Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 3 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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You just revealed the premise of my crossover fanfiction, wherein the Stark children are taken in by Tony Stark and trained in Avengers mansion. They all get Iron Man suits and Arya uses the Cosmic Cube to bring back Ned and the others and they get armors too. Then Thor let's Ned borrow Mjolnir before everyone heads back to the other and takes over, raining fire on everyone from the Helicarrier. It's gonna be awesome and wayyyy better than the stinky old books.

Somewhere out there, this story is actually being written. I'd bet money.

This is possibly the worst thing I've ever said, but god damn if I wouldn't want to see RDJ's Tony Stark just wandering around King's Landing, shooting the shit and ripping on Tywin.

And yeah, that Thor/GoT S2 poster remains the stuff of legends.
 
Petyr-Baelish-lord-petyr-baelish-30781869-500-278.gif
 
one thing annoying me about the way this show goes is -- we'll have some kind of horrible tragedy and as a viewer I'll cry out for vengeance (ned stark losing his head) 2 seasons later I'm still waiting for Joffrey to die all the while more unanswered tragedies are being added to the backlog. It's a frustrating show to watch.
 
I wonder since Stannis named Joffrey's wrong name he will get a free pass.... Joffrey Lannister is his name. :p :/ I want Arya to kill Joffrey

Technically Joffrey would be a bastard so his last name would be based on whatever land he was born in. Assuming he was born in King's Landing, his true name would be Joffrey Waters.
 
Well, Jamie did lose his hand, and Tyrion and Cersei were put into shit marriages. Not the same thing, but still.

The marriages were tywin's doing though
They may be miserable, but politically speaking they are better off, whereas everyone else just seems to die

Ideally Lady Olenna would just kill off everyone bar Tyrion and take the throne for herself, but I doubt that is going to happen :(
 
one thing annoying me about the way this show goes is -- we'll have some kind of horrible tragedy and as a viewer I'll cry out for vengeance (ned stark losing his head) 2 seasons later I'm still waiting for Joffrey to die all the while more unanswered tragedies are being added to the backlog. It's a frustrating show to watch.

If those leeches were indeed as effective as they have possibly shown themselves to be, we will probably see Joffrey go sooner rather than later.
 
Lol, insults. Cool, man. Really productive. Does that mean everyone has to become a better show watcher? There's a reason everyone loses their shit when a Stark dies or gets hurt and wishes for Joffrey and Cersei to go jump off a cliff. It's because there is a clear line between good and bad. If that's not the intention of the writer and EVERYONE is supposed to be viewed as neutral, then yes, something is wrong with the writing.

Please tell me what's so gray about the Starks in general. What's so evil about Ned, Robb, Bran, Arya, and Jon?

What's so good about Joffrey, Cersei, and Tywin (other than the dialogue for him being awesome)?

I said there are gray characters but there is a clear divide between good and bad in this show when it comes to the major houses. If that's not the creators intention then perhaps it's not good writing.

Jamie, Varys, and Littlefinger are very clear examples of neutral/gray characters. That much I can see and agree with.

Keep preaching the truth, brother.
Sure there are characters in each house that don't fit, but in general I think most people get the impression that Starks are noble and good and are unfairly shat on by the cynical powerhungry Lannisters.
Its pretty much noble and stupid Harry and the gryffindors vs Draco and the slytherins
 
This is possibly the worst thing I've ever said, but god damn if I wouldn't want to see RDJ's Tony Stark just wandering around King's Landing, shooting the shit and ripping on Tywin.

And yeah, that Thor/GoT S2 poster remains the stuff of legends.

Imagine the snarky conversations between Tony and Tyrion. IMAGINE THEM.
 
Didn't Robb, have, like, an army? How could they so easily have wiped out his whole, you know, army? As in tens of thousands of men? And shouldn't they at least showed us how they did it? It's not exactly quick and easy to stealth kill a MOTHERFUCKING ARMY.

They were all drunk. They were all feasting and drinking, not expecting to be assaulted by their host.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but up until the Red Wedding scene in that particular episode it felt like there was a bit of humor injected into the episode. That made it all the more screwed up.
 
Frey's army is pretty big, isn't it? Robb winning the war depended on having the Freys support.

The stealth kills can only go so far, but even when they lose the surprise factor, they still have the advantage since Robb's army would be completely disorganized by that point.

Not to mention a lot of them were probably pretty tipsy as well. If not completely drunk.
 
Up until a few episodes ago Jaime was still the scumbag who pushed Bran out a window, and killed his own cousin, yet book readers have been in here telling us how wrong we are about him and/or the Lannisters for the longest time.

We don't need to be told we're not watching the show correctly by people who have 3+ seasons of future events in mind. Now that we know the real reason he killed The Mad King, and we've seen his progression with Brienne, yeah he's not such a bad guy apparently.
 
Oh man great episode!!

I remember reading about this event and the book made it seem like Arya also died. (Chapter ends by an axe hitting Arya to the back of the head), until i kept reading and saw the Arya chapter. And Arya being my favorite character, i was stunned.
 
As a book reader, I'm glad they did the scene in question justice. It still got to me despite knowing what was going to happen.

Episode 10 is going to have to be fantastic to top it, and has the potential to be depending on when they end it.
 
I watched the episode this morning. The ending left me jaw-dropped as I could not believe what I was witnessing. I had heard GRRM talk about a heart-breaking scene he wrote that involved a wedding, but that was over a year ago and completely forgot about it. I only realized it as the credits started rolling.

As gut-wrenching as it was, none of my four favorite character were harmed. Those are Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon and Arya. Lil' Arya came very close to getting axed also; had she so been, I would have flipped the fuck out.

Right now, I fucking hate Tywin Lannister. I do not love to hate him. I want him to die a very painful death. I want Arya to be trained by Jaquen so that she becomes the best and most skilled bellatrix in all of Westeros and the other continents. I want her to drive a blade into both Tywin and Joffrey and see the life being drained of them.
 
As a book reader, I'm glad they did the scene in question justice. It still got to me despite knowing what was going to happen.

Episode 10 is going to have to be fantastic to top it, and has the potential to be depending on when they end it.

I expect 10 to be very subdued, and just show the repercussions of what happened. Nothing to crazy.
 
Lol, insults. Cool, man. Really productive.

Please tell me what's so gray about the Starks in general. What's so evil about Ned, Robb, Bran, Arya, and Jon?

What's so good about Joffrey, Cersei, and Tywin (other than the dialogue for him being awesome)?

I said there are gray characters but there is a clear divide between good and bad in this show when it comes to the major houses. If that's not the creators intention then perhaps it's not good writing.

I know this wasn't directed primarily at me but the greyness of Robb, Ned and possibly Jon (although certainly not as much as the others) is related to their short-sighted focus on honour and loyalty, regardless of how damaging it will be. Ned is by far the easiest way to demonstrate this whereby his focus on being honourable has had devastating impacts on his entire family. He could have swore loyalty to Joffrey immediately as Cersei requested or sided with Renly and, while discussing the impacts of these choices we'd be getting into unfounded hypotheticals, he would not have endangered his entire family as much as stubbornly refusing out of honour and knowingly being branded a traitor; a rather selfish and inconsiderate act which would taint the family name. He did, ultimately, break his honour for the better of others but it was (clearly) too late. The same can be argued for the murder of Daenerys which he went against because it was an dishonourable decision but in order to prevent a future invasion it was the right choice. With Robb, there are similar events such as the beheading of the Carstark elder because it was the 'just' thing to do, ignoring the huge ramifications that it could lead to. He endangered everything out of a belief in justice and did so because it was merely his belief, despite the large opposition to the decision. The Starks (primarily Ned, Robb and, to a lesser extent, Jon Snow) believe they're doing the right, just, and honourable thing in many cases and as isolated instances maybe they are right, but as a collection of events it's almost narcissistic as they endanger countless others for self satisfaction.

With regards to Joffrey, he's probably one of the few 'non-grey' characters on the show but if you wish to find sympathy within him it would be as a result of his formation, why he is as he is; warring parents, growing up incredibly spoilt and without control, being filled with dreams of grandeur, a domineering grandfather and spiteful mother both obsessed with preserving the family lineage with a drunken father (or should that be step-father) who continuously boasted about his heroism and the lives he had taken/violence he had committed. As for Cersei and Tywin, their primary 'good' characteristics are related for the wish to preserve the family lineage and legacy with a deep desire to improve the 'situation' for themselves and their children. This does, unsurprisingly, end up as a flaw as they are as recklessly focused on this as the Starks are on honour and they pay the price by being incredibly unhappy but there is an always an awareness of the impact of the choices they make, they don't view decisions in a bubble.

There's actually quite a contrast in the Starks and the Lannisters in this way I feel. The Starks, seemed, extremely content in themselves (well, Catelyn, Robb and Ned while simultaneously ignoring their grief) but were in a rather poor situation, seen as treacherous, their home destroyed and having suffered large casualties (almost wiped out with this episode). The Lannisters on the other hand are mostly unhappy (Cersei unhappy with her approaching marriage, Tyrion unhappy with his, Tywin unhappy with his nephew, Joffrey the only happy one of them all) but have themselves placed in an excellent situation for the family; ruling the land, dominating almost the entirety of Westeros (Stannis and the Greyjoys are the only people in open rebellion if I haven't misremembered) while they are incredibly rich and have suffered few casualties (actually, I can't remember any Lannister dying with the exception of the two children by Carstark).

I don't think it's really fair to look at one house as 'good' and one as 'bad'. Both of them have significant flaws. Both of them have good intentions, the Starks' honour and nobility and the Lannisters' desire to improve their family's status, but they both bring about a plethora of flaws.

EDIT: Although, I don't think every character is 'neutral', there's an entire spectrum of characters. If all of the characters were neutral/good/bad, the show would be bland. The diversity is part of what makes it (I feel) particularly good, and many characters (and there are 'many characters') so compelling (I'm ignoring that this can be perceived as a negative for the show in the belief that it struggles to balance the characters well which I'd somewhat agree with but seems to fall under 'pacing' as opposed to a problem with the characters themselves).
 
one thing annoying me about the way this show goes is -- we'll have some kind of horrible tragedy and as a viewer I'll cry out for vengeance (ned stark losing his head) 2 seasons later I'm still waiting for Joffrey to die all the while more unanswered tragedies are being added to the backlog. It's a frustrating show to watch.

I have a feeling it'll be like this all the way. Vengeance doesn't seem to be the theme of this story, just people constantly being fucked over.
 
I've created a moral compass for all major characters which is 100% correct

Eddard Stark - Lawful Good
Catelyn Stark - Lawful/Chaotic Good
Robb Stark - Lawful Good
Sansa Stark - Lawful Good
Arya Stark - Chaotic Good
Bran Stark - Chaotic Good
Jon Snow - Lawful Good
Theon Greyjoy - Chaotic Neutral

Tywin Lannister - Lawful Evil
Tyrion Lannister - Chaotic Good
Cersei Lannister - Neutral Evil
Jaime Lannister - Chaotic Neutral
Joffrey Baratheon - Chaotic Evil

Daenerys Targaryen - Neutral Good
Jorah Mormont - Lawful Neutral?

Bronn - Chaotic Neutral
The Hound - Chaotic Neutral/Evil
Varys - True Neutral
Peter Baelish - Neutral Evil
Stannis Baratheon - Lawful Neutral
Melisandre - Lawful Evil
Ygritte - Chaotic Neutral
Sam - Neutral Good
Brienne - Lawful Good
Margaery Tyrell - Chaotic Neutral
Lady Olenna Tyrell - Chaotic Good?
Thoros of Myr - Chaotic Good
 
I know this wasn't directed primarily at me but the greyness of Robb, Ned and possibly Jon (although certainly not as much as the others) is related to their short-sighted focus on honour and loyalty, regardless of how damaging it will be. Ned is by far the easiest way to demonstrate this whereby his focus on being honourable has had devastating impacts on his entire family. He could have swore loyalty to Joffrey immediately as Cersei requested or sided with Renly and, while discussing the impacts of these choices we'd be getting into unfounded hypotheticals, he would not have endangered his entire family as much as stubbornly refusing out of honour and knowingly being branded a traitor; a rather selfish and inconsiderate act which would taint the family name. He did, ultimately, break his honour for the better of others but it was (clearly) too late. The same can be argued for the murder of Daenerys which he went against because it was an dishonourable decision but in order to prevent a future invasion it was the right choice. With Robb, there are similar events such as the beheading of the Carstark elder because it was the 'just' thing to do, ignoring the huge ramifications that it could lead to. He endangered everything out of a belief in justice and did so because it was merely his belief, despite the large opposition to the decision. The Starks (primarily Ned, Robb and, to a lesser extent, Jon Snow) believe they're doing the right, just, and honourable thing in many cases and as isolated instances maybe they are right, but as a collection of events it's almost narcissistic as they endanger countless others for self satisfaction.

With regards to Joffrey, he's probably one of the few 'non-grey' characters on the show but if you wish to find sympathy within him it would be as a result of his formation, why he is as he is; warring parents, growing up incredibly spoilt and without control, being filled with dreams of grandeur, a domineering grandfather and spiteful mother both obsessed with preserving the family lineage with a drunken father (or should that be step-father) who continuously boasted about his heroism and the lives he had taken/violence he had committed. As for Cersei and Tywin, their primary 'good' characteristics are related for the wish to preserve the family lineage and legacy with a deep desire to improve the 'situation' for themselves and their children. This does, unsurprisingly, end up as a flaw as they are as recklessly focused on this as the Starks are on honour and they pay the price by being incredibly unhappy but there is an always an awareness of the impact of the choices they make, they don't view decisions in a bubble.

There's actually quite a contrast in the Starks and the Lannisters in this way I feel. The Starks, seemed, extremely content in themselves (well, Catelyn, Robb and Ned while simultaneously ignoring their grief) but were in a rather poor situation, seen as treacherous, their home destroyed and having suffered large casualties (almost wiped out with this episode). The Lannisters on the other hand are mostly unhappy (Cersei unhappy with her approaching marriage, Tyrion unhappy with his, Tywin unhappy with his nephew, Joffrey the only happy one of them all) but have themselves placed in an excellent situation for the family; ruling the land, dominating almost the entirety of Westeros (Stannis and the Greyjoys are the only people in open rebellion if I haven't misremembered) while they are incredibly rich and have suffered few casualties (actually, I can't remember any Lannister dying with the exception of the two children by Carstark).

I don't think it's really fair to look at one house as 'good' and one as 'bad'. Both of them have significant flaws. Both of them have good intentions, the Starks' honour and nobility and the Lannisters' desire to improve their family's status, but they both bring about a plethora of flaws.

EDIT: Although, I don't think every character is 'neutral', there's an entire spectrum of characters. If all of the characters were neutral/good/bad, the show would be bland. The diversity is part of what makes it (I feel) particularly good, and many characters (and there are 'many characters') so compelling (I'm ignoring that this can be perceived as a negative for the show in the belief that it struggles to balance the characters well which I'd somewhat agree with but seems to fall under 'pacing' as opposed to a problem with the characters themselves).

Thank you. I really appreciate this post, and I don't mean to argue with any of your points because I do perceive some of your points differently than you. I don't really see most of what you said about the Starks or Lannisters as an example of their neutrality, but I can now see how others may.
 
one thing annoying me about the way this show goes is -- we'll have some kind of horrible tragedy and as a viewer I'll cry out for vengeance (ned stark losing his head) 2 seasons later I'm still waiting for Joffrey to die all the while more unanswered tragedies are being added to the backlog. It's a frustrating show to watch.

Because I enjoy suffering, This is why I like the show. I have been waiting for Stark vengeance for three years, and I have yet to get it.
 
Yea, this episode really clarifies something for me; Game of Thrones is terribly written. It has a few undeniable strengths, mainly character building amd world building, but that doesn't make up for its overwhelming flaws. I wasn't too upset by the red wedding. It was shocking, but heavily foreshadowed. But what it reveals about the show is its terrible structure, which you alluded to in your post. The structure of game of thrones is essentially:

Exposition, exposition, exposition, exposition, exposition, tragic twist, repeat.

That's not how you tell a story. A story should have a character pursuing a goal until they achieve, or fail to achieve, said goal. It's the pursuit of a goal that progresses the plot. Ned Stark trying to solve John Aryn's murder is plot progression. Tyrion trying to feret out Cerci's spy in the small council is plot progession*. Rob Stark telling his wife that he might want to attack Casterly Rock at some point in the future is NOT plot progression. Rob Stark having the exact same conversation with his mother is also not plot progression, it's exposition - two characters sitting in a scene dumping information on the audience. The are far too many scenes, even episodes, in this series that are nothing but exposition. A skilled writer can move the plot forward and deliver information in the same scene, but this rarely happens in Game of Thrones.

*Apologists, please note that I did not use any action sequences as examples of proper plot progression. The ad homonym dismissal of critics as simpletons looking for more action is, and has always been, baseless.
What about Sansa's story? Danny's? What about Bran? Theon? Jamie? They all had progression, character development, and a fair bit of action to boot (well maybe not sansa, but she got twice as dumb so that counts for something). Robb's slowly decaying army was also progression IMO. Jon Snow, I agree, but a few characters does not make an entire show "terribly written".

EDIT: Wait, how is Cersei Neutral evil? She's not really "evil" IMO.
 
Damn just watched it. Haven't had that many emotions to a TV episodeor movie in a while. Right when Cat heard the creepy music my gut started to turn.

And lol at all the people crying and saying they're going to quit the show.
 
Ending the episode with no music was the REAL punch in the gut. Fuck! I finished it ten minutes ago and I can't find the strength to stand up.
 
What about Sansa's story? Danny's? What about Bran? Theon? Jamie? They all had progression, character development, and a fair bit of action to boot (well maybe not sansa, but she got twice as dumb so that counts for something). Robb's slowly decaying army was also progression IMO. Jon Snow, I agree, but a few characters does not make an entire show "terribly written".

EDIT: Wait, how is Cersei Neutral evil? She's not really "evil" IMO.

As you conceded, Sansa has never actively tried to pursue a goal at any point in the series, which is why people hate her. Theon has been tortured through the entire season; he hasn't done anything. Bran at least is trying to reach a destination, but most of his scenes consist of him sitting in front of a campfire while the new kid explains how warging works. Bran was only really proactive when he took over the wolves.

Jaime certainly has struggled to free himself and save Brienne from a bear, which is why his storyline has been the most entertaining. But I never said the show was devoid of plot progression, just that there is too little of it.
 
Though I'm a book reader, this post contains no spoilers. Let me ask you a question.

Robb Stark continued to wage a war after he lost his home, his people slaughtered, his fields burned, the north lost instead of swallowing his pride and bending the knee just because his daddy died. A common theme of the series is that the lordlings wage their game of thrones and the common people suffer. When the brotherhood or common folk speak of armies they speak of both wolves and lions. Someone like Hot Pie lives a fine life living in the middle of the woods making food for an inn keep while watching his ass in case it is ransacked by soldiers. All because Robb Stark won't end his stupid war he lost the second he beheaded Karstark, and married Talisa.

How in the world is Robb a good guy? He is just as irresponsible, narcisstic and idealistic as the rest of the lords vesting for power and unable to see the forest from the trees.

He was an idiot with some of his decisions, but fighting for independence from someone like Joffrey is never a bad thing in my opinion. There will be sacrifices, but in general I find the cause perfectly just, reasonable, and "good" (mainly because Joffrey is a lunatic). I'd feel differently about Robb if someone reasonable was on the Iron Throne. If he was still waging war if the king was actually pretty good, then it'd be pointless and "bad".

In a way, are you saying it doesn't matter who rules what in Westeros for the average commoner as long as there is peace? Meaning Robb disturbing the peace for the commoner is generally a bad thing? Just making sure that's what you mean.
 
The reactions and outcry for "The Red Wedding" are crazy. Does this mean that future TV series are going to stop playing it safe and keep trying to get that GoTs reaction from audiences, whether it is right for the overall narrative or not?
 
The reactions and outcry for "The Red Wedding" are crazy. Does this mean that future TV series are going to stop playing it safe and keep trying to get that GoTs reaction from audiences, whether it is right for the overall narrative or not?

God I hope not. i loved this episode but I absolutely hate it when they flock to the next "big thing".
 
The reactions and outcry for "The Red Wedding" are crazy. Does this mean that future TV series are going to stop playing it safe and keep trying to get that GoTs reaction from audiences, whether it is right for the overall narrative or not?

Doesn't The Walking Dead do that for a lot of people already? I honestly don't care much for those characters...
 
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