Would be glorious, though.


New logo is not bad, but t10 needs to stop changing it every few games.

 

[p3tran]

So... this cloud thing... could it be used for stuff such as Perpetual Environmental New Intelligent Sampling (just made that up 'cos the acronym is PENIS, tee-hee) whereby (for example) every skidmark I leave on the tarmac or every paint scrape I leave on an armco barrier is remembered and will ALWAYS be on that track when I play it? So tracks change dynamically depending how you play them. Put a big dent in a tree during a bad crash? It's still there as a reminder every time you pass it.

forza1 on original xbox had paint scraps etc that remained for the duration of the race. I guess its more of a "can use hdd as standard", against "game must run on dvd" thing.
for damage to remain forever though.. interesting )) imagine how your tracks will look after a month or two. forza battlefield 5 )

 

[Perkel]

Uhh when i read about last two pages it seems people do not have any idea what can be done on cloud and what can't. People think it is some kind of magic souce that will give games better physic, volumetric fog/smoke (lol), crowds (?) and probably with good amount of spin it will make games run 120fps@4k.

Cloud is perfect for movie/music/TV streaming, simulations of non time essential data like nonactive AI (city simulations) or economy simulation (something like X3) because all above give you time to get results and present them with even big amount of lag. For example game economy can be updated every 10 seconds

When you have game that runs 30fps or 60fps you simply have to little time to send data>work on that data>receive data.

If you want to see right now cloud power then turn on your Words of Warcraft client and enjoy your shitty ARPG experience of non-action. Go to see lags in multiplayer FPSes where sever runs only simple calculations where are people or who got shot. Go to see Path of Exile desync because it tries to fight with asynchronous legacy of online arpgs.

Cloud compute can work like some people want it but that would need literally server being in your house near your console/PC and that is as we know impossible OR other option which is possible and will happen: Much better internet network with very very very low pings in every house but that will happen in distant future not now.

Guys, cloud can't really do much in fm5.
Yes, well, I suppose you could have photo mode pics rendered with ray tracing, radiosity and whatnot.
Entire replays even but, eh, videos.

I suppose it could be used to analyse players driving style, analyse thousands of laps and updating the games' AI, learning from players. That's definitely possible, but not counting on it. Would be glorious, though.


New logo is not bad, but t10 needs to stop changing it every few games.

This.

 

[eso76]

So the best real-time use of the cloud is to produce the best real-time clouds?

WEATHER CONFIRMED.

So... this cloud thing... could it be used for stuff such as Perpetual Environmental New Intelligent Sampling (just made that up 'cos the acronym is PENIS, tee-hee) whereby (for example) every skidmark I leave on the tarmac or every paint scrape I leave on an armco barrier is remembered and will ALWAYS be on that track when I play it?

If its your crashes and your skid marks, then it doesn't require the cloud, it's already doable with a HDD.
Problem is it would soon become a rather huge amount of data to load, store in ram, and render each time.

Cloud could be used to store everyone's crashes and skid marks on tracks, but the only practical way to implement this would be releasing an updated version of the track, with baked skid marks and paint scrapes, for download every few weeks, replacing the original track files.

 

[Paladin CL]

I would love a track editor, even something basic like GT5 one (with improvements), I have always think that its a natural step for Forza, its will be a great part of the creativeness and sharing aspect that this game have.

 

[Mascot]

Goddammit! I tried editing the image that Shinnn linked from my PB account so that Shinnn's original post would show this image instead. Did it work? Did it fuck. I am such a Luddite.

 

[Klocker]

.

less than 15 days

 

[Biggzy]

.

less than 15 days

Dan better deliver the goods; I want to be blown away.

 

[Perkel]

If its your crashes and your skid marks, then it doesn't require the cloud, it's already doable with a HDD.
Problem is it would soon become a rather huge amount of data to load, store in ram, and render each time.

Cloud could be used to store everyone's crashes and skid marks on tracks, but the only practical way to implement this would be releasing an updated version of the track, with baked skid marks and paint scrapes, for download every few weeks, replacing the original track files.

Or simply update to road textures.

Frankly some of your ideas are interesting but i do not see that they will pay for such things.
At best we will probably see weather managed from servers to synchronize with tracks or simulation of racing leagues with xxxx amount of racing drivers.

 

[eso76]

Or simply update to road textures.

Frankly some of your ideas are interesting but i do not see that they will pay for such things.
At best we will probably see weather managed from servers to synchronize with tracks or simulation of racing leagues with xxxx amount of racing drivers.

Of course not, it's too much trouble for a little reward, they'll never consider anything like Mascot's PENIS, was just thinking of how it could be implemented.
Well, ai learning from players all over the world would be a pretty awesome, but I'm not expecting that either.

 

[Mascot]

So what do we all think of FM5's cover art? I like it a lot. I thought FM4's cover was terrible, that awful shot of the 458 badly shopped at an odd angle like the suspension on one side had collapsed or something. I hated it. Reminder:

Edit: totally forgot about the headlight lie.

I think FM5's cover is much, much better as an attractive piece of box art, but doesn't necessarily say Motorsport to me. What do you reckon?

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

FM5's looks better but not by a great deal (FM2 LCE was the only cover I liked) just noticed the sky's all blown out on the FM4 cover just like the game.

Shame because the old games had nice skyboxes.

 

[dejay]

guys.. did you see that video where kinect is always locked in faces and picks up if you look at the advertisement, uses facial recognition and has a whole bunch of tickboxes regarding the appraisal of your viewing? did you see how "Microsoft Advertizing" pitches "kinect NUads" to the multinationals?
THATS WHAT THE FUCKING CLOUD IS FOR!! and thats why the machine needs to connect to it. to take back the consumer feedback to the <<cloud>>, then collect the money from advertisers. and after that, secondary, to control strictly your games and your media, for some extra income from that. Its not there to make your games better!
I cant understand how some people like to prettify the reality...

Well people wanted Minority Report with Kinect.

 

[StudioTan]

If there are 16 cars in the race, most of them won't be near you or reacting to your driving. Couldn't the cloud be used to simulate with greater finesse and precision what is happening on the other parts of the track at any given time? I mean, usually when I'm racing I feel like most of the cars are just there to fill space. If all the drivers had more intelligent AI and those near you would be computed locally while those elsewhere would be computed in the cloud it could lead to more realistic and varied races.

 

[Slayer-33]

The brand logo looks way better, clean as fuck boxart

 

[Mascot]

Aren't we supposed to be getting some exclusive FM5 information before E3 from (I think) Gametrailers?

So maybe THIS WEEK?