Fred Russell (Former Turn 10 Employee) - Turn 10 Studios has shuttered the Forza Motorsport space, remaining staff are to support Forza Horizon

I don't know what really happened behind the scenes at Turn 10 between Forza Motorsport 2 and Forza Motorsport 4 but I've got to say those were some of the most active exciting online races of all time, and it was amazing. Everything nowadays feels like a step backwards? Maybe I'm just a grumpy old c**t.
 
I've only played FM5 on Xbox One, and that was so boring because they bombarded you with vehicles. You didn't have to do anything for them.
 
Team Andromeda said:
I tend not to put 140 hours into a game I find the worst in series myself.
Click to expand...
It's interesting that other than focusing on me, you don't really have any points to make. First you accused me of not playing the game and now I've apparently played too much, nothing else to say about the actual game.
 
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Skifi28 said:
It's interesting that other than focusing on me, you don't really have any points to make. First you accused me of not playing the game and now I've apparently played too much, nothing else to say about the actual game.
Click to expand...
I think you're trying to pointscore, but we're all different.
Xbox could patch the hell out of Halo 5, but you catch me playing that game for 100+ hours, for a game I consider to be the worst in it's series
 
Team Andromeda said:
I think you're trying to pointscore, but we're all different.
Xbox could patch the hell out of Halo 5, but you catch me playing that game for 100+ hours, for a game I consider to be the worst in it's series
Click to expand...
So still nothing to add on the actual topic about Forza I see, just the usual strawman. I think we're done here.
 
chilichote said:
I've only played FM5 on Xbox One, and that was so boring because they bombarded you with vehicles. You didn't have to do anything for them.
Click to expand...
You sure you meant FM5 and not FH5 (Forza Horizon 5)? Motorsport 5 actually had a very limited lineup of vehicles, not offering too much content was one of the main issues with that game.
 
Well, here we have the result of Microsoft's xbox ambassadors and Astroturfing

Who here doesn't remember the circus that was the comparison between GT and FM with "car damage when you crash"?


It was a bombardment of comments saying how Forza Motorsport was supreme, that it crashed the car and crumpled it and how GT was badly made because there was no damage to the cars when it crashed


With the right to an "organic" IGN article with a headline:


Video comparing car damage in Forza and GT



Here we have the result of living on irrelevant rhetoric on the internet and when reality imposes itself.


Anyone who plays racing simulators does NOT care about car damage when they crash, no one ever has and never will and this has always been manufactured by xbox with their "ambassadors" and their Astroturfing to hyping FM and attacking GT.


GT7 still has no damage to the car when it crashes, Forza is now bankrupt and has anyone here seen any news about the relevance of crashing the car and damaging it in Forza and GT7?


Well done, this should be the fate of everyone who lives by lying on the internet, especially an entire brand that is based on forming a Sect of lunatics around it and paying "honest opinion" to youtubers as xbox has already been condemned for doing.


I was sure that the "damage to cars when it crashes" nonsense wasn't organic, and now we have the proof.

Real consumers continue to buy GT and don't buy Forza, because in the real world nobody cares about car damage when they crash in a racing simulator
 
Det said:
Well, here we have the result of Microsoft's xbox ambassadors and Astroturfing

Who here doesn't remember the circus that was the comparison between GT and FM with "car damage when you crash"?


It was a bombardment of comments saying how Forza Motorsport was supreme, that it crashed the car and crumpled it and how GT was badly made because there was no damage to the cars when it crashed


With the right to an "organic" IGN article with a headline:


Video comparing car damage in Forza and GT



Here we have the result of living on irrelevant rhetoric on the internet and when reality imposes itself.


Anyone who plays racing simulators does NOT care about car damage when they crash, no one ever has and never will and this has always been manufactured by xbox with their "ambassadors" and their Astroturfing to hyping FM and attacking GT.


GT7 still has no damage to the car when it crashes, Forza is now bankrupt and has anyone here seen any news about the relevance of crashing the car and damaging it in Forza and GT7?


Well done, this should be the fate of everyone who lives by lying on the internet, especially an entire brand that is based on forming a Sect of lunatics around it and paying "honest opinion" to youtubers as xbox has already been condemned for doing.


I was sure that the "damage to cars when it crashes" nonsense wasn't organic, and now we have the proof.

Real consumers continue to buy GT and don't buy Forza, because in the real world nobody cares about car damage when they crash in a racing simulator
Click to expand...
Thats a weird take. Car damage is important - there are 22000 people playing beamng right now - and car damage is a major part of that game.
But people don't only care about car damage - thats one of a myriad of factors that go into a racing game.
 
Det said:
Well, here we have the result of Microsoft's xbox ambassadors and Astroturfing

Who here doesn't remember the circus that was the comparison between GT and FM with "car damage when you crash"?


It was a bombardment of comments saying how Forza Motorsport was supreme, that it crashed the car and crumpled it and how GT was badly made because there was no damage to the cars when it crashed


With the right to an "organic" IGN article with a headline:


Video comparing car damage in Forza and GT



Here we have the result of living on irrelevant rhetoric on the internet and when reality imposes itself.


Anyone who plays racing simulators does NOT care about car damage when they crash, no one ever has and never will and this has always been manufactured by xbox with their "ambassadors" and their Astroturfing to hyping FM and attacking GT.


GT7 still has no damage to the car when it crashes, Forza is now bankrupt and has anyone here seen any news about the relevance of crashing the car and damaging it in Forza and GT7?


Well done, this should be the fate of everyone who lives by lying on the internet, especially an entire brand that is based on forming a Sect of lunatics around it and paying "honest opinion" to youtubers as xbox has already been condemned for doing.


I was sure that the "damage to cars when it crashes" nonsense wasn't organic, and now we have the proof.

Real consumers continue to buy GT and don't buy Forza, because in the real world nobody cares about car damage when they crash in a racing simulator
Click to expand...
I disagree.

As someone who has 700 or so hours in gt7, I would be stocked if they added car damage in gt8. The reason why gt7 succeeded over forza are multifold, some of them, imo, are:

1. Far better single player. Last I checked, forza motorsport still didn't have career races with race cars. Not to mention, how in forza, the career events seem haphazardly put together with no good linkage between them. Not to mention how bad the progression is in forza even though it has been improved over launch( having to level up cars to unlock upgrades was stupid as heck).

In gt7, in contrast, you still have a sense of progression( you start with a cheap hatchbox and eventually unlock formula cars and group 1 cars). You have the cafe system with menus, yeah it's not perfect, but it's better than what forza has.

2. The AI in gt7, even though bad, is still better than forza's. Plus you now have the option of sophy AI, which is brilliant.

3. The tracks in gt7, are generally far more accurate than the ones in forza. You can learn tracks in gt7, and you can use that knowledge in iracing, acc and even real life. In forza, the curbs are pretty bad along with track accuracy for some tracks.

4. While racing, the one thing you notice the most( besides brake points and markers) is the cars themselves. Gt7 has the best car models in a racing game. Forza's models are generally outdated and inaccurate in comparison.

5. Fans were pissed due to the "build from the ground up" lie that forza told pre release. Even in trailers the same inaccuracies that previous forza's had regarding car models and tracks was still visible in motorsport trailers( not to mention when the game released). It became a meme honestly.

6. Fomo. Gt7 has fomo but the cars are still available ( they go out of stock but come back a while later) whereas in forza, you can miss out on events, etc. The thing you want to see when you come back to the game is the events that have been added, not events that you have missed.

7. Gt7 has mxts, but everything in the game is available without any additional purchase to everyone who has the game. You just need to grind and unlock stuff.

There are other reasons as well but that is general gist as to why forza failed in comparison. Car damage is not even in top 10 and in actuality is one of the most requested things for future gt titles.
 
Insanemaelstrom said:
I disagree.

As someone who has 700 or so hours in gt7, I would be stocked if they added car damage in gt8. The reason why gt7 succeeded over forza are multifold, some of them, imo, are:

1. Far better single player. Last I checked, forza motorsport still didn't have career races with race cars. Not to mention, how in forza, the career events seem haphazardly put together with no good linkage between them. Not to mention how bad the progression is in forza even though it has been improved over launch( having to level up cars to unlock upgrades was stupid as heck).

In gt7, in contrast, you still have a sense of progression( you start with a cheap hatchbox and eventually unlock formula cars and group 1 cars). You have the cafe system with menus, yeah it's not perfect, but it's better than what forza has.

2. The AI in gt7, even though bad, is still better than forza's. Plus you now have the option of sophy AI, which is brilliant.

3. The tracks in gt7, are generally far more accurate than the ones in forza. You can learn tracks in gt7, and you can use that knowledge in iracing, acc and even real life. In forza, the curbs are pretty bad along with track accuracy for some tracks.

4. While racing, the one thing you notice the most( besides brake points and markers) is the cars themselves. Gt7 has the best car models in a racing game. Forza's models are generally outdated and inaccurate in comparison.

5. Fans were pissed due to the "build from the ground up" lie that forza told pre release. Even in trailers the same inaccuracies that previous forza's had regarding car models and tracks was still visible in motorsport trailers( not to mention when the game released). It became a meme honestly.

6. Fomo. Gt7 has fomo but the cars are still available ( they go out of stock but come back a while later) whereas in forza, you can miss out on events, etc. The thing you want to see when you come back to the game is the events that have been added, not events that you have missed.

7. Gt7 has mxts, but everything in the game is available without any additional purchase to everyone who has the game. You just need to grind and unlock stuff.

There are other reasons as well but that is general gist as to why forza failed in comparison. Car damage is not even in top 10 and in actuality is one of the most requested things for future gt titles.
Click to expand...
Visual car damage is a waste of resources because with mechanical breakdowns you will be out of the race anyway after a serious crash. Plus it's a pain for licensing and restricts road car list for no substantial gains.

Even monoclass games with fewer cars like ACC are not that wild in that department.
 
ShaiKhulud1989 said:
Visual car damage is a waste of resources because with mechanical breakdowns you will be out of the race anyway after a serious crash. Plus it's a pain for licensing and restricts road car list for no substantial gains.

Even monoclass games with fewer cars like ACC are not that wild in that department.
Click to expand...
I feel the main hurdle( and why it is unlikely) is that car models are absurdly detailed in modern racing games. Gt7 takes 9 to 11 months to make on car model. Adding realistic destruction and damage to cars, would take far too long to be possible. It is one of the most requested thing, but unfortunately one of the least likely as well.

As for license, personally can't comment as I don't really know if that is actually a limitation or not.
 
Insanemaelstrom said:
I feel the main hurdle( and why it is unlikely) is that car models are absurdly detailed in modern racing games. Gt7 takes 9 to 11 months to make on car model. Adding realistic destruction and damage to cars, would take far too long to be possible. It is one of the most requested thing, but unfortunately one of the least likely as well.

As for license, personally can't comment as I don't really know if that is actually a limitation or not.
Click to expand...
Licensing is a huge limitation, more than tech or anything else, really. Ferrari or Lambo picky about amount of cosmetic damage, road-legal brands think that extensive damage model promotes unsafe driving and hurt their safety image in general. It's a well known issue in a racing community, that's why games like GTA or Mafia kinda forced to use knockoffs despite huge budgets.
 
chilichote said:
I've only played FM5 on Xbox One, and that was so boring because they bombarded you with vehicles. You didn't have to do anything for them.
Click to expand...
Gotta be a tough call to make for devs when making a racing sim. A huge part of the market for those games wants nothing to do with unlocking cars. They're buying it as a tool more than a single player game to be "beat". I certainly lean to your side, but I always buy the ultimate edition of racing games. So I have to use willpower during the campaign to force myself to earn stuff. You're gonna piss off a big part of your customer base no matter which way you go.
 
Det said:
Well, here we have the result of Microsoft's xbox ambassadors and Astroturfing

Who here doesn't remember the circus that was the comparison between GT and FM with "car damage when you crash"?


It was a bombardment of comments saying how Forza Motorsport was supreme, that it crashed the car and crumpled it and how GT was badly made because there was no damage to the cars when it crashed


With the right to an "organic" IGN article with a headline:


Video comparing car damage in Forza and GT



Here we have the result of living on irrelevant rhetoric on the internet and when reality imposes itself.


Anyone who plays racing simulators does NOT care about car damage when they crash, no one ever has and never will and this has always been manufactured by xbox with their "ambassadors" and their Astroturfing to hyping FM and attacking GT.


GT7 still has no damage to the car when it crashes, Forza is now bankrupt and has anyone here seen any news about the relevance of crashing the car and damaging it in Forza and GT7?


Well done, this should be the fate of everyone who lives by lying on the internet, especially an entire brand that is based on forming a Sect of lunatics around it and paying "honest opinion" to youtubers as xbox has already been condemned for doing.


I was sure that the "damage to cars when it crashes" nonsense wasn't organic, and now we have the proof.

Real consumers continue to buy GT and don't buy Forza, because in the real world nobody cares about car damage when they crash in a racing simulator
Click to expand...

Imagine typing all this unhinged BS because once upon a time, the usual Forza vs GT comparisons made you salty. What does car damage have to do with anything?

None of this shit led to Turn 10 screwing up the recent Forza Motorsport so badly.
 
Ozriel said:
Imagine typing all this unhinged BS because once upon a time, the usual Forza vs GT comparisons made you salty. What does car damage have to do with anything?

None of this shit led to Turn 10 screwing up the recent Forza Motorsport so badly.
Click to expand...

In almost 30 years of Gran Turismo, no one has ever compared bumper cars between any racing simulator or pseudo-simulator.

But mysteriously, it became a relevant requirement for a few months of some year at some point.

Of course, it was organic and spontaneous, not manufactured.
It mysteriously disappeared, as if someone realized this marketing campaign wasn't working.

Suddenly, something no one ever cared about becomes a hot topic on the internet.
With the "official" press covering it.

Nobody is an idiot, the only idiots are those who always try the same type of marketing

8faGZNR.jpeg



The damage to the cars disappeared just like "full RDNA2" and "sustainable clocking."

You know what stayed the same? What no one needs to keep repeating like a parrot.

Xbox's entire marketing is all about saying "I'm the king, I'm the king"
 
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Insanemaelstrom said:
I disagree.

As someone who has 700 or so hours in gt7, I would be stocked if they added car damage in gt8. The reason why gt7 succeeded over forza are multifold, some of them, imo, are:

1. Far better single player. Last I checked, forza motorsport still didn't have career races with race cars. Not to mention, how in forza, the career events seem haphazardly put together with no good linkage between them. Not to mention how bad the progression is in forza even though it has been improved over launch( having to level up cars to unlock upgrades was stupid as heck).

In gt7, in contrast, you still have a sense of progression( you start with a cheap hatchbox and eventually unlock formula cars and group 1 cars). You have the cafe system with menus, yeah it's not perfect, but it's better than what forza has.

2. The AI in gt7, even though bad, is still better than forza's. Plus you now have the option of sophy AI, which is brilliant.

3. The tracks in gt7, are generally far more accurate than the ones in forza. You can learn tracks in gt7, and you can use that knowledge in iracing, acc and even real life. In forza, the curbs are pretty bad along with track accuracy for some tracks.

4. While racing, the one thing you notice the most( besides brake points and markers) is the cars themselves. Gt7 has the best car models in a racing game. Forza's models are generally outdated and inaccurate in comparison.

5. Fans were pissed due to the "build from the ground up" lie that forza told pre release. Even in trailers the same inaccuracies that previous forza's had regarding car models and tracks was still visible in motorsport trailers( not to mention when the game released). It became a meme honestly.

6. Fomo. Gt7 has fomo but the cars are still available ( they go out of stock but come back a while later) whereas in forza, you can miss out on events, etc. The thing you want to see when you come back to the game is the events that have been added, not events that you have missed.

7. Gt7 has mxts, but everything in the game is available without any additional purchase to everyone who has the game. You just need to grind and unlock stuff.

There are other reasons as well but that is general gist as to why forza failed in comparison. Car damage is not even in top 10 and in actuality is one of the most requested things for future gt titles.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you said.

I'm just saying that the stupid bumper car marketing was the beginning of Forza's downfall.

After that, came the whole list you wrote.
 
Devastating news, can't help but think it's analysts saying there's no room for motorsport in the console multiplat space because Gran Turismo is untouchable
 
MrAlwaysRight said:
Devastating news, can't help but think it's analysts saying there's no room for motorsport in the console multiplat space because Gran Turismo is untouchable
Click to expand...
Highly disagree. You get a new gt game every 4 to 5 years. That's a massive time period wherein fans of the genre are waiting for a new game. If they release forza motorsport tomorrow on ps5, even with its flaws, it will still sell bonkers amount of copies.
 
GT is next, no competition ,no hunger, no focus, no drive. Sorry its the way these things go. GT had a reason to be the best and now that's been removed.
 
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Det said:
In almost 30 years of Gran Turismo, no one has ever compared bumper cars between any racing simulator or pseudo-simulator.

But mysteriously, it became a relevant requirement for a few months of some year at some point.

Of course, it was organic and spontaneous, not manufactured.
It mysteriously disappeared, as if someone realized this marketing campaign wasn't working.

Suddenly, something no one ever cared about becomes a hot topic on the internet.
With the "official" press covering it.

Nobody is an idiot, the only idiots are those who always try the same type of marketing

8faGZNR.jpeg



The damage to the cars disappeared just like "full RDNA2" and "sustainable clocking."

You know what stayed the same? What no one needs to keep repeating like a parrot.

Xbox's entire marketing is all about saying "I'm the king, I'm the king"
Click to expand...


Again, what does any of this have to do with this thread?

There must be other ways you can deal with anxiety brought about by Xbox marketing.
 
MrAlwaysRight said:
Devastating news, can't help but think it's analysts saying there's no room for motorsport in the console multiplat space because Gran Turismo is untouchable
Click to expand...
Any studio that takes so long to put out an unfinished game should be made defunct or completely overhauled. I'm amazed the studio that made Hellblade 2 is still standing.
 
diffusionx said:
Maybe one day we will get a behind the scenes look at just WTF happened to Turn 10.

They were able to get a FM game out every other year for over a decade then 7 years to release a really shoddy, sloppy, unfinished game that they spent years claiming was "built from the ground up."
Click to expand...

Essentially, most of the team left and majority of work has been done by contractors overseas on max. 18-months contracts.
 
diffusionx said:
Maybe one day we will get a behind the scenes look at just WTF happened to Turn 10.

They were able to get a FM game out every other year for over a decade then 7 years to release a really shoddy, sloppy, unfinished game that they spent years claiming was "built from the ground up."
Click to expand...

The same thing that happened with the Xbox 360, they got lucky and soon the Microsoft standard, its culture, was imposed.

Sooner or later, the "yes men" at TURN10 would be promoted to leadership by Phil Spencer.

Phil Spencer would promote someone "in his image and likeness" to a leadership position at TURN10.

It's a true collective delusion that people venerate or defend Phil Spencer and don't comment on what an idiot he is and the biggest culprit whenever there's a problem with Xbox studios or games.
He's the biggest clown I've ever seen in the gaming world... Even Nvidia, when it cheated on GeForce drivers to "beat" ATI, was more of a "man," in my opinion, than Phil Spencer with his victimhood and hypocrisy, and his attempts to play the "nice guy, a true gamer."

I would bet my PS5 and my PC that Phil Spencer is to blame for the demise of Forza Motorsport and TURN10
 
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Wulfer said:
GT is next, no competition ,no hunger, no focus, no drive. Sorry its the way these things go. GT had a reason to be the best and now that's been removed.
Click to expand...
So when the original launched in 1997, what reason did they have?
IAmRei said:
if forza died, nfs rumored to be closed dead as well, and we only got less racing IP these days? that's not good : /
Click to expand...
NFS needs a reboot in the vain of the original four.
 
simpatico said:
Gotta be a tough call to make for devs when making a racing sim. A huge part of the market for those games wants nothing to do with unlocking cars. They're buying it as a tool more than a single player game to be "beat". I certainly lean to your side, but I always buy the ultimate edition of racing games. So I have to use willpower during the campaign to force myself to earn stuff. You're gonna piss off a big part of your customer base no matter which way you go.
Click to expand...
I actually understand that. I came from Gran Turismo 1-4, and while you could get a lot of cars there too, as I recall, they were rarely particularly relevant without further tuning. In FM5, I simply missed the connection to the first cars, where you had to earn money for turbos, better tires, etc. In FM5, I never felt like I had to put in a lot of effort. I understand that some people like it that way; in fact, I also like it in more arcade-like racers.
 
Ozriel said:
Again, what does any of this have to do with this thread?

There must be other ways you can deal with anxiety brought about by Xbox marketing.
Click to expand...


This is the main reason for TURN10's bankruptcy.
The idiot leader of Turn10, promoted by Phil Spencer, believed in the lunatic Xbox fanboys and MS Astroturfing and it ended up like this, a flopped and bankrupt game.

"We invented DirectX, there's no way the PS4 can be more powerful than the Xbox One."

This idiotic mentality is Xbox culture, it's what Phil Spencer thinks and feels. It's the vision of Xbox leadership.
This vision is what caused TURN10 to go bankrupt... "We created the GT killer, there's no way we could make a bad game and lose to GT."
 
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RetroGamingUK said:
opencritic.com

Gran Turismo 7 Is Now The Franchise's Highest-Grossing Title In US

Gran Turismo 7 has established a new record for the storied racing franchise.
opencritic.com opencritic.com

Sure
Click to expand...
I think T10 pushed Polyphony in a good direction. IDK if GT7 exists in the state that it is without that push from T10. Even then, both of their most recent efforts are leagues away from their best work (which in both cases is the 4th installment). GT better be crunching right now because Kunos is in the rear-view mirror and closing fast. Assetto Corsa Evo has a chance to lap them both. Hopefully it reaches its potential.

chilichote said:
I actually understand that. I came from Gran Turismo 1-4, and while you could get a lot of cars there too, as I recall, they were rarely particularly relevant without further tuning. In FM5, I simply missed the connection to the first cars, where you had to earn money for turbos, better tires, etc. In FM5, I never felt like I had to put in a lot of effort. I understand that some people like it that way; in fact, I also like it in more arcade-like racers.
Click to expand...
Ideally there would be a simple menu option that let you play the campaign without having access to the DLC cars and money. That would be best of both worlds.
 
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Wulfer said:
GT is next, no competition ,no hunger, no focus, no drive. Sorry its the way these things go. GT had a reason to be the best and now that's been removed.
Click to expand...

Like chocolate chip cookies from your grandmother's oven, GT is made with love and care which is why someone like me, who doesn't care for simulation racers, can put so much time into any given entry (1135 hours in GT7 currently). That's not something that is easy to replicate as we found out time and time again with the also-ran that is FORZA.
 
simpatico said:
I think T10 pushed Polyphony in a good direction. IDK if GT7 exists in the state that it is without that push from T10. Even then, both of their most recent efforts are leagues away from their best work (which in both cases is the 4th installment). GT better be crunching right now because Kunos is in the rear-view mirror and closing fast. Assetto Corsa Evo has a chance to lap them both. Hopefully it reaches its potential.
Click to expand...

It's a topic that's been debated to death on GTPlanet and I generally tend to agree with those that think Polyphony was never competing. I don't believe Kaz has ever really spoken about any other game in interviews and I'd be really surprised if he knew or cared Forza existed. They've always kinda done their own thing, regardless of what the competition did or what fans wanted from them. Sometimes extremely basic features than existed forever in other games took a decade for GT to implements while they were innovating in other areas way ahead of others. I really do believe Kaz doesn't give a flying fuck what any other game does. As long as GT is selling, he'll do his own thing so Forza being dead is not gonna change anything.
 
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