Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 3 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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robotzombie said:
Ned and Robb were characters meant to die. The story isn't about them. You as the viewer/reader just want them to live because they are presented as the closest thing to a cliche hero that there is. People really seem so susceptible to just rooting for whoever they are told is the "main character" or the hero that its easy to construct a story that turns this on its head and makes something like Robb's death a gutpunch, when it really is a reasonable consequence of the story.
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I don't think that's quite the right angle to look at it from. It's not so much that people are falling in line like sheep to root for whoever's presented as the main character. I'd say that it's more that there are certain tools a writer can use to make a character more (or less) sympathetic, and that most writers will use these tools on their lead characters (for obvious reasons). In this case, these tools were used on Ned, Robb, Cat, and really the Starks in general. Meaning people were strongly sympathetic towards them, and accordingly torn up when things went badly for them.

Some of these sympathy tools include:
-being a good and honorable person (though it's important that they not tip over the line into sanctimoniousness--this is one reason Ned is sympathetic and Stannis isn't so much)
-caring about the welfare of others (which has been used to increase sympathy for Jaime a lot this season)
-being active as opposed to passive (one reason Arya is more sympathetic than Sansa)
-being smart and self-aware (one reason Tyrion is so sympathetic)
-being an underdog (Tyrion, Arya, Robb)
-having human and understandable flaws
-having unfair things happen to them, often for reasons outside their control (the Starks in general--also one reason Theon isn't as hated after this season)
-having POV/insight into the character's motivations, emotions, and so on

It's actually very clever. GRRM (and the showrunners) used these pretty broadly to generate a lot of sympathy/identification, on the level of your standard main character(s). And then sneakily started also using them on some of the characters that appeared, at first, to be villains! Which means that even while we were being set up for a horrible fall as the characters we've come to sympathize with are killed off and their hopes and dreams crushed into the mud, we've also been set up to be caught, to have fresh characters that can pick up the slack, that we can follow and root for just as we did the previous ones. Only now, there's a by-God absolutely real sense of tension whenever they get into a dangerous situation, because we know that there are no guarantees of anything.
 
Cyan said:
It's actually very clever. GRRM (and the showrunners) used these pretty broadly to generate a lot of sympathy/identification, on the level of your standard main character(s). And then sneakily started also using them on some of the characters that appeared, at first, to be villains! Which means that even while we were being set up for a horrible fall as the characters we've come to sympathize with are killed off and their hopes and dreams crushed into the mud, we've also been set up to be caught, to have fresh characters that can pick up the slack, that we can follow and root for just as we did the previous ones. Only now, there's a by-God absolutely real sense of tension whenever they get into a dangerous situation, because we know that there are no guarantees of anything.
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An excellent observation! I came to just about the same conclusion after reading the first three books. There are only two "problems" with this approach. First, it takes a long time to execute properly, which is not a problem when you want a long story. Second, there is no end to the killing unless either the characters or the system die. In other words, either everyone has to die or you need a restart point. Now, we all know that "Winter is coming" and with it problems almost none of the protagonists are prepared to deal with properly.
 
Cyan said:
I don't think that's quite the right angle to look at it from. It's not so much that people are falling in line like sheep to root for whoever's presented as the main character. I'd say that it's more that there are certain tools a writer can use to make a character more (or less) sympathetic, and that most writers will use these tools on their lead characters (for obvious reasons). In this case, these tools were used on Ned, Robb, Cat, and really the Starks in general. Meaning people were strongly sympathetic towards them, and accordingly torn up when things went badly for them.

Some of these sympathy tools include:
-being a good and honorable person (though it's important that they not tip over the line into sanctimoniousness--this is one reason Ned is sympathetic and Stannis isn't so much)
-caring about the welfare of others (which has been used to increase sympathy for Jaime a lot this season)
-being active as opposed to passive (one reason Arya is more sympathetic than Sansa)
-being smart and self-aware (one reason Tyrion is so sympathetic)
-being an underdog (Tyrion, Arya, Robb)
-having human and understandable flaws
-having unfair things happen to them, often for reasons outside their control (the Starks in general--also one reason Theon isn't as hated after this season)
-having POV/insight into the character's motivations, emotions, and so on

It's actually very clever. GRRM (and the showrunners) used these pretty broadly to generate a lot of sympathy/identification, on the level of your standard main character(s). And then sneakily started also using them on some of the characters that appeared, at first, to be villains! Which means that even while we were being set up for a horrible fall as the characters we've come to sympathize with are killed off and their hopes and dreams crushed into the mud, we've also been set up to be caught, to have fresh characters that can pick up the slack, that we can follow and root for just as we did the previous ones. Only now, there's a by-God absolutely real sense of tension whenever they get into a dangerous situation, because we know that there are no guarantees of anything.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly, though my post sounded a lot harsher towards people rooting for Ned/Robb than I intended. Although, I will say that those tools were applied way more (and better) to Ned than to Robb/Catelyn. Ned truly was a character built up the right way and the rug was pulled out from under us. However, I don't think Robb and Catelyn were really all that sympathetic comparatively and I feel that people put more into them than was really there simply because they were Starks and we wanted them to avenge Ned. I do feel there is a little bit of, "Ned's dead! Who do we like now?" and the story just points to Robb and goes "here, this is the guy you are supposed to like now".

But you are definitely right about the fact that there are all these other characters who've shown a new side and become more sympathetic right beneath our noses, which is pretty brilliant and very important in terms of keeping the story going along after these big deaths.
 
RedShift said:
It wasn't like Robb's death came out of nowhere, his death came as the direct result of a big mistake he made.

There was an awesome post a while back about how the Starks see themselves as "the good guys", which is clearly how he justified marrying whatsherface (RIP) to himself, "I'm the good guy, I have to marry my true love".

If he hadn't broken his oath he wouldn't be dead. When you don't pay your debts your lenders are going to turn to the people who famously do.
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We talked about that today at work, actually. Then again, the fuckers that killed Rob and company did break bread. They thought they were safe. What I'm more interested in at this point is who is going to come after the lannisters. And what role Tyrion will play in this. He's the only honorable person that's a Lannister, so it truly makes me wonder what's going to happen when Stansa hear's what happened. Isn't the north technically Tyrion's now?
 
Cyan said:
I don't think that's quite the right angle to look at it from. It's not so much that people are falling in line like sheep to root for whoever's presented as the main character. I'd say that it's more that there are certain tools a writer can use to make a character more (or less) sympathetic, and that most writers will use these tools on their lead characters (for obvious reasons). In this case, these tools were used on Ned, Robb, Cat, and really the Starks in general. Meaning people were strongly sympathetic towards them, and accordingly torn up when things went badly for them.

Some of these sympathy tools include:
-being a good and honorable person (though it's important that they not tip over the line into sanctimoniousness--this is one reason Ned is sympathetic and Stannis isn't so much)
-caring about the welfare of others (which has been used to increase sympathy for Jaime a lot this season)
-being active as opposed to passive (one reason Arya is more sympathetic than Sansa)
-being smart and self-aware (one reason Tyrion is so sympathetic)
-being an underdog (Tyrion, Arya, Robb)
-having human and understandable flaws
-having unfair things happen to them, often for reasons outside their control (the Starks in general--also one reason Theon isn't as hated after this season)
-having POV/insight into the character's motivations, emotions, and so on

It's actually very clever. GRRM (and the showrunners) used these pretty broadly to generate a lot of sympathy/identification, on the level of your standard main character(s). And then sneakily started also using them on some of the characters that appeared, at first, to be villains! Which means that even while we were being set up for a horrible fall as the characters we've come to sympathize with are killed off and their hopes and dreams crushed into the mud, we've also been set up to be caught, to have fresh characters that can pick up the slack, that we can follow and root for just as we did the previous ones. Only now, there's a by-God absolutely real sense of tension whenever they get into a dangerous situation, because we know that there are no guarantees of anything.
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I think you're absolutely right, but at the same time, for someone like me, it's going to be hard to get invested in what the other characters do because I feel like death is right around the corner. It detaches me, at least, because it feels like the characters that were really built up have all had bad shit happen to them. Tyrion and the Starks. I was rooting for Dany (aka Sugar Tits the Dragon Rider), but now for all I know she might just fall down a flight of stairs in the 6th season and never conquer shit.
 
Funky Papa said:
Tyrion is a pretty likeable fellow as far as drunken and lecherous beasts go, but I wouldn't call him honorable.
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He showed his honor by what he did with Sansa. He may be lecherous and all that, but anybody else in that family, and even people outside of it, would have violated that girl over and over. Especially for the time period they're representing.
 
RoninChaos said:
He showed his honor by what he did with Sansa. He may be lecherous and all that, but anybody else in that family, and even people outside of it, would have violated that girl over and over. Especially for the time period they're representing.
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I doubt Jaime would be very interested in Sansa. Just not his type.
 
jaxword said:
Hasn't it been made clear that revenge is not justice?

Frey got revenge for Robb's betrayal.

The Greyjoys got revenge on the Starks for taking Theon.

Rast got revenge on Jorah, in a generalized sort of "I've always hated you."
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While this might be true, I don't think "revenge" and "justice" are so different when it comes to House Stark. Rooting out the Lannisters from Kings Landing would have accomplished both of those goals, since there's a bastard pretender on the Iron Throne in the first place who unjustly murdered the Hand of the King, and his mother was responsible for the previous Hand's murder.

I don't think Robb made the right decision, but I do think the Red Wedding was unjustified. Walder Frey and House Frey are going to pay, one way or another.

With all that being said, I hope that at least one Stark gets some Lannister Blood before this whole thing is over. I'm pulling for Arya, but Sansa is close enough to make that happen, too.

jaxword said:
I doubt Jaime would be very interested in Sansa. Just not his type.
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Of course not. They aren't related.
 
Released said:
It's a family. If you think back to the first season, Lord Umber is the guy who got his fingers bitten off by Robb's wolf and then laughed it off.
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ahh okay cool i remember him. i guess the tullys and umbers are the only families left with allegiance to the starks.
 
Released said:
It's a family. If you think back to the first season, Lord Umber is the guy who got his fingers bitten off by Robb's wolf and then laughed it off.
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Probably knew a few wood shop teachers.
 
puebla said:
ahh okay cool i remember him. i guess the tullys and umbers are the only families left with allegiance to the starks.
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The Starks have more bannermen/houses that are loyal to them. But they can't/won't show so many characters.. It's just the nature of it being a tv show. So most of them seem to be kinda like faceless masses lol.
 
suzu said:
The Starks have more bannermen/houses that are loyal to them. But they can't/won't show so many characters.. It's just the nature of it being a tv show. So most of them seem to be kinda like faceless masses lol.
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good to hear, cuz right now it just seems like the lannisters have no worries and the north is theirs.
 
Why was Osha being so weird about how she got past the wall? Was it just because she didn't want them to go north of it? I feel like if that was it, she would have just said so. "I won't tell you, figure it out yourself." That got me thinking about something else: how is it possible that wildlings invaded so frequently that people had to abandon their homes and this supposedly fertile land?

I looked at the viewers guide, and Castle Black is at the middle of the wall. If they are going the direct way from Winterfell, that means they are near the middle of the area just below the wall. Which means that wildlings in boats wouldn't be able to reach that area frequently enough that it becomes a burden and people abandon the area, except by climbing the wall directly. So that led me to two conclusions

1)They climb the wall very often
2)They combine both sea landings and wall climbing and stagger the timing.

Now option 1 is possible, since Ygrette said that bearded guy has climbed the wall half a hundred times. Option 2 is the one I wanted to focus on first, though.

How likely is it for enough wildlings to be a) strong enough to climb the wall, b)lucky enough to not fall off and c)lucky enough to not get caught so that they can invade often enough to be a nuisance? And when they do, it must be INCREDIBLY difficult to time the raids so that the ones landing on the coast arrive just before/after the ones climbing the wall. Mance made such a big deal about uniting all of the wildling tribes, so I doubt they're used to working together in groups bigger than maybe 10 or 15. So, to me, that option is gone.

Leaving us with the choices that either the wildlings climb the wall so often that it becomes a problem that's big enough for people to leave OR....

There is a secret way to get past the wall.

That explains why freaking useless Sam was in this episode talking about some stupid old gate you could get through if you knew the way. That explains Osha's shiftiness about answering the question of how she got past the wall. Maybe Sam will get back and tell Jon about this gate when he tells them about the invasion. Of course, assuming they don't just chop off Jon's head immediately for being a traitor. I just didn't understand why Sam was in this episode...what did he contribute? The scene was maybe two minutes, and the rest of the episode was focused on things that were clearly WAY more important than fat, can't seem to lose weight even when he's wandering in the woods and probably starving, can't seem to keep up with world saving daggers SAM. Seriously, why not use that minute and a half to check in with a Lannister or show Dany's siege?

Knowing what just happened though, Sam and the girl will probably get killed before telling whoever is left at the Wall and this season ends with the White Walkers coming in through the back door to murder everyone and begin the night that never ends. Ironically, it would fit with what that supposedly good looking guy did this episode.
 
In hindsight, the show did a pretty good job of setting up all the events leading to the red wedding.

Without it, Robb Stark would have continued to believe he was invincible and would still have lost the war.

Tywin's forces and alliances were just too much.
 
Oh Stewart.

hnG15LM.gif

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And the best part
 
Nameless said:
Who's even left at Castle Black besides Aemon Targaryan and a few dregs?
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I think that's it. They're pretty undefended. I hope there isn't another massacre this season :(. I wonder if that guy ever got to king's landing. The one that the commander sent so that he and Jon didn't kill each other. He sent him to show the hand of the undead thing to Joffrey, but we haven't seen him. Maybe he came back with new recruits and we just weren't shown? But even then, they'd be inexperienced cannon fodder...not ready in time for Mance's army.
 
I've noticed that I've reacted differently to the events of the Red Wedding than the vast majority of people.

It seems that most people now view George RR Martin to be a sadist who simply wants the bad guys to win and bad things to happen and we're heading for a story where the Lannisters continue to torture the Starks forever and the bad guys always win.

I really think GRRM is just setting everyone up... brilliantly.

In Martin's world, Robb Stark was simply too obvious of a hero. As shocking as Ned's death was, if the show had simply followed the formula of "father dies, son takes up mantle and avenges him and delivers justice" - well, that's a story that's been done before too.

But now what remains are the scattered Stark children, all who find themselves in challenging circumstances.

Try to find the odd duck here...

Robb - was made King of the North after the death of his father

Sansa - has been victimized and imprisoned by the Lannisters since Season 1, has had her world view shattered. She has learned life is not a song.

Arya - was there for the scene during the murder of her father, mother and brother. has been on the run with no where to go for 2 years.

Bran - was crippled by Jaime Lannister.

Jon - he's the same age as Robb, grew up in the same home, yet instead of being given Winterfell, he was given the Wall for life.

...

Robb stands out. He was the only overdog in the group.

It seems that most people simply can't envision how the Starks are going to make a difference now that Eddard, Robb and Cat are gone.

But their deaths only intensify our rooting interest in the remaining Starks. How badly do you want the Stark children to find their way in this brutal world? I've never been rooting for a group of fictional characters so hard.

I think what George RR Martin is really doing is setting up a revenge arc that will ultimately be more satisfying than anything we've experienced in fiction before. That of course doesn't mean all of the Starks will have a happy ending (a true happy ending is already impossible).

...

I've gone on a bit - but all I'm really saying is that while most people seem to think Martin is sadistic / the story is going to simply shift to Daenerys now, I think that is the further thing from the case. I think this is still a Stark revenge story, but in a completely unexpected way - and the stakes are higher than ever.
 
I think what most people miss is that even the "baddest" characters want peace for Westeros.

None of these kings ever wanted people to suffer, just kneel.
 
Speevy said:
I think what most people miss is that even the "baddest" characters want peace for Westeros.

None of these kings ever wanted people to suffer, just kneel.
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Cept for Joffrey. Or mystery torturer. Or Roose, the troll. He purposely kept Jaime waiting to hear what happened to Cersei, just to see him squirm. He was with the Lannisters by then, so he should have been treating him a little bit better than that, I think.

Then there's Littlefinger, who has explicitly stated that he doesn't want peace.
 
kellycandthedragons said:
Cept for Joffrey. Or mystery torturer. Or Roose, the troll. He purposely kept Jaime waiting to hear what happened to Cersei, just to see him squirm. He was with the Lannisters by then, so he should have been treating him a little bit better than that, I think.

Then there's Littlefinger, who has explicitly stated that he doesn't want peace.
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Well in Littlefinger's case I think he doesn't want peace because he wants power for himself.

I'm sure if he was King of Westoros he'd welcome peace in the realm. But as Varys put it, he'd be King of the ashes if that's what it took to get there.
 
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