Nintendo's Iwata: "I don't recall saying I'd resign."

Are you saying Bayonetta 2 is going to appeal to the same consumer base that Goldeneye 007 appealed to?

Goldeneye 007 was a massive seller and a system seller for the N64.

Bayonetta 2 is a niche title.

Where did you get that idea?

I'm just saying that Nintendo is investing in "different, darker, mature, etc" content now, like they did with Rare. The amount of copies they sell doesn't really mean anything

royalan said:
Not just shooters. Dark, gritty, new IPs made to appeal to western gamers by a Nintendo 1st party studio that had the kind of autonomy to do that sort of thing. Platinum could fill this niche somewhat, but only time will really tell on that one.

I can't take you seriously when you're using "dark and gritty" unironically. Rare wasn't a first party studio, as an FYI
 
Where did you get that idea?

I'm just saying that Nintendo is investing in "different, darker, mature, etc" content now, like they did with Rare. The amount of copies they sell doesn't really mean anything
.

The titles they are invested in aren't the titles they need in this market. They need a game like Titanfall to succeed in the current western market.
 
Nintendo is a business. It is natural for them. Just because you aren't getting what you want doesn't mean they aren't listening to the consumers (and frankly, a story wouldn't have saved Sticker Star)

The lack of story also resulted in things like lack of partner characters (since they apparently weren't allowed to create characters like that anymore). It influenced the game's basic features too, not only on a script level.
 
Iwata definitely deserves at least one more generation to try something new. The Wii and DS were huge successes, no denying that and the 3DS was a good attempt. Nintendo have always been creative and brilliant game designers. The flip side of that is they can be a bit arrogant and find themselves in niche and quirky places. A little humility, genuine humility, would be very appreciated.
 
even though you just acknowledged a somewhat similar relationship with platinum right now?

As I said, only time will tell. I didn't care much for the first Bayonetta, nor did it sell that well.

I can't take you seriously when you're using "dark and gritty" unironically

My use of words was in response to your use of "darker edgier shooters" in response to Rare games that I enjoyed.
 
Why would you invest resources into a genre/title when your competitors basically have a lock on that segment of the market?

To keep your prospective audience from investing in your competition because they feel like they're missing out on a gratifying experience not being supplied on your hardware...maybe?
 
Why would you invest resources into a genre/title when your competitors basically have a lock on that segment of the market?

The lock isn't permanent though. Nintendo had a "lock" on a lot of things they lost to Sony and Microsoft.

They lost their lock on the casual segment of the market.

Games like Super Mario appeal to kids and family's with kids mostly. Yet take a look at the average age of the video gamer. What does Nintendo offer to the sizeable chunk of the market, that is the young male adolescent gamer?
 
Read this: http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2013/03/14/howard-lincoln-kicking-ass-before-reggie-came-along/

Basically, the NoA of old played a much bigger role in the types of games that came to Nintendo consoles.

But, for me at least, it all comes down to Rare. Rare in its prime made the games that made me love Nintendo hardware. Rare's games contributed greatly to giving Nintendo the kind of traction it needed to really dominate in the US.

A studio like Rare is the exact type that couldn't grow under Nintendo as it's run now.

Thanks for the link. I've read that previously and I mean all I can say is that this...if anything is an American effort. I'm from the UK (where Rare is from funnily enough!) And Nintendo never had the same relevancy here outside of Gameboy and Pokemon. I know this discussion was loosely based on the leadership of NOA but I took it to mean the west as a whole... including Europe.

Nintendo have become more relevant here then ever before and as an outsider I've always seen Nintendo as the same. We got Perfect Dark and Goldeneye and the like...but as a whole? As an ecosystem? From merely the image of Nintendo? It's pretty much the same to me as ever. Japanese first, localise later. Japanese centric through and through. Games like Pikmin come to mind when trying to sum up Nintendo's development habits and tendencies.
 
They also went on a hiring binge and got talent that was being laid off by other companies, and setup partnerships and joint-development opportunities with companies like Platinum and Mistwalker and Namco Bandai and Tecmo Koei - completely changing the way the majority of the game development community in Japan saw them. This took incredible time and effort frankly. Other than that, Nintendo has expanded Monolithsoft, Retro, and fostered relationships with a dozen smaller studios in Kyoto that are offshoots of employees from Konami, Square, etc.

They've also had to build out an entire OS team and built a social network through a partnership which they are managing internally. Nintendo also had to hire, over the past few years, tons of people in network engineering to bulk up on their core software abilities - unlike Microsoft which had people ready to go on that front. They are still lacking on this front but it's come a very long way and will improve - Sony is evidence of that. Even the Xbox has changed dramatically over the years.

More importantly: scaling up creative staff from say 1000 people to 3000 or more, for a company with such a unique workshop-like culture as Nintendo is really hard. Nintendo has the toughest hiring standards in the industry and have a very strong internal culture, and they are very careful about not ruining that - unlike Silicon Valley ponzi schemes that are trying to get bought in a few years and will hire anyone with a Stanford degree just to appease venture capitalists. Nintendo has had to exert tremendous effort to ensure they hire in a sustainable way where people work together and the culture thrives.

First off, good post. I agree with much of what you said about culture, but I have a few problems with some of your conclusions.

While you're right that Nintendo is doing some good stuff in regards to building themselves up substantially (1000 to 3000 people), Iwata deserves criticism that this wasn't done earlier. Nintendo has been having huge software droughts and lacking third-party support since the N64!

Iwata should've known the when he came in to a position of power. Why wasn't this massive build-up of studios done during his reign for Gamecube? It was the same situation. Iwata takes the reigns in 2002. GC support dries up.

Okay, maybe they're waiting for Wii. Third-parties aren't there on Wii, and first party droughts happen again. Then they let the console languish and die with no releases in the last two years.

It's 2013. Iwata took control as president in 2002. He experienced the Gamecube. He saw the third-party situation with the Wii. He let the damn thing die for its last two years. What was he doing for 11 years if these staffing efforts are just starting up now?

Also in 2005, the XBox 360 released. If Iwata was moderately conscious during this time, he'd have noticed that development teams were having problems with the new impositions and budgets of AAA and HD games. Development teams needed a huge boost. So what did he do? Nothing.

They could've increased their staff or bought third-party studios up during the lucrative Wii years, but they didn't. They waited. And here we are with the same problems Iwata has faced since the Gamecube. Few third-parties, first-party droughts.

It shouldn't take 11 years and a console on death's door for the president of Nintendo to realize that they needed to build up their teams, and build up new relationships with third-parties. I'm not saying they had to try to buy Activision. But do something differently.

The response has been way too late, and Iwata deserves criticism.. And it's forced Nintendo to only rely on extremely safe properties, even in the way they treat them. It's a direct sequel to handheld Mario, now with a new suit! So the risky "design company" philosophy you've put out there just isn't holding true for what their actual money-making product is -- software.

Also, in the paragraphs above, you laud them for building up their staff. But later, you go on to lament that buying Western support or building up Western would've taken up too much of NCL's or EAD's time. You claim that Retro is a burden to them.

Here:

So then, what should Nintendo have done in the West? Throw millions into California-based companies for no reason? Buy up studios only for the talent to leave? Money hat a bunch of games from developers that had no interest in making Wii games? I keep hearing all this talk about "Nintendo and West" - but there aren't a lot of compelling things Nintendo could have done. Building studios takes years, and Nintendo isn't just going to throw millions for another nightmare like Retro to occur which consumed incredible time from NCL and EAD.

So what should Nintendo have done? Obviously something different. You can't say:

With what abilities they had and opportunities they saw I think they made the right choices.

They didn't make the right choices. Anything different would've been better because they're digging themselves out of shit right now. Why is hiring in Japan good, but the West bad? Why assume every studio is going to be like Retro?

And we're not talking only about "developers that had no interest in making Wii games." They should have cultivated relationships with the studios that did have interest. Why the hell did Next Level Games have to take a paycheck making a Captain America licensed game for PS3 and XBox360, when that could've been another game for Nintendo? Is anyone still alive at NST?

They had the money to reinvest during the Wii and DS years, and they didn't. To excuse Iwata's delay is just to "please understand."
 
Thanks for the link. I've read that previously and I mean all I can say is that this...if anything is an American effort. I'm from the UK (where Rare is from funnily enough!) And Nintendo never had the same relevancy here outside of Gameboy and Pokemon. I know this discussion was loosely based on the leadership of NOA but I took it to mean the west as a whole... including Europe.

Nintendo have become more relevant here then ever before and as an outsider I've always seen Nintendo as the same. We got Perfect Dark and Goldeneye and the like...but as a whole? As an ecosystem? From merely the image of Nintendo? It's pretty much the same to me as ever. Japanese first, localise later. Japanese centric through and through. Games like Pikmin come to mind when trying to sum up Nintendo's development habits and tendencies.

More relevant than ever before?

I haven't been keeping up on Wii U numbers there, but last time I checked it was selling even worse there than it is in the US.
 
As I said, only time will tell. I didn't care much for the first Bayonetta, nor did it sell that well.

see, i thought you were arguing that such a studio can't flourish/put out that kind've quality under iwata's nintendo, not sales (which i don't know many companies could honestly bring to platinum to begin with) or your own tastes, those are separate arguments
 
I really don't get why people ignore NSMBU when they talk about how the system is lacking games and that 3D Land will spur sales. When asked why NSMBU "doesn't count" I've been told it's too similar to previous and recent iterations.

3D World is a sequel to a recent handheld iteration of 3D Mario. How does that make it fare better than NSMBU at spurring longer term sales?

I think there's a high chance 3d World will fail due to the portable-like aesthetics and lack of impression left by its reveal, but it does add a big differentiator factor - simultaneous multiplayer in a 3d platformer. That addition in a 2d game helped NSMB Wii to sell well in spite of being similar to the DS game, so it could potentially help 3d Land, which is likely the reason they took this route in the first place.

The lack of hype surrounding the Wii U and this game itself, considering its lack of visual change, and also the Wii U's low numbers might make the audience that could be interested by that just ignore the game though.

The main issue with most of Nintendo's line up, at least for this year, is that, aside from the release schedule, it seems like it was completely idealized and prepared believing that the launch would be a success. The choice of games, the visual design they're giving even to newly revealed titles (Donkey Kong too, not only Mario), and even the choices they made regarding some of their titles (the brighter SSB with less focus on an "epic" presentation) all show a big influence of the NSMB style which they likely expected to be a huge success again.

After the numbers didn't come, it seems like the only thing they've done is changing the release schedule, with the actual content of their line up remaining exactly the same as what we'd have gotten from a successful Wii U, There has been a big lack of reaction on the developer side.
 
To keep your prospective audience from investing in your competition because they feel like they're missing out on a gratifying experience not being supplied on your hardware...maybe?

If the "prospective audience" was that interested in a game like Titanfall, they are going to invest in a PS4 or the XBox One (or PC) because the community will already be there. And likely they would already have engaged with the community on a previous console

Mysterious said:
The lock isn't permanent though. Nintendo had a "lock" on a lot of things they lost to Sony and Microsoft.

They lost their lock on the casual segment of the market.

Games like Super Mario appeal to kids and family's with kids mostly. Yet take a look at the average age of the video gamer. What does Nintendo offer to the sizeable chunk of the market, that is the young male adolescent gamer?

Mario appeals to more than just kids and families. I'm not sure where this myth comes from (well, I guess it's because a lot of people - I'm guessing yourself as well - grew up during the N64/PS1/GCN/PS2 era where that was pretty common).

What does Nintendo offer to teenage boys? (which are becoming an increasingly smaller part of the market). The same games they offer to everyone else.
 
see, i thought you were arguing that such a studio can't flourish/put out that kind've quality under iwata's nintendo, not sales (which i don't know many companies could honestly bring to platinum to begin with) or your own tastes, those are separate arguments

Again, time will tell. Rare was more than those two games I mentioned. It was a development powerhouse whose best games easily rivaled Nintendo's own. Platinum is still relatively new. We don't yet know if Platinum will fill those shoes with those kinds of experiences. They could, though.

If the "prospective audience" was that interested in a game like Titanfall, they are going to invest in a PS4 or the XBox One (or PC) because the community will already be there. And likely they would already have engaged with the community on a previous console

And you don't think that this looks very bad for Iwata leadership that whole genres have been able to escape him?
 
I can't help but wonder if Iwata had a time machine and went back and prevented some of these mistakes that people here are calling him out for... but at the same time, to prevent/correct the mistakes, he shifted the company towards the "casual" market even more heavily and they maintained Nintendo like profits...

I can't help but wonder, shake this feeling that these same critics would still be upset.

Again, time will tell. Rare was more than those two games I mentioned. It was a development powerhouse whose best games easily rivaled Nintendo's own. Platinum is still relatively new. We don't yet know if Platinum will fill those shoes with those kinds of experiences. They could, though.

You should list them, because Rare's output in terms of QUANTITY (of quality titles of course) through the SNES and N64 is lacking with respect to your comparison.
 
mario 3d , mario kart, bayonetta 2 , wonderful 101 , zelda , pikmin , lego city, smash brothers, donkey kong etc don't appeal to people ?


I don't see how you could have gotten that if you read my post and the one it was responding to where it said people would choose Xbox One over Wii U.

I can't help but wonder if Iwata had a time machine and went back and prevented some of these mistakes that people here are calling him out for... but at the same time, to prevent/correct the mistakes, he shifted the company towards the "casual" market even more heavily and they maintained Nintendo like profits...

I can't help but wonder, shake this feeling that these same critics would still be upset.

Well if you've read Opiate's posts over the years he's always been approving of Nintendo's strategy with the Wii and DS.But I don't think make hypothetical arguments is useful at all.
 
More relevant than ever before?

I haven't been keeping up on Wii U numbers there, but last time I checked it was selling even worse there than it is in the US.

When I say relevancy I mean as a brand, household name etc. Nintendo games were never really big sellers here until the Wii unless you look at Pokemon pretty much. Most of Nintendo's IP have come a long way here. Stuff like Luigi's Mansion 2 and Animal Crossing and even Country Returns 3D selling well is a sign enough that although these IP are very well known and DK is pretty much ingrained in pop culture etc it's not always been a prevalent IP here but that's been changing every day. Remember 3DS counts here too! :p
 
Well if you've read Opiate's posts over the years he's always been approving of Nintendo's strategy with the Wii and DS.

He is the exception. Especially since many of these same critics were unhappy about Nintendo's direction with the Wii despite their profitability in that era. It really seems like Nintendo's profitability is not important to the harshest critics of Nintendo.
 
He is the exception. Especially since many of these same critics were unhappy about Nintendo's direction with the Wii despite their profitability in that era.

Ok. Well they aren't as profitable anymore so it doesn't matter at all and is kind of a deflection.Nintendo has lost that casual market at least for the forseeable future.
 
Ok. Well they aren't as profitable anymore so it doesn't matter at all and is kind of a deflection.Nintendo has lost that casual market at least for the forseeable future.

So is their current financial situation and losses a cost of doing business in this industry, or is there some yardstick that we have to say whether they are operating at the appropriate level of business management excellence?

What is the acceptable profit margin for a games industry platform holder and software publisher? And what is the systemic risk that governs the volatility of these profits?

Odd that you posted Opiate as an example response to my post first and then posted the above second. Why mention Opiate's view at all then? I think there is merit to asking the critics to give a thorough treatment of how they would like Nintendo to be managed beyond "westernize nintendo."
 
So is their current financial situation and losses a cost of doing business in this industry, or is there some yardstick that we have to say whether they are operating at the appropriate level of business management excellence?

What is the acceptable profit margin for a games industry platform holder and software publisher? And what is the systemic risk that governs the volatility of these profits?

Odd that you posted Opiate as an example response to my post first and then posted the above second. Why mention Opiate's view at all then? I think there is merit to asking the critics to give a thorough treatment of how they would like Nintendo to be managed beyond "westernize nintendo."

Well first I wanted to point out someone I noticed whose views were consistent, but I just found the question to be a deflection because I don't think the critics who would be unhappy if Nintendo went in a casual direction are the people saying they should have continued the Wii route. The people disgruntled now are the people who were upset during the Wii era but see now that Nintendo screwed the pooch as the chance to voice complaints. So you are generalizing two different arguments and then arguing one person is a hypocrite based off the other. People have been offering suggestions all thread that amount to more than westernize Nintendo. Most people I see don't want NIntendo to become a shootbang company. People want Nintendo to have more a presence in the west than they currently do because their stictly Japanese mentality has hurt them immensely in the last few years and even with their transition into the HD era.
 
To even think that Bayonetta hits the same itch/market or will achieve the same relevance as PD/Goldeneye is delusional.

No one game can do that now except COD. The competition in that sphere of games is much greater today then it was back then.

Well first I wanted to point out someone I noticed whose views were consistent, but I just found the question to be a deflection because I don't think the critics who would be unhappy if Nintendo went in a casual direction are the people saying they should have continued the Wii route. The people disgruntled now are the people who were upset during the Wii era but see now that Nintendo screwed the pooch as the chance to voice complaints

I have lots of complaints about Nintendo. But I don't see how Nintendo addressing my complaints would make them better of financially. And I don't see how these other complaints would either, not the way they are being described.
 
No one game can do that now. The competition in that sphere of games is much greater today then it was back then.

The competition had to start somewhere. Nintendo ceding that entire segment of the console shooter market - a market that they arguably helped craft and create - has not done them any favors.
 
The competition had to start somewhere. Nintendo ceding that entire segment of the console shooter market - a market that they arguably helped craft and create - has not done them any favors.

So how much of an investment does Nintendo need to capture X percent of that market? What should X percent be to be significant enough for you?
 
I have lots of complaints about Nintendo. But I don't see how Nintendo addressing my complaints would make them better of financially. And I don't see how these other complaints would either, not the way they are being described.

Nintendo's presence network wise is still terrible. The VC service is a disaster at best and Nintendo has been extremely slow on the uptake of something that has made billions for the industry and them finally being dragged into the internet era. A company with even a slightly relevant western branch would have never let something like that happen. ANd like Opiate said Nintendo's online disaster is part of the reason Apple was able to steal away all of the so called casuals to begin with. Nintendo has the greatest collection of legacy games of any company out there and the fact that they have not only not been able to leverage that but failed catastrophically at creating a more robust system is sad.
 
Because that's exactly what I said

It's like people lose their reading comprehension when companies are brought into the discussion

What you said:

So, shooters? Or "darker, edgier" games? Because if that's what you mean, then there's a little game called Bayonetta 2.

So if you're NOT saying that Bayonetta (a ridiculous fusion of beat em up with off-putting Japanese quirkiness) is the a type of "darker" "edgier" game in the style of Western collabs like Goldeneye/PD - a totally ridiculous conclusion - then maybe the onus is on you to phrase your arguments better.
 
What you said:



So if you're NOT saying that Bayonetta (a ridiculous fusion of beat em up with off-putting Japanese quirkiness) is the a type of "darker" "edgier" game in the style of Western collabs like Goldeneye/PD - a totally ridiculous conclusion - then maybe the onus is on you to phrase your arguments better.

Are you trying to suggest that Bayonetta isn't a "darker, more mature game"? Sales are irrelevant here.

People ask Nintendo for more mature games. Nintendo gives them Bayonetta 2. People still complain

Instead of using garbage terms like "dark and gritty," you should just come out and say you want Nintendo to make Call of Duty, Halo, and Titanfall. Because that's what you really mean
 
I think talking about all these fps games etc for Nintendo is futile at this point. If companies and developers left right and centre can't break the mould I don't see how Nintendo will convince anyone otherwise. Was it futile for Nintendo to give it up when they had it in the palm of its hand? Absolutely.

Now pushing franchises and experiences similar to those found in Metroid Prime? That's something actually feasible and attainable today.
 
Are you trying to suggest that Bayonetta isn't a "darker, more mature game"? Sales are irrelevant here.

People ask Nintendo for more mature games. Nintendo gives them Bayonetta 2. People still complain

Instead of using garbage terms like "dark and gritty," you should just come out and say you want Nintendo to make Call of Duty, Halo, and Titanfall. Because that's what you really mean

I wouldn't classify Bayonetta as a darker, more mature game at all. It's too ridiculous/abstract to fit that criteria.

And I never introduced "garbage terms" like "dark and gritty" into this conversation at all; you're the one inserting those terms into my mouth. Hell, that's the first appearance of those terms in the course of our four-post conversation. Or maybe you're mistaking me for someone else.

But, yes, I do think Nintendo should have invested in (if not necessarily make) the types of games like COD, Halo, and Titanfall as a means of diversifying their lineup.

I'm not quite sure I understand the hostility behind your post; it's beyond just defensive.

So how much of an investment does Nintendo need to capture X percent of that market? What should X percent be to be significant enough for you?

I can't provide a hard number. The point is, if they had continued this legacy past the N64 generation instead of giving up this segment of the market, maybe the investment would have been minimal. Instead, whatever investment they'd make now would necessarily be much greater than if they had maintained continuity in diversification. There's a whole segment of the market past the N64 gen where Nintendo gave up on the western gamer, and when western studios gave up on them, there were holes in both the sports/shooter genre that never got plugged.
 
I think Wii U's holiday season is a lot better than people give it credit for, in terms of hitting all the tentpoles. I think it's just missing a distinctive voice, a game that screams that this is why the Wii U pad is important, that suggests a system that is taking risks and offering experiences you can get nowhere else (and that you don't want to miss, by extension).

This season, though:


Personally, I think it's certainly could stand to be a little more diverse - needs more racing games (in more distinctive forms, not just kart) and fighting games (not just the more family friendly approach of a Smash Bros), for example, and a high profile exclusive FPS or two.

But there's no doubt to me that this is a list with some fairly decent sales potential, if Nintendo can hit the right spot for marketing this season and not get drowned out by Microsoft and Sony. It'll be hard, but I hope they do well. I don't like all that is offering, but it certainly seems to be filling niches XBO and PS4 won't be offering initially, and that is an important quality for a secondary console. Which the Wii U certainly is for me.
 
I wouldn't classify Bayonetta as a darker, more mature game at all. It's too ridiculous/abstract to fit that criteria.

And I never introduced "garbage terms" like "dirty and gritty" into this conversation at all; you're the one inserting those terms into my mouth. Hell, that's the first appearance of those terms in the course of our four-post conversation. Or maybe you're mistaking me for someone else.

But, yes, I do think Nintendo should have invested in (if not necessarily make) the types of games like COD, Halo, and Titanfall as a means of diversifying their lineup.

I'm not quite sure I understand the hostility behind your post; it's beyond just defensive.

The last sentence was basically meant to most people in this thread who seem to want Nintendo to make some magical "mature" game when they really mean Halo or Call of Duty

Why do you think that a Nintendo-funded FPS would have any chance of competing against Halo, Call of Duty, or Titanfall?

And frankly this makes little sense coming from people who also think Nintendo needs to attract third parties. Third parties don't exactly want to compete with Nintendo games and a Nintendo-funded FPS makes it even harder
 
Ok. Well they aren't as profitable anymore so it doesn't matter at all and is kind of a deflection.Nintendo has lost that casual market at least for the forseeable future.

Really? When I see 3 million sold for a game like Animal Crossing in Japan and the majority sold were to women, I see the causal market buying a 3ds, just to play one game. That causal market is still there for Nintendo, but like most things, they need to make more games that will appeal to them.

One thing I am surprised at is that Nintendo hadn't announced a 3DS fit game that is portable and you can take where ever you go.
 
Take out multi platform titles though and the line up is anemic at best.

Right, but why would I? Wii U right now is the only next-gen platform that exists, and as an aside it is also will be some people's -only- platform. In the same way I would evaluate PS4 and Xbox One's lineup as embarrassingly devoid of quality if you strip them of their multiplatform games as well.
 
Take out multi platform titles though and the line up is anemic at best.

Take out multi platform games from the WHOLE of the 360 library and it's more then anaemic. For this amount of 1st party content in between now and years end is ridiculous. Helps that it all looks to be high quality stuff and it's Nintendo's first proper HD attempt while also supporting the ever growing 3DS library. People seem to treat Nintendo different in that regard however for some reason *shrug*
 
The last sentence was basically meant to most people in this thread who seem to want Nintendo to make some magical "mature" game when they really mean Halo or Call of Duty

Why do you think that a Nintendo-funded FPS would have any chance of competing against Halo, Call of Duty, or Titanfall?

And frankly this makes little sense coming from people who also think Nintendo needs to attract third parties. Third parties don't exactly want to compete with Nintendo games and a Nintendo-funded FPS makes it even harder

Well, this goes back to what I was saying earlier in the thread: sometimes it isn't the same people saying both of these things. Sometimes it's different groups of people saying different things and it's a mistake to conflate it all into one contradictory position that "anti-Nintendo" people have (which I don't consider myself a part of at all... I'm a huge Nintendo fan, but I'm critical of them where they've made mistakes).

My position is this: Nintendo needs to attract third-parties. However, considering how they haven't, in those parties' absence (which has been apparent for some time), they should have invested more heavily into shoring up the holes in their lineup. Maybe that would have required them to bankroll their own western studios or maybe it would have required some money-hatting of third-parties (which could have cultivated fanbases for them on Nintendo systems). But anything would be better than the current situation.
 
I think Wii U's holiday season is a lot better than people give it credit for, in terms of hitting all the tentpoles. I think it's just missing a distinctive voice, a game that screams that this is why the Wii U pad is important, that suggests a system that is taking risks and offering experiences you can get nowhere else (and that you don't want to miss, by extension).

Personally, I think it's certainly could stand to be a little more diverse - needs more racing games (in more distinctive forms, not just kart) and fighting games (not just the more family friendly approach of a Smash Bros), for example, and a high profile exclusive FPS or two.

But there's no doubt to me that this is a list with some fairly decent sales potential, if Nintendo can hit the right spot for marketing this season and not get drowned out by Microsoft and Sony. It'll be hard, but I hope they do well. I don't like all that is offering, but it certainly seems to be filling niches XBO and PS4 won't be offering initially, and that is an important quality for a secondary console. Which the Wii U certainly is for me.
I think people tend to lean on "marketing" as some sort of nebulous crutch when a product is underperforming. (I am not saying you are though.) Marketing, or rather advertising - as that's generally what people on here are actually referring to a lot of the time - is there to promote a value proposition, but the fundamental value proposition of a product still needs to be sufficiently appealing in itself.

Examining the Wii U as a product, without a major price drop, it remains essentially a system that is comparable to the PS3 and 360 but that:
  • has less catalog titles
  • has less third party new releases, with some publishers putting out nothing for it
  • is more expensive
  • has a touch screen in the controller
  • has Nintendo's first party output
Three of these are major negatives, one of these is a strong positive. And one of these the market has shown they do not really care about.

To the price-conscious consumer to which the system needs to appeal to (as opposed to the high-end early adopter that the PS4 and XB1 are targeting) it doesn't really matter that it's a nominally 8th gen system. It doesn't really matter how effusive some people on here are about off-screen play either.

The problem remains that the touch screen is not something the market wants, and Nintendo's best efforts to convince people that it is have fallen flat. Looking at the list you've posted then, the value proposition remains solely in the presence of Nintendo's first party efforts, whether that's sufficient to overcome the negative aspects listed above in a consumer value judgement against other systems (to anyone besides the Nintendo core audience) remains to be seen.
 
I think people tend to lean on "marketing" as some sort of nebulous crutch when a product is underperforming. (I am not saying you are though.) Marketing, or rather advertising - as that's generally what people on here are actually referring to a lot of the time - is there to promote a value proposition, but the fundamental value proposition of a product still needs to be sufficiently appealing in itself.

Examining the Wii U as a product, without a major price drop, it remains essentially a system that is comparable to the PS3 and 360 but that:
  • has less catalog titles
  • has less third party new releases, with some publishers putting out nothing for it
  • is more expensive
  • has a touch screen in the controller
  • has Nintendo's first party output
Three of these are major negatives, one of these is a strong positive. And one of these the market has shown they do not really care about.

To the price-conscious consumer to which the system needs to appeal to (as opposed to the high-end early adopter that the PS4 and XB1 are targeting) it doesn't really matter that it's a nominally 8th gen system. It doesn't really matter how effusive some people on here are about off-screen play either.

The problem remains that the touch screen is not something the market wants, and Nintendo's best efforts to convince people that it is have fallen flat. Looking at the list you've posted then, the value proposition remains solely in the presence of Nintendo's first party efforts, whether that's sufficient to overcome the negative aspects listed above in a consumer value judgement against other systems (to anyone besides the Nintendo core audience) remains to be seen.

I agree with you, and wasn't trying to claim that the games existed in a vacuum as a driving force for the system. I believe they need to exist alongside a significant price drop, because consumers have already spoken to what they believe is the value proposition of the Wii U and it is not good.

However, I absolutely do believe getting a mass of high quality games in range of diverse genres with some dependable heavy hitters and water cooler experiences can get the engine revved up again, and I do believe that as a gamer, it is appealing to me to know Wii U is finally kicking into gear. I desire an industry in which Nintendo is competitive alongside whoever else is performing well. It's good for consumers when people are vying for our attention and being on their best behavior.

I think Wii U's lineup is to be commended for finally offering a slate of appealing games that at the very least Nintendo's most loyal fanbase will enjoy (I know I will), but at the most will start getting necks turning every so slightly back in Wii U's favor, if even for the briefest time. I hope they wake up and realize it needs a price drop desperately, however, as being aggressive from that perspective as well as having these games is to me the only chance left they have to realistically salvage the system as a competitive platform in the industry. Maybe it is premature, but it really feels like Nintendo has allowed the negativity surrounding Wii U to fester for so long, it's starting to permeate from every discussion on the platform now.
 
Well, this goes back to what I was saying earlier in the thread: sometimes it isn't the same people saying both of these things. Sometimes it's different groups of people saying different things and it's a mistake to conflate it all into one contradictory position that "anti-Nintendo" people have (which I don't consider myself a part of at all... I'm a huge Nintendo fan, but I'm critical of them where they've made mistakes).

That's how it works for me, anyway. I think Nintendo is still my favorite developer, so therefore I am highly critical of them, because I want them to continue to be great, and because due to my interest in them I am far more passionate about subjects involving them when they do well or poor. I am highly invested in seeing them continue to be a success in the industry, they formed an extremely potent foundation for my childhood and continue to be a part of my favorite hobby, and the games they make remain timeless when they're at their most effective (which is still often).

I just want them to be better :)

My position is this: Nintendo needs to attract third-parties. However, considering how they haven't, in those parties' absence (which has been apparent for some time), they should have invested more heavily into shoring up the holes in their lineup. Maybe that would have required them to bankroll their own western studios or maybe it would have required some money-hatting of third-parties (which could have cultivated fanbases for them on Nintendo systems). But anything would be better than the current situation.

They have got Platinum Games and SEGA. They definitely need to push harder, though. And if they find it impossible, they absolutely NEED to diversify their own lineup to fill in the gaps. Maybe create more thematically bold titles or hire studios that can do it for you; secure a high profile exclusive FPS. Do something with the $14 billion on hand... they seriously need to register how serious the Wii U situation is and react in kind with a solution that matches the current shocking state of that product's health
 
Great replies -

1. Agreed that there are some great people at NoA such as Adelman who has made giant strides in making Wii U a relevant indie platform (ironically, he came from MSFT). I don't mean to discount everyone there and NoA does have some good people. To add some nuance to my point, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think summing it into "NCL controls NoA" effectively gets to the organizational issues at NoA which are self-contained problems. I hope that makes more sense? People have a tendency to just characterize it as a one-way thing (Pachter, for example). NoA aren't a bunch of robots - I think they know what they are doing - and I refuse to believe that Reggie just sits around and says "yes Iwata-san" when the Wii U is failing to capture the public's imagination.

2. Agreed that something is better than nothing. I suppose NoA had a lot of mud on its face after Silicon Knights didn't work out, and in particular, the Geist experiment was a failure (but then again, the GC was effectively dead). I'm not privy to the conversations Reggie has with the rest of his team, but here is my assessment: if Reggie came up with a plan to build up NST and put a task force together to execute it along with a plan to target a series of games for exclusivity, my sense is that NCL would listen. The thing is, I just don't think Reggie could really do it. I'm sorry to say it in such a blunt way. Howard Lincoln wanted Tetris and sent people around the world to get it. What would Reggie do if he really believed in a game or wanted an Indie to make an exclusive game with a bigger budget? One explanation is that even NoA was unprepared for the hit the Wii was going to be - and as a result they were occupied with building their organization for core positions. Based on some people I know who worked at NoA - there was even a belief early on that because the Wii was such a smash hit - games like GTA would end up on the Wii - because the userbase would be too big to ignore. Unfortunately that never panned out and by the time they woke up - the development community had moved on.

3. Finally, also agreed that NCL has issues as well. Yamauchi had a very different approach to management than Iwata does. Iwata is a programmer, he is also pretty introverted and thinks about things very differently having worked in software, so his approach tends to be collaborative rather than top-down. But... I think he is learning how to strike a balance. Look, I ADMIRE Hiroshi Yamauchi. He is one of my heroes. I think he is amazing. Totally misunderstood by many people. But in this era of developer scarcity and numerous platforms, he'd be terrible at running NCL. Iwata's Nintendo has a ton of goodwill in the Japanese development community precisely because they have been so open and collaborative with third parties there and even worked with people and funded games to support the broader development community. Being a developer himself, Iwata knows the grind, and speaks the same language as developers. However, Iwata will really mature when he can foster and cultivate the people around him to make the right choices and reward them even if they don't - because that's what is going to make NoA and NoE both become best-in-class. This is different from giving NoA or NoE "power" - it's about finding the right people and motivating them and encouraging them to take risks. That is why I think he has become the CEO of NoA.

4. One last comment: I agree with Shikamaru that Miyamoto has a lot of control at EAD. This can have implications on developer morale at times when there are disagreements. The thing I'll disagree about is Nintendo not having that creative expanse despite EAD's more narrow focus lately. EAD's goal is to make G-rated games that will sell in every geography, from Japan to Europe to Latin America. Miyamoto is great at driving that product vision. However there is a reason why NCL has funded games like The Last Story, Bayonetta 2, Pandora's Tower, etc. Xenoblade was basically a failure in Japan despite its budget, but NCL still doubled down on Monolithsoft. EAD just isn't big enough right now to experiment the way they did - so talent is a huge issue. My sense is that in the next two years, there will be more risk-taking at EAD, and it will happen with Miyamoto's blessings - right now the state of EAD is "all hands on deck" - and it's something that has implications for creative output beyond simply Miyamoto's personal product vision. Hence, I don't think it's just Miyamoto saying "lets make these games" - I think practical reality trumps other things at the moment.

BTW I would pay money to know the real story around Pikmin 3. From Miyamoto's weird description of the game at an annual shareholder's meeting as primarily a graphics upgrade to his U-turn at E3 where he proclaimed it as one of the best games he's ever worked on because of the game play. Either the game really turned around, or he pissed people off and changed his stance. I imagine it would make for a great investigative journalism piece.
 
The problem remains that the touch screen is not something the market wants, and Nintendo's best efforts to convince people that it is have fallen flat.

This is true but Nintendo themselves haven't really put their best foot forward in getting software that takes advantage of the benefits of the gamepad. Only really Nintendo Land shows off the gamepad and to some extent ZombiU. Pikmin 3, Donkey Kong Country, NSMB:U etc are still Wii-mote+nunchuk. The Wonderful 101 has you draw and with Bayonetta 2 it looks like the pro or Wii mote+nunchuk will be superior.

Off screen play is currently the key feature of the gamepad as opposed to better controls or experience. I'm not saying Nintendo should force gamepad onto their game's but you would think Nintendo would have had 3-4 titles that show off the benefits by now.
 


An incredibly strong lineup of exclusives for the rest of the year. What system has it beat for exclusives?!

IMO All it needs is a nice price drop and good marketing, it'll do well this holiday.
 
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