Also price. You know download prices are going to be stupid. I've not bought one full price game from PSN because publishers mark them at £49-59 when online retailers have them for £20 less.
TRUTHFACT: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One
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Also price. You know download prices are going to be stupid. I've not bought one full price game from PSN because publishers mark them at £49-59 when online retailers have them for £20 less.
Cheap arse gaffer ftw!
DC1
Member
DC1
Member
Very good ...some folks. Have had accounts for months..only to metamorphosis in the most resent 30 days.
....myself excluded!
DC1
Member
I respect the heck out of that!! (just wanted to "selfishly" see you type it ....sorry)
Valve is in a different market. If PC games were like console games, we wouldn't ever have needed Steam. Steam rose because no one else could figure out how to do PC DRM in a way the mass market would find attractive. XBONE is the first try at console DRM. It's not about marketing, it's about being compared to worse products (like Steam was) instead of being compared to better products (like xbone is).
kingkaiser
Member
So, this whole shitstorm is just an unadulterated hypocrisy then.
We know that the masses and us super sensitive "pro-consumer" hardcore players accepted paying for Live. We accepted the draconic business terms of Steam.
But suddenly it's "this far and no further".
Yay, just as it was in the beginning of last gen.
Phase 1:"I will never pay for DLC"
Phase 2: "Ok, I will but definitely not for day 1 DLC!!!"
Phase 3: " Meh, I will do that too, but not when the DLC content is on the disc from the get-go. I have to draw a line there and stick to my principles!"
Phase 4: "Sorry, but I can't hear over the awesomeness that is Telltale's episodic content"
I bet that at the first wave of must-have titles combined with Steam-Sales like bargains all this "concerned" people won't hear their blabbing of yesterday.
Microsoft is a business, and as a business they've been making a lot of stupid decisions recently. We'll see though.
Metalmurphy
Member
Valve doesn't have to answer to share holders which makes a huge difference. It's not simply because they " communicate it" better.
Marmaladefire
Member
Except there are loads on "non hardcore" shelling out for live so they can shoot their bros in the head. You can't really blame that one on the "hardcore"
Steam lets you play offline. Steam lets you play offline. One more time. STEAM LETS YOU PLAY OFFLINE. Did we all forget this in the rush to excuse MS?
I do not have to have my internet connected to play a game I've paid for and downloaded. I can also redownload Steam games to different locations. The Xbone wants me to be online all the time with a kinect camera on waiting for me to start jerking off on my Xbone or something.
Valve is not a publicly traded corporation that has to answer to shareholders. That's actually a HUGE difference.
kingkaiser
Member
kingkaiser
Member
"Please note that you must connect to the Steam Network and test each of the games you would like to use in Offline Mode at least once to set up your account and configure Offline Mode on your machine."
I had a good laugh. Very consumer friendly indeed. Especially when you lose your connection unplanned and totally unexpected.
Steam lets you play offline but you can't sell your Steam games. So at best it's a tie.
Marmaladefire
Member
It would suck in that situation. However, Steam is not a monopoly. Steam isn't the only place I can go to get PC games, they aren't the only people activating PC games. If I dont' like Steam's policies, I can go elsewhere and buy my game and play that way. It's not the same as what MS is doing. Do people really think all this backlash is simply because "hardcore gamers want MS to fail hurr durr" Do you think Steam would be as successful if it was as limiting and anti consumerist as MS is admitting the Xbone will be at this point?
If I don't like the way Valve is doing something, I can still go to amazon or even gamestop and get the same experience. MS charges $60 and fucks me over? Oh well, the publisher says I can't even resell this one, so that's that!
kingkaiser
Member
So, Valve is restrictive as hell with Steam although they are not forced to be so damn restrictive becaus they don't have to answer to share holders, unlike these other companies.
But hey, they are the saviors of PC gaming because DRM was inevitable on that platform (funnily it's not on consoles) and they made the most "acceptable" middle-path with Steam, yeah right...
How is infinite offline play "restrictive as hell?"
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
It's not that different. You'll be able to play most Xbox One games on other platforms, with the exception of comparatively few Xbox One exclusives. You are able to play most PC games on other services, with the exception of comparatively few Steam exclusives.
kingkaiser
Member
But, it is as "anti consumerist" as the Xbone. People will adapt to that, like they always do. All these threads about how some will boycott are going to be very funny to read in few years.
kingkaiser
Member
"Please note that you must connect to the Steam Network and test each of the games you would like to use in Offline Mode at least once to set up your account and configure Offline Mode on your machine."
Please understand...I know
Ive read this exact same argument no less than a dozen times in the past few days, and it is just as asinine each and every time.
Please point me to the $3 digital copy of Halo 4 if Steam and XBox Live are the same.
FranXico
Member
You're talking as if people have no choice. But right now, they do.
Monty Mole
Member
You're also completely relying on Steam for bargains, whereas retailers will compete with each other for XB1 game pricing. I can find a ton of recent 360/PS3 games cheaper at retail (here in the UK) than they are currently on Steam for PC.
That said, whether it's a "tie" or not depends on an individual's circumstances and outlook.
Ok...and I still gamed offline on my deployment for 6 months. What is Microsoft offering Naval sailors who deploy?
archnemesis
Member
Are you complaining that you need to use the internet to connect to a download-only service?
Tons of retailers sell steam codes and offer discounts cheaper than Steam. I just picked up the new Civ5 xpac for $21 at GreenManGaming, its $27 on Steam, Amazon has the same game for $30.
No you're not. Greenmangaming and Amazon digital sell Steam codes for games for usually cheaper than Steam themselves. That's competition. There's also still the physical PC disc market that ends up activated via steam which can also be purchased at variable prices.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I don't really mind Xbox's DRM but I can understand why many is going against MS. They fucked up, pure and simple.
I understand that they choose to showcase the majority of their games during E3 but that recent Xbox One reveal just put a sour taste in a lot of people's mouth. Here we are, waiting for the sequel to one of the most successful gaming consoles and you don't even spend 5 minutes on a playthrough of one of your games. It's what we want most from the reveal considering it's a gaming console.
Jury's still out on Xbox One's future success, but they do have to do something to get back the core. Sony had to do it once after the terrible first year of the PS3. Hopefully MS can bounce back as well.
maquiladora
Member
cboat, drop the bomb...a man cannot live on one truthfact alone.
REMEMBER CITADEL
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Steam was never a download-only service, I could buy a physical copy of Half-Life 2 back in 2004.
What about green man gaming with their never ending 25% off codes for Steam keys? No one buys direct from Steam unless there's a sale on or they're crazy.
Marmaladefire
Member
Well yes, and I will. What I mean is, say someone buys an Xbox One. They pick up EA's newest game, go home and turn it on. As of today on an Xbox360, should that person not enjoy the game, Finish it and decide it has no replay value for them, or desire to rid themselves of it for any reason, it isn't a problem. Gamestop, amazon, ebay, pick your poison. This time next year this same person in this same situation with an Xbone will likely not have those options if EA didn't extend the kindness of allowing them to resell or trade in. And there isn't anything they can do about it, and there is no way they could have prevented it (besides not buying an Xbox One in the first place)
On the other hand, I'm not at the mercy of how closely in bed Valve is in with any one publisher across an entire platform in most cases. I have options, even across that one platform. That's all anyone is really asking for at the end. Options. That's the difference between the Xbox One and choosing to use Steam, knowing what you can't do when you purchase something from it.
If he said that, he is a moron. Valve is privately owned, and for that reason alone it is massively different than a publicly owned corporation. Aside from that, their business structure is remarkably different from most other mid to large sized companies. Not saying they are a moral entity, dota2 is ecrack.
Nobody buys from Steam unless its a sale. Greenmangaming and Amazon sell Steam keys cheaper then Steam does. Competition
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You are not addressing what I said at all. There are games that you can't get for any other service, just Steam. There are just a few of them now, but they do exist and their numbers may grow. Also, in your hypothetical scenario, if you decided you didn't like a Steam game, there would be nothing you could do about it, Steam doesn't let you deactivate games once you activate them. You will have that option on Xbox One. Even if the platform gives you less options than Xbox 360, it's still more consumer-friendly than Steam in that regard.
I think you guys are in the wrong thread.
I can understand why people want to call hypocrisy with Live and Steam.
I just have two issues with those arguments.
1. Console gaming and PC gaming are different. Just because steps have been taken over the years to make them more similar doesn't mean that there still isn't a divide. PC gaming needed to switch to a CD-key setup over a decade ago because it would have died out otherwise.
2. There's a slope. It may be slippery. But there's a tipping point, and Microsoft is driving headlong over the ledge.
I just have two issues with those arguments.
1. Console gaming and PC gaming are different. Just because steps have been taken over the years to make them more similar doesn't mean that there still isn't a divide. PC gaming needed to switch to a CD-key setup over a decade ago because it would have died out otherwise.
2. There's a slope. It may be slippery. But there's a tipping point, and Microsoft is driving headlong over the ledge.
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And you think the current console business model is sustainable and able to fight off the competition from newly emerging platforms, including the rejuvenated PC? I don't, and I also thought many people here were predicting a crash just months ago.
Where else can you buy bioshock infinite? Or metro: last light? You might be able to buy them from amazon, but you'll have to redeem them through steam and be bound to their terms. Steam *is* effectively a monopoly platform for almost all new major releases other than EA (and they have their own monopoly for their games).
The only flexibility is that you can buy the codes from more than one store. Just like you will be able to with Xbox one discs
I bought Bioshock Infinite on green man gaming before release for €34. I got Bishock 1, Bioshock 2 and XCOM: Enemy Unknown for free in addition to Infinite. On consoles, I would have paid €60 just for an inferior version of Infinite. I think this is relevant to the discussion.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Given the hoops you have to jump through with most consoles I can't see software piracy being such a huge issue for consoles. Which means these initiatives are focusing on a really small subset of the market. I mean software sales between Wii, 360, and PS3 are on par if not exceeding software sales for the prior generation of PS2, Xbox, and GCN.
You're looking at no lost software sales from the prior generation and a substantive uptick in hardware sales. Impressive, given no console had the lock on the market and overwhelming software support of the PS2.
On the PC it is literally as easy as finding a place to DL the title. Which is why there was such a change in that market.
On consoles these newly minted DRM practices are fighting an almost nonexistent enemy.
edit: At the potential expense of legit buyers like me.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Not to single you out but I've seen this posted a few times, where people say they are going back to Sony as their console of choice for the first time since PS1.
So there are that many people who missed out on PS2's library of games? You've missed out in a big way.
Why do people keep comparing the Xbone to Steam? Nobody was bitching about XBLA not allowing you to sell your games for the same exact reason nobody bitches about Steam: we're talking about digital services providing digital products versus physical retail discs that had certain functionality. Functionality that is now being taken away. Thus the shit storm.
It is a matter of taking away our choice, diminishing the utility of the product, and expecting us to be fine with it. When Steam starts adding restrictions to content you will start to see similar reactions.
It is a matter of taking away our choice, diminishing the utility of the product, and expecting us to be fine with it. When Steam starts adding restrictions to content you will start to see similar reactions.
Well if there wasn't going to be a crash there will be now.
Whiteshirt
Member
Keep in mind, a lot of retail PC games don't actually use DRM at all. Arma 2 doesn't use any DRM after patch 1.05 (only an anti-cheat and piracy check if you use a crack). GOG games don't really use DRM either as far as I know. Its only the big publisher games that do.
Steam is a digital storefront and while a lot of publishers will use Steam as DRM, its not a necessity if the publisher doesn't want to implement DRM. As far as I know, no retail Paradox game has had any DRM (not even a disk check). There's a few other small developers that have similar no DRM policies.
I think the problem with Xbox's DRM policy is that it gives the end user close to nothing yet takes things away from them. Like the 8-4 podcast mentioned, what you can do and can't do with your games seem really arbitrary and convoluted and only really useful in edge cases. They're basically combining the worst things about PC gaming with the worst things about console gaming so I'm not surprised a lot of people are unhappy. While Steam is basically DRM, it makes everything sweet by giving you automatic patching, the ability to mod most of your games, offer extremely simplified install and backup processes, very good friends list fuctions, VAC anticheat, and very low prices on a platform that used to be the Wild West.
Steam is a digital storefront and while a lot of publishers will use Steam as DRM, its not a necessity if the publisher doesn't want to implement DRM. As far as I know, no retail Paradox game has had any DRM (not even a disk check). There's a few other small developers that have similar no DRM policies.
I think the problem with Xbox's DRM policy is that it gives the end user close to nothing yet takes things away from them. Like the 8-4 podcast mentioned, what you can do and can't do with your games seem really arbitrary and convoluted and only really useful in edge cases. They're basically combining the worst things about PC gaming with the worst things about console gaming so I'm not surprised a lot of people are unhappy. While Steam is basically DRM, it makes everything sweet by giving you automatic patching, the ability to mod most of your games, offer extremely simplified install and backup processes, very good friends list fuctions, VAC anticheat, and very low prices on a platform that used to be the Wild West.
pieatorium
Member
Nintendo fans desperate to rationalise the WiU's failure
Thunder Monkey
Banned
And this is what I worry about.
They are taking away some of the few perks console gaming has. The only thing worse would be this and upgradeable hardware.
Bring all the follies of PC gaming to consoles and remove the few perks console gaming has.
You really don't like Nintendo fans do you?
Anyway for me personally it was looking at the fairly drastic downturn in both hardware and software sales that's had me taking a step back and watching the market. I mean... it's one thing to expect contraction during generations of this length. It's another to see consoles falling behind faster than the PS2, getting close to the GCN final year levels, and watching the software market crater.
I know. But it still redeems through steam. You are still bound by steam's terms and conditions. Every time someone mentions a comparison with steam, someone else says 'oh but you can buy games from other stores'. Yes but they all end up in the same place at the end.
Xbox will be the same. Buy direct from MS, or buy discs from GameStop, amazon etc - and redeem on XBL.
No, prices won't be as cheap as some steam promotions, but they should be in line with what console discounts already are for 360, assuming wholesale prices to retailers remain similar. I don't think anyone was expecting absolute pricing iPad with steam.
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