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[Sushigod7]

Can I ask what illegal act Zimmerman claims Trayvon committed that resulted in Zimmerman pursuing him on foot?

I believe in the phone call he said he looked suspicious? I don't know if it was ever said why Zimmerman was outside that night in the first place did he just patrol the neighborhood looking for problems while it was raining? In my mind they both should have been home at that point ZM didn't have any business out and Martin didn't need to walk a mile to get juice and skittles the father should have been keeping better track of his son.

He already called the police and they were already on the way. He followed Trayvon so he could give give the police an accurate location of where he was.

I was talking about voices not why he followed him?

 

[JB1981]

He already called the police and they were already on the way. He followed Trayvon so he could give give the police an accurate location of where he was.

But why? What was Travyon doing that required the help of police?

 

[KHarvey16]

But why? What was Travyon doing that required the help of police?

Zimmerman reported he was acting suspiciously and called police to come look into it. He used the history of break ins recently to justify his suspicion.

 

[dhusband]

I believe in the phone call he said he looked suspicious? I don't know if it was ever said why Zimmerman was outside that night in the first place did he just patrol the neighborhood looking for problems while it was raining? In my mind they both should have been home at that point ZM didn't have any business out and Martin didn't need to walk a mile to get juice and skittles the father should have been keeping better track of his son.

It's been stated in one of the reports that George Zimmerman was on his way to a Target store and he saw Trayvon on his way out the neighborhood.

Why would a father need to be around to chaperone his 17 year old son to a convenience store at 7 at night? Or hell any time really. Kids walk to gas stations all the time.

 

[TunaMarshmallow]

In my mind they both should have been home at that point ZM didn't have any business out and Martin didn't need to walk a mile to get juice and skittles the father should have been keeping better track of his son.

What in the name of hell are you talking about? Martin shouldn't have been out and about, talking on the phone and going to the store?! Why not?!

 

[Sushigod7]

Zimmerman reported he was acting suspiciously and called police to come look into it. He used the history of break ins recently to justify his suspicion.

Exactly then instead of waiting he decided to follow to keep better track of him because as he put it these punks always get away.

 

[Sushigod7]

It's been stated in one of the reports that George Zimmerman was on his way to a Target store and he saw Trayvon on his way out the neighborhood.

Why would a father need to be around to chaperone his 17 year old son to a convenience store at 7 at night? Or hell any time really. Kids walk to gas stations all the time.

What in the name of hell are you talking about? Martin shouldn't have been out and about, talking on the phone and going to the store?! Why not?!

Hey that's my opinion do either of you have children? I'd say by know this area because I live nearby and the fact that it was a rainy night and already dark if my kid asked can I walk a mile to the store to get skittles and juice I'd say no or I'd drive them. I'm not saying he deserved to die because he walked to the store I'm just thinking out loud. Calm down.

 

[speedline]

I believe in the phone call he said he looked suspicious? I don't know if it was ever said why Zimmerman was outside that night in the first place did he just patrol the neighborhood looking for problems while it was raining? In my mind they both should have been home at that point ZM didn't have any business out and Martin didn't need to walk a mile to get juice and skittles the father should have been keeping better track of his son.

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain, there had been several break ins in the area. He was patrolling for suspicious activity and called the cops on Trayvon.

I was talking about voices not why he followed him?

You asked why he didn't yell "someone call the police!" and I answered "he already called the police"

 

[freddy]

Martin didn't need to walk a mile to get juice and skittles the father should have been keeping better track of his son.

You must be joking.

 

[Joel Was Right]

As I understand it, he was the neighborhood watchdog for a gated community right? I live in a "gated" community (well not really as there is no actual gate) ... is Zimmerman claiming Trayvon was trespassing or something? I mean, I'm struggling to understand why Zimmerman thought Trayvon was a threat. What was he doing? It was simply his profile?

It's probably worth noting Zimmerman is alleged to have contacted 9-11 for non-emergency reasons almost 50 times in the last few years, nine of which related to suspicious individuals. Martin was not a native to the area, so its possible that other factors (beyond racial stereotyping) were involved in Zimmerman's mind to ultimately suspect Martin.

 

[Dali]

This is disingenuous.

The defense's claim isn't that "a fight broke out." It's that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, having broken his nose and slamming his head into the concrete.

And all that the evidence shows is that Zimmerman followed Martin for several minutes. That isn't stalking or harassing in any legal sense.




No, I was trying to see if we could figure out precisely where following someone crosses the line where it becomes a reasonable threat of bodily harm, which justifies the use of force to prevent, by asking questions based on his posts. First I asked if the line was at point A, he said no, then I asked if it was at point B. that's called analysis.

Please try harder to keep up, or if you won't, let me know so I can ignore any posts you might make on this topic in the future.

It's called poor analysis. As I've been trying to explain to you there was a list... you know more than one thing... that went into the opinion that it is reasonable to feel threatened in that situation and you still obviously fail to see that as you think picking individual events and asking if that's "the line" is some sort of helpful or intelligent analysis. It's sum of the whole situation is basically what the poster was saying and you reply with 'so you're saying it was because he got out of the car'? But please ignore my posts in the future as its clear you're the one that can't keep up and I'm tired of repeating this same point to you.

 

[Sushigod7]

You must be joking.

No I'm not read my post above

 

[freddy]

No I'm not read my post above

Fair enough, I didn't see that, but at 17 years of age the majority of kids are given a bit of leeway in deciding where they go.

 

[Dude Abides]

It's called poor analysis. As I've been trying to explain to you there was a list... you know more than one thing... that went into the opinion that it is reasonable to feel threatened in that situation and you still obviously fail to see that as you think picking individual events and asking if that's "the line" is some sort of helpful or intelligent analysis. It's sum of the whole situation is basically what the poster was saying and you reply with 'so you're saying it was because he got out of the car'? But please ignore my posts in the future as its clear you're the one that can't keep up and I'm tired of repeating this same point to you.

Clearly where the line lies is very important, because Florida law provides that self defense is not available to one who provokes the use of force. You might get that if you were a bit more concerned with understanding the case and a bit less concerned with galloping about aimlessly on your high horse. Obviously you don't care too much about the facts or the law, but the court will.

 

[soundscream]

I believe in the phone call he said he looked suspicious? I don't know if it was ever said why Zimmerman was outside that night in the first place did he just patrol the neighborhood looking for problems while it was raining? In my mind they both should have been home at that point ZM didn't have any business out and Martin didn't need to walk a mile to get juice and skittles the father should have been keeping better track of his son.

No, just no.

At 17 I had my own car and could pretty much go anywhere I wanted when I wanted. If a 17 year old cant walk to the store at 7pm to get candy then there is no hope for anything.

 

[travisbickle]

As I understand it, he was the neighborhood watchdog for a gated community right? I live in a "gated" community (well not really as there is no actual gate) ... is Zimmerman claiming Trayvon was trespassing or something? I mean, I'm struggling to understand why Zimmerman thought Trayvon was a threat. What was he doing? It was simply his profile?

Is this a paid job? Or a community-voted voluntary position?

If the latter, didn't anyone in the community suggest not allowing the guy to walk around with a gun because he wasn't a cop?

 

[DigitalOp]

This case betrays the mind. And its fustrating this guy is going to get off after commiting wrongdoing. The US Justice system will be joke if Zimmerman gets off scot free. This justification of evidence betrays the logistics of the case... I mean shit, The best detectives throw the pursuit of evidence in the trash can and usually go on hunch to break the coldest of cases.. Let's look at the logic.

1. He killed an unarmed teenager. If I have a gun, and the other doesn't, Don't I have the advantage in any situation? How hard would it to be for an untrained unarmed person to disable me? Regardless of any scuffle, Im sure if I pulled out my weapon, The conflict would end.

2. Witness account says person on top walked away after the gunshot. Doesn't sound like self-defense to me.

3. Zimmerman persued and stalked Trayvon with no probable cause. He didn't witness Trayvon stealing, assaulting someone, vandalizing property.... He was just walking down the street. Profiling is considered harrasment.

4. Trayvon's autopsy has him recorded as 5'11 , 150lbs. Zimmerman is documented at 5'8, 200 lbs at the night of the shooting. While Trayvon has the height advantage, Zimmerman has the body mass not to be so simply bullied around as his statement claims. The phone calls contains crys for help yet by Zimmerman's account, Trayvon was covering his mouth, hitting him in the face, and hitting him with concrete. You don't have time to cry for help during an assault like that lest you want broken teeth along with your injuries...


The sad part about all this is that we only have one side of the story.... And it pains me that the court wants to take Zimmerman's word of the account as gospel when its so obviously one sided and bias. Trayvon can't defend himself now... and the truth is shadowed in mystery.

End all be all... The TRUE villains in this case are the Sanford Police Dept as they did a terrible job of proceeding with this crime the night of the event. And the REAL cause of this occurance is Point 3.

WHAT PROBABLE CAUSE DID ZIMMERMAN HAVE TO PERSUE TRAYVON WHEN NO CRIME WAS EVER WITNESSED.

If the court doesn't acknowledge this, then its living proof there really was no justice for all to begin with.. They should rephrase it for "justice for the priviliged"

 

[Dali]

Clearly where the line lies is very important, because Florida law provides that self defense is not available to one who provokes the use of force. You might get that if you were a bit more concerned with understanding the case and a bit less concerned people with galloping about aimlessly on your high horse.

The details - the events (plural) and circumstances - leading up to the shooting clearly do matter, yes. Calling it a line and trying to establish one single variable as being the clear reason for a valid use of self defense is foolish. Someone getting out of their car and walking in the same direction as you in downtown new York in the middle of the day is just a tad different from someone doing the same at night in the rain all alone after previously stalking you from said vehicle.

I don't know what type of high horse you think I'm for arguing a simple point.

 

[Dude Abides]

The details - the events (plural) and circumstances - leading up to the shooting clearly do matter, yes. Calling it a line and trying to establish one single variable as being the clear reason for a valid use of self defense is foolish. Someone getting out of their car and walking in the same direction as you in downtown new York in the middle of the day is just a tad different from someone doing the same at night in the rain all alone after previously stalking you from said vehicle.

I don't know what type of high horse you think I'm for arguing a simple point.

Your point is "I don't care where the line is, I just know he crossed it." That might fly on a message board but it probably won't in a courtroom, especially on appeal.

 

[Sushigod7]

No, just no.

At 17 I had my own car and could pretty much go anywhere I wanted when I wanted. If a 17 year old cant walk to the store at 7pm to get candy then there is no hope for anything.

I had a car at 15 but he wasn't driving a car he was walking a mile in the rain. I have no hope for anything in the world anymore you can trust anyone and you can't take anything for granted. No one takes responsibility for themselves or their children nor do they teach them respect. But that is a whole other discussion really.

 

[JB1981]

Is this a paid job? Or a community-voted voluntary position?

If the latter, didn't anyone in the community suggest not allowing the guy to walk around with a gun because he wasn't a cop?

From what I understand, Fl has very lax laws when it comes to gun carrying

 

[BSsBrolly]

I had a car at 15 but he wasn't driving a car he was walking a mile in the rain. I have no hope for anything in the world anymore you can trust anyone and you can't take anything for granted. No one takes responsibility for themselves or their children nor do they teach them respect. But that is a whole other discussion really.

You act like a mile is a long distance... It's not unusual for anyone to walk a mile to the store. He had every right to to so. To imply he was in the wrong for walking to a store is ridiculous.

 

[soundscream]

I had a car at 15 but he wasn't driving a car he was walking a mile in the rain. I have no hope for anything in the world anymore you can trust anyone and you can't take anything for granted. No one takes responsibility for themselves or their children nor do they teach them respect. But that is a whole other discussion really.

It started raining on his way back from the store. And even if it wasn't this wasn't a bad neighborhood he should have been able to walk a mile free from violence.

 

[akira28]

some people enjoy walking, even out in a light rain.

most probably don't expect to get drilled by the goddamn neighborhood watch wannabe.
and you thought Homeowners Associations were overzealous?

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I had a car at 15 but he wasn't driving a car he was walking a mile in the rain. I have no hope for anything in the world anymore you can trust anyone and you can't take anything for granted. No one takes responsibility for themselves or their children nor do they teach them respect. But that is a whole other discussion really.

Or maybe he wanted the time to talk to his friend. Either way there is no wrong in walking to a store and back.

 

[Touchdown]

Is this a paid job? Or a community-voted voluntary position?

He was "self appointed" since he brought a gun to the community meetings...

 

[Karkador]

Victim-blaming the family now?

 

[Zoe]

2. Witness account says person on top walked away after the gunshot. Doesn't sound like self-defense to me.

None of the witnesses saw him on top during the shooting. The one witness said Martin was face down when she saw Zimmerman on top. Martin was shot from the front, so there was definitely movement in between the shooting and any eye witness accounts.

 

[BronsonLee]

None of the witnesses saw him on top during the shooting. The one witness said Martin was face down when she saw Zimmerman on top. Martin was shot from the front, so there was definitely movement in between the shooting and any eye witness accounts.

Unless Martin walked away after the shooting occurred, I don't think this is right. Most of them are saying the guy on top got up and walked away after the gunshot

Also a hearty laugh at not being able to walk anywhere without being followed

 

[akira28]

He was "self appointed" since he brought a gun to the community meetings...

And you know "bringing" actually means showing, since you can fucking have a gun on you without others knowing.

 

[Dude Abides]

Unless Martin walked away after the shooting occurred, I don't think this is right. Most of them are saying the guy on top got up and walked away after the gunshot

Also a hearty laugh at not being able to walk anywhere without being followed

One complicating factor is nobody saw the gunshot and Zimmerman claims he got on top of Martin after he shot him.

 

[Zoe]

Unless Martin walked away after the shooting occurred, I don't think this is right. Most of them are saying the guy on top got up and walked away after the gunshot

The defense is arguing that Martin was on top when he got shot, Zimmerman pushed him off, and then he got on top of Martin.

In order for Martin to have been on the bottom the entire time, he either would have had to fully rotate while Zimmerman was straddling him or Zimmerman had to have gotten up and then back down again.

 

[KHarvey16]

Unless Martin walked away after the shooting occurred, I don't think this is right. Most of them are saying the guy on top got up and walked away after the gunshot

Also a hearty laugh at not being able to walk anywhere without being followed

Zimmerman's written statement to police was that after firing his weapon, he got out from under Martin and was then on top of him, holding his arms. The guy on top walking away is consistent with this statement. What we need to know is when the transition occurred, or if it occurred at all, from eyewitnesses. If Zimmerman was on top before or while shooting his defense is out the window.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

None of the witnesses saw him on top during the shooting. The one witness said Martin was face down when she saw Zimmerman on top. Martin was shot from the front, so there was definitely movement in between the shooting and any eye witness accounts.

Zimmerman's account from the reenactment is that he shot Martin while he (GZ) was being straddled. After the shot the gun, GZ says he didn't at first think it hit him as TM said something to the effect of "Ok, you got me" or something and backed off. No longer pinned, GZ turned TM face down with his arms out to restrain him, which is when witnesses seem to have started coming outside and then the cops arrived.

Again, Zimmerman's account, so take it as you will, but it seems to basically line up with the eyewitness stuff I've heard so far (and that has more to do with the eyewitness stuff being weak than it does anything being helpful).

 

[ViperVisor]

It rains a lot in parts of Florida. You probably get used to seeing people walk in the rain.
And if he was moving a bit faster when he was spoted that hypothetically would of made him more suspicious and some people would ask why not just walk at a good pace though the rain as it wasn't that far of a distance.

And 7pm not around a holiday on Sunday. That's prime thieving time?

He self-selected a terrible time to actually do any good on the lookout.

 

[Touchdown]

And you know "bringing" actually means showing, since you can fucking have a gun on you without others knowing.

oh he showed it off at the community meetings, at least that is what some of the people said that attended those. The guy is a nut.

 

[pj]

Is this a paid job? Or a community-voted voluntary position?

If the latter, didn't anyone in the community suggest not allowing the guy to walk around with a gun because he wasn't a cop?

As I understand it, he wasn't "on duty" that night anyway, he was going to his car to drive to Target when he noticed a suspicious looking (aka black) kid. It's not illegal for a citizen to racially profile someone and follow them and call the police.

Why shouldn't he walk around with a gun if he's legally allowed to carry it? Also, being a cop doesn't magically grant you perfect judgement for when to use a gun and proficiency when it needs to be used.

Either Trayvon was beating the piss out of Zimmerman and was killed in self defense, or Zimmerman started shit and is a murderer. I don't think there is super strong evidence either way, which is unfortunate.

 

[Measley]

It's important to note that just because Martin was on top doesn't mean that Martin started the altercation.

Also if the screams stopped after the shooting, that means they came from the person who got shot. I really don't believe that Zimmerman was screaming for help when he knew he had a gun on him.

 

[BronsonLee]

Ahhh, got it. Thanks for clarifying guys.

Goodness me, this trial is a circus...

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Either Trayvon was beating the piss out of Zimmerman and was killed in self defense, or Zimmerman started shit and is a murderer. I don't think there is super strong evidence either way, which is unfortunate.

Pretty much this, based on the evidence so far. All of the other crazy speculation people are throwing down as fact is bizarre, but I guess this has become so emotional/political that that's how it's going to be.

I wish it were as clear-cut as many are convinced. As it stands I don't think we'll ever really know what happened that night and that favors a criminal acquittal given the second degree charges. The telling thing about the polarizing nature of this case will be if it ends up with a hung jury. There don't seem to be many people who follow the case willing to change their minds about what happened (both pro and con Zimmerman, mind you).

 

[DigitalOp]

It rains a lot in parts of Florida. You probably get used to seeing people walk in the rain.
And if he was moving a bit faster when he was spoted that hypothetically would of made him more suspicious and some people would ask why not just walk at a good pace though the rain as it wasn't that far of a distance.

And 7pm not around a holiday on Sunday. That's prime thieving time?

He self-selected a terrible time to actually do any good on the lookout.

It's important to note that just because Martin was on top doesn't mean that Martin started the altercation.

Also if the screams stopped after the shooting, that means they came from the person who got shot. I really don't believe that Zimmerman was screaming for help when he knew he had a gun on him.

Great points that should be brought up in the case... But we all know it won't.

As I understand it, he wasn't "on duty" that night anyway, he was going to his car to drive to Target when he noticed a suspicious looking (aka black) kid. It's not illegal for a citizen to racially profile someone and follow them and call the police.

Why shouldn't he walk around with a gun if he's legally allowed to carry it? Also, being a cop doesn't magically grant you perfect judgement for when to use a gun and proficiency when it needs to be used.

Either Trayvon was beating the piss out of Zimmerman and was killed in self defense, or Zimmerman started shit and is a murderer. I don't think there is super strong evidence either way, which is unfortunate.

Yes, Its not illegal for a citizen to racially profile.... Its just okay for them to racially profile.

This is whats pissing me off the most about the case.

If a black child is walking down the street at 7pm on a Sunday night, with a hoody up. He's automatically suspicious... I think America has a bigger problem than the justice system right now. And Im suspecting a poster to tell me to "deal with it" soon...


To the 2nd bolding in your quote, We can agree that Trayvon was killed after giving Zimmerman the work for following him "suspiciously" or Zimmerman started some shit and couldn't finish it so he shot him.

He's a fuckin coward.

 

[vas_a_morir]

He's a fuckin coward.

You see, that's just the thing. If anything, he wasn't cautious enough. It is the opinion of most Gaffers that he started an altercation with someone he thought was a career criminal. That's the opposite of cowardly. That's brave, reckless, and as we can see now, foolish... maybe even crazy. But not cowardly.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Looking at these pictures... Where is the bush Trayvon supposedly jumped out of?

 

[BSsBrolly]

You see, that's just the thing. If anything, he wasn't cautious enough. It is the opinion of most Gaffers that he started an altercation with someone he thought was a career criminal. That's the opposite of cowardly. That's brave, reckless, and as we can see now, foolish... maybe even crazy. But not cowardly.

No, it's cowardly. He only started something because he knew three things:

1. He had a gun
2. Police were on their way
3. Trayvon was a kid

He knew he was in no danger as Trayvon was a kid (probably thought he could handle him as he out weighed him by 50lbs) and had the upper hand if things went down (had a gun) plus police protection.

 

[Mr. Patch]

One witness just said he saw a struggle with what appeared to be Trayvon on top, but he didn't see any head slamming.

 

[Touchdown]

I'm glad Martin was at least able to get a few good shots before he was shot to death. Zimmerman looks like he never got in a fight in his life so of course if he got hit in his chubby little face he would think that his life was being threatened because he never felt a good punch in his face before. My mom who's in her 50's could probably beat his ass.... anyways....

 

[methane47]

You see, that's just the thing. If anything, he wasn't cautious enough. It is the opinion of most Gaffers that he started an altercation with someone he thought was a career criminal. That's the opposite of cowardly. That's brave, reckless, and as we can see now, foolish... maybe even crazy. But not cowardly.

He had to shoot an unarmed kid 10 years his junior, and 50 POUNDS lighter than him with a gun.

Doesn't sound all that brave to me.

I'm glad Martin was at least able to get a few good shots before he was shot to death. Zimmerman looks like he never got in a fight in his life so of course if he got hit in his chubby little face he would think that his life was being threatened because he never felt a good punch in his face before. My mom who's in her 50's could probably beat his ass.... anyways....

he allegedly beat up his girlfriend and a police officer in previous altercations.

 

[DigitalOp]

You see, that's just the thing. If anything, he wasn't cautious enough. It is the opinion of most Gaffers that he started an altercation with someone he thought was a career criminal. That's the opposite of cowardly. That's brave, reckless, and as we can see now, foolish... maybe even crazy. But not cowardly.

I say he's a coward in that he took the easy way out of an altercation that in essence he started. Regardless of who started the physical altercation, His actions of following Trayvon was the first cause of every action that follows.

He was getting his ass beat so he pulled out his gun and shot him. Now he's claiming "self-defense" to escape his guilt. That's not "brave". Very much so foolish and even childish as a true adult would accept their conduct.

Zimmerman is acting like he's done the community and the world some kind of favor.... And that's where my animosity stems from. When I put that to the side and review the facts and logistics of the case...

Zimmerman is still guilty.

 

[Stinkles]

Let's summarize a few things that are true, no matter what the verdict is:


George Zimmerman shot an innocent teen to death AFTER provoking an altercation with him, AFTER being advised to back off by police.

Then, to save his skin, he effected a massive smear campaign, wrecking this dead child's reputation and using race and prejudice as energy for his defense.


He stalked and killed an innocent person and then slandered their reputation to stay out of jail.

And these aren't even disputable. So we'll go back and forth on Florida law, and arguments about self-defense AFTER Zimmerman instigated a fight, but the above happened, even by Zimmerman's own account.

 

[RoninChaos]

My big issue with all of this, is what the police did. This case would be very different if they did their jobs right the first time.

Is there any proof of the injuries that Zimmerman is saying he received? I imagine if his head was slammed on the ground multiple times there would be a lot of damage.