SlowRevolution
Member
Yeah, of course, but let's not give up and skip directly to that.
#PS4NoDRM #XboxOneNoDRM || Now do you "Believe?"
- Thread starter famousmortimer
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Yeah, of course, but let's not give up and skip directly to that.
Yeah, if this gets on CNN things could really blow up.
Miles Quaritch
Member
You seemingly don't understand how campaigns to force change work.
You don't sit around waiting to hear if they are reconsidering, you set about creating a level of pressure/backlash that's too big to ignore so that they start to reconsider based on that backlash.
That's how campaigns work. Did people wait to hear that Instagram were reconsidering their ToS change before fighting back against those changes? No, they fought back almost immediately which led to Instagram reconsidering.
It's pretty simple stuff to understand.
That's how it should be. Rude behavior doesn't benefit our cause at all.
Thing is, it certainly looks like MS's mind was set and they were just going to sneak that one up onto customers. The whole "yeah these are kind of options we're looking into" talk is BS. The whole thing, from the start, is by definition reactive.
All from a GAF thread. DAYUM!
I'll post another one i forgot about earlier
FUSE thread made me remember that i first got into Ratchet and Clank when my friend brought his copy round to a different friends house and we all took turns.Flightmare
Member
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I agree with this as well.
Keeping focus on Sony will hopefully mean the message stays strong and puts Sony in a position to address the issue. If they address it to our benefit, then MS will either be forced to follow suit or not (which is the case as it stands). MS has heard universal cries since their conference. And everything we have heard from them since, is that they have the intention to stay the course.
Insiders have confirmed for us that Sony is keeping quiet when it comes to this issue because there is no consensus on it. The campaign was designed specifically, the lend support and power to those within the decision making circles who want to steer clear of implementing what MS has implemented. The message staying focused on Sony will give them more power, and expose Sony to more public criticism that they can use in their discussions.
GameSeeker
Member
You go out of town for Memorial Day Weekend and NeoGAF explodes! (in a good way)
I've been fighting against DRM for over a decade, starting with the RIAA wars over music downloads and MP3 players in the late 90's. I was later involved with the MPAA wars over DRM for movies/television (see Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act - Fritz Hollings) and then was active in the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD war and the DRM war over what ultimately became AACS.
The good news is that all DRM fights are winnable. History has proven that DRM is usually un-necessary, and if DRM is really needed, the most minimally intrusive DRM solution always wins in the marketplace.
From the Microsoft and Sony perspective I would advise them to take any used game DRM scheme to outside counsel (in every country that they choose to sell in) for an unbiased opinion. Microsoft/Sony may be surprised at what they hear from outside counsel.
From the gamer perspective, we have a really good chance of winning. The Twitter campaign is an excellent start. It's much more effective than any "boycott" type of approach. Keeping the focus on Sony is the right approach. Sony is much more reasonable on DRM at the corporate level than Microsoft. Microsoft is likely a lost cause.
Even if the Twitter campaign fails, it doesn't mean we lost the war. It's only the opening skirmish. If Microsoft and/or Sony wants to launch a used game DRM scheme, they need to understand that the war is going to continue for years to come and they better be prepared for the consequences of fighting and losing. Any used game DRM scheme will be fought by all legal, governmental, and business means possible and in every jurisdiction that Xbones and PS4s are sold.
So keep these words in mind as we continue the DRM fight:
"We have not yet begun to fight!"
"We shall fight them on Twitter, we shall fight them on NeoGAF, we shall fight in the stores and in the streets, we shall fight across the Internet; we shall never surrender."
"Hell hath no fury like a gamer scorned."
(with apologies to John Paul Jones, Winston Churchill and William Congreve)
I've been fighting against DRM for over a decade, starting with the RIAA wars over music downloads and MP3 players in the late 90's. I was later involved with the MPAA wars over DRM for movies/television (see Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act - Fritz Hollings) and then was active in the Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD war and the DRM war over what ultimately became AACS.
The good news is that all DRM fights are winnable. History has proven that DRM is usually un-necessary, and if DRM is really needed, the most minimally intrusive DRM solution always wins in the marketplace.
From the Microsoft and Sony perspective I would advise them to take any used game DRM scheme to outside counsel (in every country that they choose to sell in) for an unbiased opinion. Microsoft/Sony may be surprised at what they hear from outside counsel.
From the gamer perspective, we have a really good chance of winning. The Twitter campaign is an excellent start. It's much more effective than any "boycott" type of approach. Keeping the focus on Sony is the right approach. Sony is much more reasonable on DRM at the corporate level than Microsoft. Microsoft is likely a lost cause.
Even if the Twitter campaign fails, it doesn't mean we lost the war. It's only the opening skirmish. If Microsoft and/or Sony wants to launch a used game DRM scheme, they need to understand that the war is going to continue for years to come and they better be prepared for the consequences of fighting and losing. Any used game DRM scheme will be fought by all legal, governmental, and business means possible and in every jurisdiction that Xbones and PS4s are sold.
So keep these words in mind as we continue the DRM fight:
"We have not yet begun to fight!"
"We shall fight them on Twitter, we shall fight them on NeoGAF, we shall fight in the stores and in the streets, we shall fight across the Internet; we shall never surrender."
"Hell hath no fury like a gamer scorned."
(with apologies to John Paul Jones, Winston Churchill and William Congreve)
Sweet!
Fenderputty
Banned
This "campaign" is not about creating a backlash - it's about conveying this message to Sony and all the relevant parties:
source
This was our message from the first minute - changing it this late in the cycle has the potential to water this working "campaign" down...
I say: "Never change a running system"!
Also this is a good view of how much press coverage we have had:
http://www.ps4nodrm.com/press-coverage.html
Might be slightly out of date now (?) but still, lots of coverage
I didn't listen to the podcast, but I wonder how many of them borrow games from IGN. The net effect is the same for them except IGN doesn't pay for the games they get from publishers.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Do not underestimate the power of GAF!
everyday math
Banned
Miles Quaritch
Member
I won't derail the thread any further after this post as the thread seems set on solely focusing on Sony and that's perfectly fine in the short term.
That's essentially the idea of this campaign, to show that there's a strong dislike/hatred/backlash in the gaming community towards anti used DRM and people would like Sony not to follow suit.
having only one platform support used games won't stop it eventually reaching that platform when it's a success on its main competitor? You can fight for a short term victory or you can fight to ensure it never happens. People seem happy fighting for the short term win, great...but that's not sensible or forward thinking.
If the One is even a moderate success in its anti used DRM, no manner of campaign will save the PS4 from suffering the same fate. It'll be far too late to do anything. You have to ensure that the company that's pushing ahead with this plan realises how much of backlash there is so they don't force retailers to change their set up, so they don't make publisher deals, etc.
Yep, it's really telling. Lots of other gaming sites and blogs have picked this up though.
Just nuts, great job!
SilentFlyer
Member
Also this is a good view of how much press coverage we have had:
http://www.ps4nodrm.com/press-coverage.html
Might be slightly out of date now (?) but still, lots of coverage
Surprisingly, IGN Germany and IGN Italy picked up the post but neither IGN UK nor IGN US.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Also this is a good view of how much press coverage we have had:
http://www.ps4nodrm.com/press-coverage.html
Might be slightly out of date now (?) but still, lots of coverage
Yeah, there's a lot more that needs to be added. I had a doctor's appointment, lol. Should be home in 30-40 minutes depending on traffic.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
I understand them pretty well. The Instagram campaign was much, much larger than this as Instagram were supposedly taking ownership of all photos uploaded to the service. People got fired up about that.
It's difficult to get gamers fired up about anything, especially against the tide of corporatist articles from the likes of PA and IGN.
The fact is that the MS side didn't organise after the reveal. Neither did the Sony side tbh, so sure this might be in response to info about changing attitudes at Sony, but the motivation exists because people believe something can be achieved. Especially because SCE executives seem quite tuned into the fanbase and gamers. The same cannot be said of MS, the only Xbox person who really engages with the fans is Major Nelson who is essentially a glorified PR mouthpiece.
Like I said, you need to get off your high horse about this. Modus has already changed the thread title to include MS now take the console wars shit elsewhere. Enough of this "oh well Sony fans blah blah" it's tiresome. This is about ensuring at least one platform supports used games. The other will quickly fall in line if that is achieved. Honestly it is more likely that Sony will make the jump first, another reason why this campaign has been focussed on them.
Schobeleth
Member
I usually side with the guys on Podcast Beyond but I am VERY against their opinion that gamers who buy used games are entitled. Not everyone can get games new or afford them new, and not everyone works in the industry where you can just loan out games too. Who knows how many games they actually buy themselves.
I tweeted at Greg, Andrew and Colin and so far nothing. I've met the guys at IGN at E3 before, they seemed cool and they've responded to me on twitter before but if they're fans of Playstation they should want Playstation to do as well as it can - not screw consumers over in lieu of publisher's ridiculous practices.
backbreaker65
Banned
Do you think that DRM/Used Games will reduce the amount of titles you purchase being very selective in the games you buy. Because you know you're pretty much stuck with it and the replay value has to be high with great A.I.? I think big titles will suffer as gamers will not spend so freely.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
I think we should start putting some pressure on IGN to write an article. I've seen some people tweet to @IGN about not covering a gaming story that NBC covered.
I retweeted a few of those. An IGN story would certainly raise more awareness around the issue.
I retweeted a few of those. An IGN story would certainly raise more awareness around the issue.
Did my part. However is there anybody who did not see thing coming? No way one system has restrictions and the other does not.
People are up in arms about this but in the end it will be accepted and I don't think it will hurt either company enough where they regret this decision.
People are up in arms about this but in the end it will be accepted and I don't think it will hurt either company enough where they regret this decision.
Krusenstern
Banned
That's what I don't understand. Why do the other IGN subsidiaries report about it but the english ones not?
I finance my purchase of new games by selling my old ones whether it's on EBay or at CEX. I'm far from alone in that.
If I couldn't sell my old games, I would have less money to buy new releases. Simple as that.
And it would probably be written with about as much neutrality as a Ben Kuchera piece.
BlastProcessing
Member
I think Microsoft has already gotten back a ton of feedback due to the Orth imbroglio. The Orth backlash was nuclear heat. The fact that that didn't convince them to change course has, rightfully I would argue, caused people to lose faith that Microsoft will change course due to consumer feedback.
I think the best way to make Microsoft take pro-consumer steps right now is to make them compete with a company with a sensible DRM policy. Sony is the best hope to do that.
Because the UK/US is Xbox land? I dunno.
maybe the European branches of IGN are under a different management branch.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
US and UK is where MS has the largest presence, these subsidiaries are probably in bed with MS and their publishing partners tbh.
Flightmare
Member
I absolutely agree!
After the whole Orth fiasco I expected them to be prepared for the "hard" questions after their reveal - and obviously they weren't. If Orth wasn't enough then I don't know what would be.
"Convincing" Sony to be a white-knight for consumer rights seems to be the right move in order to get the attention of the whole industry.
Krusenstern
Banned
Well, so much for IGN.
SolidSnakex
Member
At one point they brought up how their readers mail to them saying that they (the IGN guys) aren't bothered by this type of DRM because they get their games for free. I don't think Colin even tried to argue out of that while Greg just said that he's now trying to buy more games because he has more money. In other words they mostly just confirmed what their readers were telling them.
Miles Quaritch
Member
They did apparently change their minds on some things. Like the requirement to check in once every 24hrs was apparently once every 3mins before the Orth outrage. Outrages, backlashes, etc an incite change...
having only one platform support used games won't stop it eventually reaching that platform when it's a success on its main competitor. You can fight for a short term victory or you can fight to ensure it never happens. People seem happy fighting for the short term win, great...but that's not sensible or forward thinking.
If the One is even a moderate success in its anti used DRM, no manner of campaign will save the PS4 from suffering the same fate. It'll be far too late to do anything. You have to ensure that the company that's pushing ahead with this plan realises how much of backlash there is so they don't force retailers to change their set up, so they don't make publisher deals, etc.
But yeah, I'm on my high horse for pointing out what most people seemingly can't seem to grasp or are wilfully ignoring for whatever reason.
Anyway, that's really my last post on this. I won't derail this great thread any further. As i said in the PM, you've done a brilliant job famousmortimer.
Utmost respect for you mate.
PJV3
Member
I think people should be realistic about MS, they may have screwed up the message, but it sounded fairly clear that they have a system in mind.
Getting the used games system in place by launch, and getting retailers ready isn't something they can leave much longer.
If GAF manages to change that, then it's a stunning achievement.
Getting the used games system in place by launch, and getting retailers ready isn't something they can leave much longer.
If GAF manages to change that, then it's a stunning achievement.
No that whole system is part of the problem
TacticalFox88
Banned
If this gets on CNN and the rest of the media, Sony pretty much has to abide by our wishes, unless they want to lose a lot of face.
Okay maybe not *have* too, but you get the idea.
Okay maybe not *have* too, but you get the idea.
Flightmare
Member
Well again, in MS's case, it does look like they reached that stage already. Unless they were somehow planning to set up their 300,000 servers and agree with retailers and put the whole infrastructure up a couple of days before launch.
SilentFlyer
Member
I don't think pressurizing anyone to write on the subject matter would be good idea. It will rather effect in negative way and maybe writer will put his/her own frustration instead covering it neutrally.
Flightmare
Member
Doubt they would cover it neutrally anyways
Audioboxer
Member
We have an article on NBC Tech and we may be getting something on CNN tech
Thanks Stuart!
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