Why do Devs believe they deserve second hand sales? (srs)

Well, they made the product. They are entitled to think whatever they want about it. Also, games aren't cars, so the comparison is off.

Who gives a shit if they made the product? The initial sale already took place!
Maybe other industries should take note and do the same to make you sympathisers happy.

All "preowned" comic book sales should be passed through Marvel/DC/etc so they get a cut since it's THEIR property, not yours.

Preowned toy sales (including those ones you keep in the package) should have a cut going to the original manufacturer AND the company that owns the rights to the character since it's theirs not yours.

Let's keep going, because obviously everyone that created anything deserves a cut of your money when you sell something they made.
 
Well the reason I buy secondhand is because I don't have the option to buy a new copy because it has gone out of print. So they want a sale without paying up for the print costs. No thank you.
 
No I can sell almost everything else i have, and who ever made it wouldn't get paid, video games shouldn't be treated any differently.
 
This is what 95% of NeoGAF doesn't understand:

I have a friend who works for Team 17 and he told me explicitly that within the RRP of a console game is the expectation that the game will be loaned to two other people, and sold pre-owned once.

So... devs already do get a cut of second hand sales - it's built into the original price!

I'm waiting to see if the games released for XBoned actually reflect this and are reduced appropriately. Unfortunately, I already know what the answer will be :-

There's pretty much a 0% chance of cheaper games under this policy. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they charged more and prices didn't drop for longer periods. Just because they can.
 
Devs would like it more if secondhand sales were reported so they could prove the aftermarket sales of their games... other industries do it, like cars. They could then get stuff greenlighted or proven. Car industry embraces used car sales and gets information on what everyone still prefers in the aftermarket, which influences decisions about designing new cars and gives them info on what years are good to bring back for retro designs.
 
He does make sense however if what we heard about MS is true then its not the type of system he is implying. Then, we can tell them to fuck off but we really don't have a choice.
Stop playing games until they do, or only buy what you think is fair. Maybe take a walk or run or get a dog, invite your neighbor over to have a BBQ or a real life game. Have a a real life adventure. I bet it'll be good for you. This needs to be the decade of consumer push back.

If we cut ourselves out of the equation, they'll realize they're more beholden to us than shareholders. And it'll be fun to watch them squirm until they get it right.
 
I'm curious how the growth of the Let's Play phenomenon will affect strong single player titles. The fact that someone can 'watch' an entire game without having to pay for it does open up a lot of curious doors. At GDC Twitch said that they are quickly becoming the strongest purchase influencer, with direct friend word of mouth being #1. So watching games have become more important than reviews.

Im not surprised, video game journalism is a joke and cannot be trusted at all. Which is also the developers/publishers fault, for bribing journalists and such shit. A Lets Play of a game shows the actual experience of the game.
 
Also I'm willing to bet there's going to be many cases with Microsoft's system where Microsoft actually spent more money recovering a fee from an used game sale than the actual fee they got.

I've been taken through stores and shown that certain games marked down to extremely low prices are actually losing that store money sitting there because the cost of the space is more than the game is worth. The same will happen with MS's system, where the cost of handling an used game will be more than the income off it's sale. It used to be just the store taking this loss, now MS wants to lose money too I guess.
 
Developers don't think that..and neither do the publishers...but they realized they were selling to supid people who don't know their rights as a customer and a user..so they just preached about how the used market is the devil and people believed it.
 
The person who sold it, already had that experience. It would be the equivalent of buying a movie ticket for 10 dollars at let's call it "moviestop", then after you watched the movie sell it "moviestop" for 2 bucks, then "Moviestop" sells the ticket to another person at 8 dollars.

The person that bough the ticket new and the person that bough it used, got the same experience. The movie creator only got his share for one ticket, while Moviestop got the profit from two.

Just continue down that road:

- several family members play a game after each other (OR EVEN TOGETHER!!!1111) I mean wth - can you get 1 movie ticket and take your whole family with you? Surely not. So this needs to get fixed as well. Every family member should pay $60 each.

And if that's done, well, the paying customer is able to play the game multiple times. MULTIPLE TIMES!!!!!! Can't watch a movie multiple times with only just one movie ticket. So you should pay $60 every time you play the game.

Yeah that sounds fair. Everyone pays every single time he/she wants to play a game. And if anyone complains, well just look at movie tickets!!! Xbone will save the whole industry. You filthy customers should be happy that we even let you play our games!!!11111
 
I don't think anyone thinks they actually deserve a cut from second hand sales, however vocal they are about it. I think they realize that they need that cut to keep their grotesque Rube Goldberg machine running, a machine whose products cost more and more to produce, a scaling procedure that thereby ironically makes these products more and more disposable in the minds of their consumers, something they're less and less likely to hold on to for very long.
 
Because they IMO do. That is why I never buy used games. I do sell some games from time to time but most of the time that is honestly not even worth it. When I sell my games for a few bucks I often wish I would have just thrown them away instead of selling em this cheap.
 
There's pretty much a 0% chance of cheaper games under this policy. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they charged more and prices didn't drop for longer periods. Just because they can.
Yep used games help drive down the price of new games. It's basic economics.

I'm glad there are a lot of GAFers in this thread who actually understand free market economics. As for the corporate apologists, how many physical items do you own that you cannot sell? The whole idea of DRM is bullshit.
 
Stop playing games until they do, or only buy what you think is fair. Maybe take a walk or run or get a dog, invite your neighbor over to have a BBQ or a real life game. Have a a real life adventure. I bet it'll be good for you. This needs to be the decade of consumer push back.

If we cut ourselves out of the equation, they'll realize they're more beholden to us than shareholders. And it'll be fun to watch them squirm until they get it right.

It was shown that Nintendo fixed prices and created a cartel to make sure they stayed up. Did they get boycotted? No. They didn't and Nintendo pricing has been the standard ever since (And Nintendo still get grumpy at anyone who dares lower prices on their stock).

The industry was shown to be ripping off consumers with overly inflated prices and putting pressure on retailers to keep them high. Did gamers boycott? No. They reacted negatively to people picking on the industry. But the general public did for a week and it pushed down prices for that Christmas (And then they shot up again when the core went back to buying at stupid prices).

Activision having no dedicated servers in the PC version of Modern Warfare 2? I don't even have to answer that since we all know what happened there.

The problem is that the overall reaction from the core to past industry bullshit has been "Fuck you, Got Mine" and now the core sees a problem. NOW they want to boycott. But the Horse has bolted so far from the stable it's in a Findus pie by now. How would you convince the general public to say "You should stay far away from this anti-consumer box" when the majority interacts with companies like Google and Facebook on a daily basis? Who buy music and movies from Apple. Who buy PC Games from a company notorious for it's DRM and dodgy "Offline" mode and killed what little was left of a small PC used market? Where the most popular videogame in the world is played on a smartphone, is free and knows where you are and what ads to serve to you and your children while you play it.

Anti-Consumer has been normalized. How can you push back when it's already commonplace?
 
Isn't the second hand market more or less the reason why used console games a so ridiculously expensive. Console games are up to 50% more expensive than PC/Steam games and the market is far too centered on preorders and day one sales, plus console games don't drop in price like PC/Steam games does.

Price drops and sales from the publisher could definitely make a dent in gamestops market and make some money for the publisher/developer instead of disapearing into shitty second hand stores. GameStop has huge profit margins on used games compared to unused games.
 
Isn't the second hand market more or less the reason why used console games a so ridiculously expensive. Console games are up to 50% more expensive than PC/Steam games and the market is far too centered on preorders and day one sales, plus console games don't drop in price like PC/Steam games does.

Price drops and sales from the publisher could definitely make a dent in gamestops market and make some money for the publisher/developer instead of disapearing into shitty second hand stores. GameStop has huge profit margins on used games compared to unused games.
Yes. Have you considered maybe they should get a better margin on new games?
 
I'm curious how the growth of the Let's Play phenomenon will affect strong single player titles. The fact that someone can 'watch' an entire game without having to pay for it does open up a lot of curious doors. At GDC Twitch said that they are quickly becoming the strongest purchase influencer, with direct friend word of mouth being #1. So watching games have become more important than reviews.

Honestly, that is part of my plan. If there is a game series that I care about story wise or something, and Xbone or PS4 implement the DRM features/online stuff, I'm not buying the consoles, but will watch the story of whichever game series I care about (or a new game that looks to have a good story) through either let's plays or downloading the cutscenes elsewhere.
 
Isn't the second hand market more or less the reason why used console games a so ridiculously expensive. Console games are up to 50% more expensive than PC/Steam games and the market is far too centered on preorders and day one sales, plus console games don't drop in price like PC/Steam games does.

I think you have it the other way around. The high price of games is why there's such a robust second hand market for games.
 
Yep used games help drive down the price of new games. It's basic economics.

I'm glad there are a lot of GAFers in this thread who actually understand free market economics. As for the corporate apologists, how many physical items do you own that you cannot sell? The whole idea of DRM is bullshit.

yep. this's an attempt to redefine what the terms 'to buy', 'to sell', & 'to own' mean. they are inserting what resembles a lease-like component...
 
What? The RRP has been basically unchanged since the 90s, although back then many games sold in much higher quantities.

Yes, and since the 90s, the expectation that the game will be sold pre-owned and lent to a couple of friends has been built into the RRP. They allow for that when setting the RRP.
 
Because they IMO do. That is why I never buy used games. I do sell some games from time to time but most of the time that is honestly not even worth it. When I sell my games for a few bucks I often wish I would have just thrown them away instead of selling em this cheap.

They do not actually deserve it, a physical product was sold, the end user has a legal right to sell a physical product to someone else that they bought.

As soon as a game stops being physical products and are sold as a license then that may change. And it will really suck when we still buy games for 60$+ and it is more of a rental license that can be revoked then actually owning a product.
 
Sooooo.... That is why 90% of the games sell for the same price.

Seems legit.

Please....

That has nothing to do with used sales. It's just regular price fixing (and probably a major reason the "not quite AAA" games aren't doing so well)
 
It was shown that Nintendo fixed prices and created a cartel to make sure they stayed up. Did they get boycotted? No. They didn't and Nintendo pricing has been the standard ever since (And Nintendo still get grumpy at anyone who dares lower prices on their stock).

The industry was shown to be ripping off consumers with overly inflated prices and putting pressure on retailers to keep them high. Did gamers boycott? No. They reacted negatively to people picking on the industry. But the general public did for a week and it pushed down prices for that Christmas (And then they shot up again when the core went back to buying at stupid prices).

Activision having no dedicated servers in the PC version of Modern Warfare 2? I don't even have to answer that since we all know what happened there.

The problem is that the overall reaction from the core to past industry bullshit has been "Fuck you, Got Mine" and now the core sees a problem. NOW they want to boycott. But the Horse has bolted so far from the stable it's in a Findus pie by now. How would you convince the general public to say "You should stay far away from this anti-consumer box" when the majority interacts with companies like Google and Facebook on a daily basis? Who buy music and movies from Apple. Who buy PC Games from a company notorious for it's DRM and dodgy "Offline" mode and killed what little was left of a small PC used market? Where the most popular videogame in the world is played on a smartphone, is free and knows where you are and what ads to serve to you and your children while you play it.

Anti-Consumer has been normalized. How can you push back when it's already commonplace?
I will treat this the way I treat another industry where the house is stacked against you, casinos. I don't play.

To me Steam is fair so I will do Steam as long as it continues to be fair. Wii U seems decent also. Tablet game prices are decent, and old systems still exist. I have options in my book. And if I don't? Real life is waiting, so I'm ok.


Anyway its a problem because right now you're the minority. But what happens when you're the majority and they lose billions? Suddenly the game changes. Spread the word bitch more and don't buy.
 
Just continue down that road:

- several family members play a game after each other (OR EVEN TOGETHER!!!1111) I mean wth - can you get 1 movie ticket and take your whole family with you? Surely not. So this needs to get fixed as well. Every family member should pay $60 each.

And if that's done, well, the paying customer is able to play the game multiple times. MULTIPLE TIMES!!!!!! Can't watch a movie multiple times with only just one movie ticket. So you should pay $60 every time you play the game.

Yeah that sounds fair. Everyone pays every single time he/she wants to play a game. And if anyone complains, well just look at movie tickets!!! Xbone will save the whole industry. You filthy customers should be happy that we even let you play our games!!!11111

Exactly, thank you. All these dumb false equivalencies.
Where can the games industry go after this becomes the new normal? A camera attached to your system that's always watching with facial recognition software so your family/friend can't play unless they've paid their $60? Oh wait, we might be halfway there on that one too. Doesn't MS have a patent for something similar with movies?
 
They do not actually deserve it, a physical product was sold, the end user has a legal right to sell a physical product to someone else that they bought.

As soon as a game stops being physical products and are sold as a license then that may change. And it will really suck when we still buy games for 60$+ and it is more of a rental license that can be revoked then actually owning a product.

At that point you'll see widespread lucrative piracy, the likes of which hasn't been seen since pre-Steam days on PC.

The folks who should really be fighting this hard are the mid-sized console publishers, because they will be the first to suffer.
 
I really don't think individuals selling their games has ever been the issue. But when corporations are selling games en masse and setting the second hand market then they are seen as competition.

This has seemed like a giant game of chicken where Microsoft took a black eye trying to get GameStop/amazon/etc. to share the profits of this market with themselves and the publishers.
 
Well... in theory, say you work your ass off for two years to make a music album. But it only sells 1000 copies, not nearly enough to provide for the 2 years of labor + costs. And everybody keeps lending out or selling their copy of the album. Over a period of 3 years, maybe 10.000 people enjoyed your work, but only 1000 of them paid you. Doesn't matter "where" or "who" has the physical copy at one time. Had all of those 10.000 paid for the music they did listen to, that would make a huge difference financially for the artist. For a movie, this applies even more, because once you've seen it, you won't be doing that again soon (in most cases, or not more than a couple of times), where as music can be appreciated more after listening to it 10 times. I think games work the same way as movies.

Of course, game publishers are a business, and not in it for the love of gaming. I also think there has to be made a distinction between game devs that are looking for a publisher for their game, and publishers that own IP's and are looking for a dev for their game. I think in the latter case, the dev can work for how long they get paid, and they'll get paid anyway. In the former, they are much more vulnerable i believe. Hence so many devs closed down the past years. For every publisher that goes out of business, a multitude of devs has gone out before.

One could argue if the price point might be the problem. Maybe games being lots cheaper would easily sell double the amount and people wouldn't feel the urge to sell/buy used games because it wouldn't be worth it.
 
I imagine it's as simple as "because they can". Perhaps mostly publishers rather than developers from what I understand, but the idea is the same.

The medium allows for blocking used products, so they sure as hell are going to take advantage of that. It means extra profits, people (in general) are usually greedy, consumers in many cases seem to have been persuaded to support corporate rights instead of their own rights, so why not?

I'll add my opinion to the many already saying that it makes no sense, and games are products and should be treated no differently. Selectively choosing the house analogy to prove that they OP's reasoning is off is quite unfair. How about comparing to paintings or books, blu-rays, or pretty much any other product existing.

As long as their customers accept this trend and reward them with their money, they'll do it because it's profitable.
 
Publishers and I guess some developers have bought into the "1 to 1 used game sale = lost new sale" myth, and they'll point to the whole Gamestop selling a used new release at a $5 discount. I know many people, myself included, will buy a used game when the cost is significantly lower than the original MSRP. What that usually means for most people is the publisher and the develope were never getting your $60 in the first place. A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
 
I don't think it's as cut and dry as people make it out to be, with any product really. There really has never been a good way to enforce this sort of thing. I can certainly understand the wanting to be able to sell something you bought. I can also understand putting time and effort into a creative project only to see it circulated without getting any benefit. I think it's a gray area, and people need to think about it from both the consumer and content creator point of view.
 
I don't think it's as cut and dry as people make it out to be, with any product really. There really has never been a good way to enforce this sort of thing. I can certainly understand the wanting to be able to sell something you bought. I can also understand putting time and effort into a creative project only to see it circulated without getting any benefit. I think it's a gray area, and people need to think about it from both the consumer and content creator point of view.
There's not supposed to be. The writer of Harry Potter series doesn't get paid from used books.

AT ALL.

Creative jobs are risk jobs. Regular jobs are regular jobs. That's the way the world works.

Stop believing otherwise.
 
There's not supposed to be. The writer of Harry Potter series doesn't get paid from used books.

AT ALL.

Creative jobs are risk jobs. Regular jobs are regular jobs. That's the way the world works.

Stop believing otherwise.

Which is good, because she has no right to secondhand sales.
 
They do not actually deserve it, a physical product was sold, the end user has a legal right to sell a physical product to someone else that they bought.

As soon as a game stops being physical products and are sold as a license then that may change. And it will really suck when we still buy games for 60$+ and it is more of a rental license that can be revoked then actually owning a product.
Great. And this is exactly the thinking that will get us into a download only era. Thanks man...
 
Since the moment I bought it I understand I'm the owner and can give/sell/lend or do whatever I want with it.

I'm sorry if people don't want to buy your game at the price you want to sell it.

I'm sympathetic with the developers and everything, but please, do not interfere with my consumer rights.
 
All these players sit at the same table. MS,Sony,Nintendo,Pubs,Gamestop and to some extent some high profile devs.

Since there isn't a voice at the table for us Jaffe, we can only complain.

Gamers voices ARE the table. Without gamers/customers, there is no table to even sit at. That is why this is all so simple to me: don't like it, don't support it and 'it' (whatever 'it' is) will die a swift and deserved death. Period.

David
 
Developers and Publishers are trying to counteract GameStop telling everyone to buy the used version of a game for a few dollars less. People who would otherwise be willing to buy a new copy and thus pass some money back to the people who actually funded and made the game are instead buying the used version and giving all of that money to GameStop.

If we didn't have GameStop, this wouldn't be an issue.
 
Great. And this is exactly the thinking that will get us into a download only era. Thanks man...

It's coming whether you like it or not, I at least would want some benefit from it, instant access to an entire game library, plus good deals. Their is no reason the game industry has to stick with arbitrary discs that serve no purpose anymore. If games are 60$,and digital downloads, and never go on sale and get revoked at a moments notice then the industry is going to have a problem sustaining any semblance of profitability. They won't be able to blame the piracy or used game boogie man, they might actually have to produce good games that sell and actually run game companies efficiently.

But like I said as long as this industry sells a physical product it is silly to think they are entitled to second hand sales, it goes against every other retail product in human history.
 
There's not supposed to be. The writer of Harry Potter series doesn't get paid from used books.

AT ALL.

Legally, sure. But what I'm saying is philosophically, I don't think it's that simple. I don't think it's fair to label a content creator as greedy scum, by being somewhat bothered by the fact that their work is being passed around for free, yet see no benefits from it, be it an author, game creator, musician, etc.
 
Because playing a game you rented, bought used, or a friend lent it to you is the same as piracy strictly from the publisher's point of view. You experience the same thing as someone who bought it retail but they receive no pocket money for their intellectual property that they worked hard to create. With the video game industry being loaded with by far the most vacant and exploitable consumer base of any entertainment industry, it's no surprise they moved in for the kill.
 
I guess publishers see games similar to movies, except games dont have the benefit of the box office or pay per view etc in addition to regular disc/digital sales. so to make up for that they think they should get a cut of every sale.

i think they are pushing this to ensure that everybody gets accustomed to games being akin to digital music and video rather than software, in that you cant resell it.
 
Legally, sure. But what I'm saying is philosophically, I don't think it's that simple. I don't think it's fair to label a content creator as greedy scum, by being somewhat bothered by the fact that their work is being passed around for free, yet see no benefits from it, be it an author, game creator, musician, etc.
This does not fall into reality. It doesn't. Consumers don't have infinite money. Gamestop is a HUGE boon to the industry. FUCKING HUGE. Yes you sell your games, but pretty much the only product in Gamestop stores is games. Games get sold to buy other games. Most games WILL fail. That's just how it is. If we lose our ability to sell games at a decent price we will have to become MORE picky or buy cheaper games or jump out altogether. Consumers do NOT have infinite money. And with 24 hour checks and account locking games, you've literally ruined gaming for many many MANY situations.

If games are too expensive, you can't be a "gamer". Which is probably a good thing to be quite honest.

Also, the goodwill id software created with Doom, and the goodwill Valve created with HL/CS cannot be measured by dollars, and despite all they gave away.. they still had truckloads of cash coming in.

So yes, they are greedy scum. And entitlement is them, not us.
 
If only they would.

That's kinda the key here, isn't it? Jaffe is saying 'hey, let the industry die', but you have gamers going 'but I don't want it to die'. People're playing chicken with the industry, but we all know who's going to step out of the way.
 
Because playing a game you rented, bought used, or a friend lent it to you is the same as piracy strictly from the publisher's point of view. You experience the same thing as someone who bought it retail but they receive no pocket money for their intellectual property that they worked hard to create. With the video game industry being loaded with by far the most vacant and exploitable consumer base of any entertainment industry, it's no surprise they moved in for the kill.


Tough crap, their are alot of laws in place all over the world that allow me as a consumer to sell physical products I own to other people.

Everyone in the game industry has known that forever and in previous gens this was never considered a problem. The issue is Game companies are having a hard time running their own ships properly and need someone to blame to keep their jobs. It used to be the piracy boogeyman and now it is used games. Attacking a perfectly legal behavior of your customer is just a bad thing to do.

The idea of blaming your customers is outright silly and ass backwards. We can legally sell used products, if you as an industry don't like that offer us a reason to keep your game or make it all digital and cheaper. If game companies are going to nuke the used market they NEED to do something for me the customer to make up for it.

Some things they can do

1. Digital download for all games at the exact release date, because it is easy and convenient for me to click on a new game and play it as opposed to going to a store or waiting for it to get delivered through the mail

2. 30-50% cheaper, you no longer need packaging, delivery, retail outlets, actually creating physical discs. You better pass some of those saving on to me for giving up my ownership rights.

3. Subscription packages, I would pay a little extra to get a deal on a future game in a game series. 60$ pays for the first 2 games in the series plus some DLC content. Might work with Madden or any sports game.
 
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