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[EatChildren]

Man, Tywin is totally on top of that. If Cersei is half-aware of some underhanded plot, Tywin is probably already pulling the strings of half the players.

He is, but I'm not sure how far his political reach goes. He seems pretty damn fucking good at making people disappear, but he also has a tendency to ignore and misinterpret important information. He failed at countering Robb's rebellion. He does not think Daenerys is a threat yet (the argument could be made they're not). Sometimes I think he underestimates how ruthless the Tyrells will be.

Tyrell's in charge would probably be better than Lannister's in charge no? Their alliance would lead to a pretty stable realm seems like.

Tyrells are one of my favourites houses. I'd like them on the Throne.

My man.

Also, Cersei *is* an arrogant bitch, but she knows that Margaery is playing everybody like a flute because she's also been using her feminine wiles through her whole life, probably even more so before she became the queen. It takes a bitch to know one.

Yeah, I agree. And I think that's what Cersei fears the most. She's mostly been the only woman in Joffrey's life, and even though he's a little cunt who treats her like shit, she was/is and at least believes she's the strongest female influence on his life. Margaery will usurp her, if she already hasn't. And if she doesn't have a foothold through Joffrey, she has nothing.

EDIT: I also think she genuinely loves her piece of shit son and knows deep down he's an impulsive, moronic psychopath. He's a danger not just to everyone, but himself. The further he strays from Cersei, the greater the probability someone will take him out. And many, many people want that.

 

[Kozak]

He Definitely cares about North. If Jamie was available he wud have wed him to Sansa.

And for what reason? Nobody in the North would accept a Lannister as Warden of the North.

And if the Lords in the North decide to revolt, Casterley Rock and Kings Landing is quite a distance to cover. We've seen North Lords betray and revolt against a King they named themselves.

Greatjon - "Why should they rule over me and mine from some flowery seat in the South? What do they know of the wall or the wolfswood?"

Theres almost no value in Winterfell to the Lannisters except killing the Stark family line.

The North will never bend.

edit:

Although this is entirely irrelevant because Tywin did marry a Lannister to Sansa and Robb is dead

 

[Azih]

And for what reason? Nobody in the North would accept a Lannister as Warden of the North.

And if the Lords in the North decide to revolt, Casterley Rock and Kings Landing is quite a distance to cover. We've seen North Lords betray and revolt against a King they named themselves.

Greatjon - "Why should they rule over me and mine from some flowery seat in the South? What do they know of the wall or the wolfswood?"

Theres almost no value in Winterfell to the Lannisters except killing the Stark family line.

The North will never bend.

Fair enough, claiming the North and HOLDING the North are two completely different things. For all intents and purposes the North is completely ungoverned right now.

Still, as you say, neutering Winterfell is what the Lannisters wanted and that's what the Lannisters got.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Started rewatching S1 last night. It's strange how young everyone looks. It's also strange too see everyone in the same place, Robb, Theon, Cat, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Jon Snow, Joffrey and Sansa, all interacting and playing nice knowing how much they will end up hating each other.

I also wanted to see if there was any Arrested Development style foreshadowing and chuckled at a scene where Cersei told Jamie that he should be "hand" of the king.

 

[EatChildren]

Although this is entirely irrelevant because Tywin did marry a Lannister to Sansa and Robb is dead

Tywin expected Robb to lose the war. Sansa is his bargaining chip. I don't think he's concerned about how much the North hates him, so much as how much loyalty they'll have to the Stark name. He thinks Bran and Rickon are dead. That leaves Sansa as the heir to the throne, followed by the missing Arya.

Puts the North in an iffy position of how much they're willing to sacrifice at the expense of Sansa Stark.

 

[BobTheFork]

When everything is over, way down the line, the only thing I really want is for Jaime and Brienne to get married. Well, that and Tyrion to fucking murder is father and sister and make Shea lady of Casterly rock

 

[HyruleGuardian]

let's cool down a bit out here

Cool down a bit?

Tell me another story with a scope 10,000 manuscript pages long in which the main character dies, his son dies, and then the other children are scattered throughout the world and find vengeance?

I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but I'd certainly like to here a name!

Otherwise your statement doesn't hold up.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

Or GRRM, knowing that people are now rooting for them that much harder knows that killing them off will make them that much more upset...

Honestly though, I'm ridding it out to see where things go. I mean I knew there was a lot more story to go and I wasn't expecting Rob to be the one guy to slay the Lanister scum, take the throne, survive the dragons, deal with the wildlings, and repel the white walkers. Yet I feel a bit cheated. Sure, OK, kill him off, but he didn't even manage to be more than a thorn on the Lanister's side. All he did was win a bunch of battles that didn't really seem to get him any closer to the Lanisters. Sure he had Jaime, but he lost him. Overall, he seemed more like nuisance to the Lanisters and when he finally had a chance to escalate things just a tad more ... he and close family get fucking trashed in a manner like I've never seen - let alone expected. It would have been nice to see that perhaps the Starks were capable of making the Lanisters squirm a little ya' know? Play up this clash of two sides. But no. All Tywin had to do was write some letters and bribe a few people and the Starks as a establish household are wiped from existence.

That's all I have to say about that.

Is it supposed to be mandated that Robb at least takes out 1 other major Lannister with him before he dies?

As I keep saying, I think it will be far more satisfying seeing Sansa/Arya/Bran/Jon being the Starks to truly win vengeance - especially now that the stakes have been raised since not only is their father dead, but so is their mother, their brother, and their home has been burned.

The vengeance stakes are so much higher now.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I thought he murdered them because they betrayed him? Which thing are you talking about specifically?

He told her a story after she was sad he killed the infant in the brothel of a prostitute he had that was depressed and he had her killed the same as Joffery ended up killing her.

 

[-tetsuo-]

How? Why??

The guy literally has zero redeeming qualities at this point.

The Batman voice is one.

 

[Sajjaja]

Cool down a bit?

Tell me another story with a scope 10,000 manuscript pages long in which the main character dies, his son dies, and then the other children are scattered throughout the world and find vengeance?

I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but I'd certainly like to here a name!

Otherwise your statement doesn't hold up.

But there are no main characters Gotta break free of that pretense.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Cool down a bit?

Tell me another story with a scope 10,000 manuscript pages long in which the main character dies, his son dies, and then the other children are scattered throughout the world and find vengeance?

I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but I'd certainly like to here a name!

Otherwise your statement doesn't hold up.

That isn't what is happening at all.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

List of characters I'm rooting for...

Bran
Arya
Sansa
Jon
Rickon
Stannis
Davos
Tyrion
Jaime
The Hound
Varys
Littlefinger
Samwell
Jorah
Theon

List of character I'm rooting against...

Tywin
Joffrey
Cersei
Pycelle
Melisandre
The Mountain
Daenerys
Daario
Boltons
Freys

I'm neutral for the Tyrells.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

That isn't what is happening at all.

You think the Starks will all go quietly into the night until the end of the story?

I'm not saying that I think the Stark children will use their own hands to stab Lannisters.

But I do think the people who are counting the Starks out are wildly mistaken.

They are the heart of this story!

Why am I the only person in this thread who seems to believe that?

 

[Liquidsnake]

I imagine her story will kick into gear in season 5. One more season for her to get her shit together then she'll start moving across the sea to start her campaign.

What does she want exactly? To sit on the iron throne herself?

 

[shanshan310]

Littlefinger

Nope. nopenopenope.

I used to like him, but now he really gives me the creeps. He's so slimey.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

Nope. nopenopenope.

I used to like him, but now he really gives me the creeps. He's so slimey.

He's the one character I have listed that is more villainous than he is good in my 'root' section.

Not going to justify why, I just do.

 

[Vashetti]

What does she want exactly? To sit on the iron throne herself?

Yes, she believes it is hers by right.

 

[Liquidsnake]

If anyone should have claim to it, it should be Stannis.

The Lannisters weaseled their way to the throne. The Starks just wanted to be left alone, why did they pay the iron price for just wanting to live, and be left alone.

 

[Balphon]

If anyone should have claim to it, it should be Stannis.

The Lannisters weaseled their way to the throne. The Starks just wanted to be left alone, why did they pay the iron price for just wanting to live, and be left alone.

Daenerys's father was essentially deposed in a coup. Stannis's "claim" can't be any stronger than hers.

 

[Liquidsnake]

Daenerys's father was essentially deposed in a coup. Stannis's "claim" can't be any stronger than hers.

By Roberts people?

Sorry if I ask stupid questions, I am just trying to understand.

 

[Dany]

If anyone should have claim to it, it should be Stannis.

The Lannisters weaseled their way to the throne. The Starks just wanted to be left alone, why did they pay the iron price for just wanting to live, and be left alone.

Because its called the 7 kingdoms, not 6.

 

[Balphon]

By Roberts people?

Sorry if I ask stupid questions, I am just trying to understand.

Yes. Though they obviously had their reasons.

 

[Azih]

If anyone should have claim to it, it should be Stannis.

The Lannisters weaseled their way to the throne. The Starks just wanted to be left alone, why did they pay the iron price for just wanting to live, and be left alone.

They should really have stayed in the North.

And I think Daenerys really has a stronger 'legal' claim than Stannis. The way they justified Robert as King was really a load of hogwash.

Edit: So the quick history is that the King beofre Robert was a Taragyen and was crazy. The Starks and Baratherons rose up in rebellion against him for some very good reasons and won (party cuz the Lannisters were on the Taragyen side and betrayed him). The Taragyens were almost completely wiped out with Daenersy and her brother Viserys being the only surviving refugees. Robert took the throne because his grandmother was a Taragyen or some such so he had a little Taragyen blood.

Daenerys on the other hand is the daughter of the last Taragyen King. Kinda direct connection compared to Robert's trumped up one.

 

[RDreamer]

Daenerys's father was essentially deposed in a coup. Stannis's "claim" can't be any stronger than hers.

Well, realistically there'd be some sort of right of conquest that starts the lines and rights over again. I mean, Daenery's father only had the right because someone before him conquered everyone and the line started there. Robert conquered and deposed the mad king, and so the rights start from that point. If she wishes to seize that right she must conquer like Robert did. otherwise technically the transfer of rights and claim goes to Stannis.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

legal claim smeagal claim, a true claim doesn't matter. It's only the illusion of making other people think you have a claim that matters.

Stannis arguing that he derives the throne from Robert is every bit as valid of an argument that Daenerys derives the throne from Aerys.

Basically, Stannis is Israel and Daenerys is Palestine.

And in any case, the Iron Throne has existed for 300 years. Before that, you still had 12,000 years+ of history of men in Westoros.

If you really want to make this sort of argument, you might as well argue that all of Westoros should be given back to the Children of the Forest, since they were there first. (like the Native Americans)

 

[Hot Coldman]

Ultimately, rightful claims mean fuck all if the people who nab the throne want to ignore it, so Daenerys' claim mostly lies in the whole "I've got these fucking dragons" thing she has going on.

 

[RDreamer]

They should really have stayed in the North.

And I think Daenerys really has a stronger 'legal' claim than Stannis. The way they justified Robert as King was really a load of hogwash.

Not really, in my opinion. Robert conquered and thus had the kingdom by right of conquest. They all bent the knee and acknowledged him king and acknowledged his right to what he conquered. He dies and that right goes to Stannis. If Daenerys wants to claim anything now she must conquer, just like anyone else would have to.

Realistically you only have as much right to the throne as the people allow you, and that means force and mindshare. If people believe you're king and will bend their knee, then you're king. If you can force them to believe you're king through conquest, then you're king.

 

[Liquidsnake]

They should really have stayed in the North.

And I think Daenerys really has a stronger 'legal' claim than Stannis. The way they justified Robert as King was really a load of hogwash.

Edit: So the quick history is that the King beofre Robert was a Taragyen and was crazy. The Starks and Baratherons rose up in rebellion against him for some very good reasons and won (party cuz the Lannisters were on the Taragyen side and betrayed him). The Taragyens were almost completely wiped out with Daenersy and her brother Viserys being the only surviving refugees. Robert took the throne because his grandmother was a Taragyen or some such so he had a little Taragyen blood.

Daenerys on the other hand is the daughter of the last Taragyen King. Kinda direct connection compared to Robert's trumped up one.

Thank you, I understand much better now.

 

[EatChildren]

There was no one true king of Westeros. Just lords and people doing their shit as they do, pushing out their chest and calling themselves rightful rulers of their conquered domains.

Aegon Targaryen conquered Westeros, created the Iron Throne and King's Landing, and claimed himself king of everything.

The Targaryens ruled for ~300 years, the last being Aerys Targaryen, aka the Mad King. He was overthrown by Robert Baratheon, who took the throne in his family's name.

Renly and Stannis want the throne because they believe it is rightfully theirs based on Robert. Daenerys wants the throne because she believes it's rightfully hers based on Aegon and Aerys. Tywin, Littlefinger, and anybody else who wants the throne want it because they know "rights" are total imaginary horseshit and power comes to those with the will and strength to take it, just like the lord of old.

Nobody has any right to shit. It's whoever gets it and can hold it.

 

[Balphon]

Well, realistically there'd be some sort of right of conquest that starts the lines and rights over again. I mean, Daenery's father only had the right because someone before him conquered everyone and the line started there. Robert conquered and deposed the mad king, and so the rights start from that point. If she wishes to seize that right she must conquer like Robert did. otherwise technically the transfer of rights and claim goes to Stannis.

Right, which is why I said their claims are on roughy equal footing. Though I concur that the show has repeatedly demonstrated that the thing which really matters is the strength to back up your claim.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

I think Varys summed up the true nature of the game of thrones with the riddle he told Tyrion in Season 2.

 

[Sajjaja]

I think Varys summed up the true nature of the game of thrones with the riddle he told Tyrion in Season 2.

And that riddle is.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpL6Fwu0wkw

(comments are disabled)

Ah, thank you.

 

[TCRS]

I think Varys summed up the true nature of the game of thrones with the riddle he told Tyrion in Season 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpL6Fwu0wkw

(comments are disabled)

 

[DyTonic]

All I wanna know is where is this story headed, it's all over the place.

 

[Violet_0]

I believe the people of Westeros deserve a constitutional republic

 

[Azih]

Yeah but remember that they picked Robert to take over from the dead mad King because he had a bit of Taragyen blood in him. So they felt the bloodline argument was important and also why even Taragyen children were massacred to enforce Robert's claim and eliminate rivals. Bloodline is important to these people and Daenerys has that point fully wrapped up in her favour.

 

[Sajjaja]

Yeah but remember that they picked Robert to take over from the dead mad King because he had a bit of Taragyen blood in him. So they felt the bloodline argument was important and also why even Taragyen children were massacred to enforce Robert's claim and eliminate rivals. Bloodline is important to these people and Daenerys has that point fully wrapped up in her favour.

Wasn't it already said that Eddard could have been King if he simply sat on the throne before Robert?

 

[Exterminieren]

I believe the people of Westeros deserve a constitutional republic

Game of Constituencies doesn't quite have the same ring.

 

[Vagabundo]

I believe the people of Westeros deserve a constitutional republic

That's when the series Jumps the Shark in season 9.

 

[televator]

Is it supposed to be mandated that Robb at least takes out 1 other major Lannister with him before he dies?

As I keep saying, I think it will be far more satisfying seeing Sansa/Arya/Bran/Jon being the Starks to truly win vengeance - especially now that the stakes have been raised since not only is their father dead, but so is their mother, their brother, and their home has been burned.

The vengeance stakes are so much higher now.

You don't see my point. Whether Rob killed 1 or all the Lanisters is secondary. I never even said killing someone was "mandated." Given that Rob was going to die anyway, I think it should have been illustrated that the Starks were at least a force to be reckoned with to the Lanisters. It would make the possible rise of one or all the remaining Stark children that much more pronounced as a very real threat to the Lanisters. Instead we get that the Starks are no more threatening, and probably less so, than the families at Castamere. Kinda lame IMO...

And again, nothing is mandated. I'm just stating how I feel about this turn of events on the show, now that I had more time to process and get over the trauma a bit.

 

[Azih]

Wasn't it already said that Eddard could have been King if he simply sat on the throne before Robert?

True, I'm not denying that might make right and the right of conquest isn't enough to take over. But it was decided that Robert had the strongest claim of all the rebels because of the bloodline argument.

 

[Speevy]

Mance Rayder as the king of Westeros

Hand of the king Edmure Tully

What could go wrong?

 

[Balphon]

Game of Constituencies doesn't quite have the same ring.

We could always call it House of Cards instead.

 

[xenist]

- Absolutely... not. Remember little Jon Snow ?
- Absolutely... not, Lyanna and Brandon meant everything to him, do you really think he would have cut the head off Jaime knowing the same kind of fate was awaiting his brother/sister ?
- Maybe, maybe not, it wasn't Robb idea to begin with he just went with the flow, young Ned wouldn't have done better, old Ned probably yes but it's not even sure, Stannis was nothing and there was both Lannister's and Renly's army against them.

Overall Robb did exactly what his father had done at the same age, except his father won due to some circumstances (being friendly with the Baratheon the Arryn and the Tully being one of them).

-If Jon Snow is Ned's child I'll eat a hat.
-If that was the right thing to do he totally would have. The Lyanna thing is totally different from the current situation. It would have been the same situation if he tried to negotiate for her release instead of going to all out war.
-Starks have zero legitimate claim to a throne. They can only usurp it. Rebel. Eddard Stark the Usurper. Does it sound like him?

 

[Carcetti]

Team Stannis! Saw this list on another forum and well, facts are facts. It was a no spoilers thread and didn't see any book spoilers so here's a copy paste.

Top Reasons to be on Team Stannis:

1) He has sex with Melisandre.
2) He got Davos' son killed, chopped off his fingers, and threw him in a dungeon; Davos still worships him.
3) He has a sweetheart lizard-faced daughter.
4) He is apparently the chosen one of the only real religion in Westeros.
5) He is the first one off the ships into the flaming Blackwater Bay.
6) He has to be wrestled away screaming from King's Landing despite facing certain death.
7) He acknowledges the Kingslayer as Ser Jaime Lannister a full season and a half before Brienne made it cool. Then he calls him the Kingslayer immediately after. Stannis is the only person in the realm to understand that Jaime is both of those things, not one or the other.
8) Have you seen his table? It's a badass map of the continent. He also had sex with Melisandre on top of it.
9) He opted not to kill Gendry, who seems like a decent guy.
10) He deployed a shadow assassin to kill his brother.
11) He includes the relatively harmless Balon Greyjoy on his hit list because fuck him, that's why.
12) He has eaten cats, dogs, horses, and rats.
13) "They'll bend the knee or I'll destroy them," my favorite line of the series.
14) He sent out letters throughout the realm telling everyone Joffrey is an inbred bastard, just to fuck with him.
15) He straight up puts curses on people using magic spells and shit.
16) Ned Stark thought he was the one true heir.

 

[kellycandthedragons]

I'm pretty sure Frey only did this because they were out of bed after hours.

Seriously though, that actor is great at playing old dudes you just wanna punch in the face. Filch was always begging them to bring back the torture punishments.

 

[Funky Papa]

The way he moves his tiny beady eyes and licks his lips is beyond gross. I want to put a morning star to his face.

 

[Violet_0]

Team Stannis! Saw this list on another forum and well, facts are facts. It was a no spoilers thread and didn't see any book spoilers so here's a copy paste.

Top Reasons to be on Team Stannis:

that would be a pretty convincing list if I wasn't already a member of #TeamStannis

 

[Frank the Great]

how fucking weird would it be if bran wargs into someone like maynce raider and gets stuck there. whatever adult he wargs into would have to have some serious acting chops to pull off a kid in an adult body.

seems too ridiculous for this universe, but i feel like the whole eagle thing and hodor thing last episode was a foreshadow of something like that happening with bran.