Support NeoGAF

[bonesmccoy]

Note that although I might appear to defending MJ here, I am not (though I don't really care if anyone thought of me as his defender or whatever); I am just interested how a thorough investigation by a reputable law enforcer like the FBI can be just so thoroughly dismissed like that like it's nothing.

Hand-waving? Stating that there are many, many cases in which charges are unable to be made (due a buffet of circumstances) is to simply state a fact of life. Many crimes go unpunished because the police are unable to secure enough evidence, ie a testimony, to file charges. Especially in sex abuse cases.

About those FBI investigations:

Michael Jackson moonwalked his way out of sex charges despite two previously unknown FBI investigations where agents pursued the King of Pop as a possible pedophile.
The platinum-selling superstar - identified in reports as "Subject: MICHAEL JACKSON" - faced child abuse probes in 1993 and 2004, FBI documents released yesterday show.
The first case disappeared when California federal prosecutors opted not to prosecute Jackson for taking a minor across state lines for "immoral purposes," one 1993 document indicated.
The second case was submarined when the purported victim flatly refused to testify against Jackson, in an FBI document from 11 years later.

The FBI assisted in Jackson molestation investigations in the Philippines and in London, where there was a report he made an X-rated call to a young fan.

The same file included an FBI agent's notes about Jackson, including handwritten notations about his "male chimp."

That same year, Jackson paid $20 million to settle molestation charges by Jordan Chandler, a 13-year-old boy the singer had befriended.

No criminal charges were ever filed in the 1993 case. Instead, the then 12-year-old boy refused to cooperate with officials and accepted a multi-million dollar settlement from Jackson.

The case was closed due to lack of witness cooperation, the FBI said. The victim was not named, and it's unclear if it was Chandler or someone else.
The second FBI probe came as California prosecutors were building their case that Jackson molested a 13-year-old cancer victim at the pop star's Neverland Ranch. He was acquitted in June 2005.

 

[Black-Wind]

That same year, Jackson paid $20 million to settle molestation charges by Jordan Chandler, a 13-year-old boy the singer had befriended.

...

The confession of Michael Jackson accuser Jordan Chandler that he lied in his testimony against the King of Pop in a child molestation case, and the subsequent suicide of his father, Evan Chandler, might be the most under-reported story of the year for 2009. Why is this so?

---

So on such a contentious issue, why was Chandler's confession that he had lied during the 1993 case at the direction of his father (a father that went on to kill himself), hardly reported? Chandler, after all, was one of the key accusers against Jackson and gave some of the most damning testimony. Jackson's insurance company settled out of court with Chandler and his father for $22 million.

Just to give out a run-down on this time wise ...

After Jordan starts accusing MJ they get the mill-pay out.
Shortly after his parent's break up.
More shit happens with MJ.
MJ dies.
A few months after, Even Chandler (Jordan's dad) reportedly shots himself in the head.
Shortly after THAT Jordon steps out and says that Even fabricated the story and had him lie. He says that his dad this this to escape from being poor and that he's sorry that MJ is no longer alive so that he can hear this from him. He blames himself/ his dad for the pain MJ had to go through after that.
Apparently Jordon had a restraining order at some point because he tried to/ said he would beat him with a dumbbell.


Soooo I'm not sure why you're using him in your post.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

popGAFwhen asked if MJ is a pedophile.

CreepGAF can get quite creepy when one of their idols is taken down a peg for something horrible, alleged or no.

It's currently going on in the thread about the Silicon Knights dev that was arrested for child porn.

 

[Sex]

Michael Jackson's name makes me uncomfortable. It's really disturbing the reverence the man has been given considering how obvious it is he was not somebody you would want anywhere near your children.

 

[Air]

I love the people taking liberties with their logic insinuating that a weird guy = pedophile... After an FBI investigation provides additional evidence to his innocence. He was completely warped in the head but there is no concrete evidence to support those accusations of child molestation. This coming from a person whom at the very presence of concrete evidence would drop his music stone cold.

People, your biases are showing. You bring me the evidence and I'll change my mind, but if you can find something better than the FBI fine tooth coming all of an individuals assets coming up with nothing, shady accusers and questionable motives, that would certainly be quite the feat.

Also those saying that if it were any other ordinary guy, he would not have MJ-like support are correct. Every person should receive this level of support until proven guilty, but most people don't have the liberty to touch millins of lives in their lifetime. It's unfair, but that's human nature in a nutshell really (no pun intended).

 

[border]

People, your biases are showing. You bring me the evidence and I'll change my mind, but if you can find something better than the FBI fine tooth coming all of an individuals assets coming up with nothing, shady accusers and questionable motives, that would certainly be quite the feat.

Like I've already said though, it's a sex crime. Unless it is reported within 72-90 hours there is not going to be any evidence. And we're talking about sex crimes that were reported years after the alleged assaults.

I suppose there's always the possibility that there might be incriminating written, recorded, photographic, or video evidence. But there's the same possibility that a molestor might have chosen to not document the encounter(s) or allude to it in letters or communications with others. Plenty of people get touched or fondled by a family member or friend in a way such that no evidence is left. It's not that hard to sexually assault someone and leave no evidence behind.

You're ultimately left with contradicting testimonials of what might have happened, and that's it. Two opposing accounts of the events, and everyone left to choose what they believe based on their own personal biases for or against the parties involved.

 

[The BS Police]

I believe he was innocent, was his behavior odd and inappropriate in some ways for a responsible adult? Yes, no doubt about it. But I don't believe he molested any children.
As for those thinking his celebrity status is the only reason why he got away with it, always remember...

Spoiler

 

[waypoetic]

Recording Earth Song

Whatthehell?! That song is great.

 

[tmarques]

...
Shortly after THAT Jordon steps out and says that Even fabricated the story and had him lie. He says that his dad this this to escape from being poor and that he's sorry that MJ is no longer alive so that he can hear this from him. He blames himself/ his dad for the pain MJ had to go through after that.

You do realise Jordan Chandler's statement admitting he lied is a hoax perpetrated by overzealous MJ fans, right? It never happened.

 

[Air]

Like I've already said though, it's a sex crime. Unless it is reported within 72-90 hours there is not going to be any evidence. And we're talking about sex crimes that were reported years after the alleged assaults.

I suppose there's always the possibility that there might be incriminating written, recorded, photographic, or video evidence. But there's the same possibility that a molestor might have chosen to not document the encounter(s) or allude to it in letters or communications with others. Plenty of people get touched or fondled by a family member or friend in a way such that no evidence is left. It's not that hard to sexually assault someone and leave no evidence behind.

You're ultimately left with contradicting testimonials of what might have happened, and that's it. Two opposing accounts of the events, and everyone left to choose what they believe based on their own personal biases for or against the parties involved.

I'm not even asking for anything related to a smoking gun. Hell, consistent testimonies for one, would be fine. That said, like another person said, either MJ is the dexter of child molestation or at the very least something screwy is going on. I don't have a problem admitting he was weird, shady or whatever, but most artists are that. It's a huge leap to say he actually molested those children, and those are serious allegations that deserve to be carefully considered than just left to their own devices.

 

[Days like these...]

Hey guys I'm having a sleepover for boys any Michael Jackson defenders want to lend me their young sons? I'm an adult and I love women and vajay jay! We're good right? /sarcasm

 

[dapperbandit]

Whether or not he ever actually did those things, people believe he did, including the mothers who sent their kids there with the aim of getting a cash settlement.

 

[captmcblack]

Another year, another random allegation that can't be substantiated.

I'd love for there to be irrefutable proof so that we can finally nail MJ once and for all and tear down the facade of his innocence so that a person who abused children can be at least remembered as that.


...but we keep being devoid of that proof, and you keep getting shady people talking instead.

 

[Air]

Hey guys I'm having a sleepover for boys any Michael Jackson defenders want to lend me their young sons? I'm an adult and I love women and vajay jay! We're good right? /sarcasm

I'm not a defender, because if he molested those children, there should be justice (or should have been). Im a fan of his music, but if it came to light he actually molested those kids, I would jump right over to the prosecution; however, allegations are not enough to convict a man and ruin their name for life.

Plus what captmcblack said:

Another year, another random allegation that can't be substantiated.

I'd love for there to be irrefutable proof so that we can finally nail MJ once and for all and tear down the facade of his innocence so that a person who abused children can be at least remembered as that.


...but we keep being devoid of that proof, and you keep getting shady people talking instead.

 

[Karsticles]

Does anyone actually believe that MJ was a pedophile? I don't.

The majority of the people out there do, in my experience. It's really unfortunate.

 

[Foffy]

The majority of the people out there do, in my experience. It's really unfortunate.

People tend to not really think for themselves, or at the current standing of verifiable evidence. I'm sure you can find cases in the majority of people where this is true, and I'm not saying this to defend Jackson. Many people think he's a kiddy fiddler because of all of the tabloids that went around about it, like how he slept in a chamber.

Because the majority of people think something should never, under any circumstance, make that view correct. It's the evidence that forms such a view that can make it correct or not, not a popularity contest.

 

[Salih]

 

[FoxSpirit]

I do. A parent that would let their kid sleep in his bed is delusional.

Also, it is very common for screwed up parents to not believe their kids when they say they were abused. This is especially common if the kid claims the abuser was a family member or someone the parent liked. It happens all the time. It's horrible and sad, but it does happen.

Yes, but the gist is that the parents were allegedly paid out to keep their mouth shut. So it's not "...not believe their kids when they say they were abused."

I mean, a few parents would take the bribe but ALL?? Not to mention that a successful trial would, as I mentioned, most likely award much higher damages.

 

[DonMigs85]

And? He was a pedophile who should have gone to jail. People tend to be saintified after death and that's been the case for Michael thus far, but those boys still deserve justice.

Can you say that with absolute certainty?

 

[freenudemacusers]

I believe he was innocent, was his behavior odd and inappropriate in some ways for a responsible adult? Yes, no doubt about it. But I don't believe he molested any children.
As for those thinking his celebrity status is the only reason why he got away with it, always remember...

Spoiler

Gary Glitter also had child porn on his computer.

 

[Dreaver]

I don't know if he was a pedophile, but he was sick in his head and needed help. He was a very talented singer for sure, but his actions are very, very questionable. To be fair whenever he did something with the kids or not, it's still a VERY disturbing and sick fact that he slept with the kids. I bet there wouldn't be as much fans defending him if was just a average person (not famous).

But like others said in this thread: he didn't really had a youth so I wouldn't be surprised that he did everything to 'balance'. Extremely fascinated by kids because he never really was a kid.

edit: forgot to add: I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out everything was true. On the other hand it also wouldn't surprise me if he never harmed any kids (but a lot of things are still VERY wrong like the sleeping part).

 

[strobogo]

Does anyone remember those recordings that came out around the time of his death of him singing on unreleased songs and his voiced sounded like a deep black man voice? It was the weirdest thing.

 

[IceCold]

Does anyone remember those recordings that came out around the time of his death of him singing on unreleased songs and his voiced sounded like a deep black man voice? It was the weirdest thing.

He has this song on Invincible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHd1rLurxNk

I don't know if they simply altered his voice or if it's his real voice + audio effects.

 

[akira28]

I'm not disturbed at all by him sleeping with the kids. The guy thought he was a Jesus analogue. He would want to surround himself with adoring children, and that would be the entirety of it. Not because he wasn't to filly-fiddle but because he felt and thought he could be completely innocent and pure like a child.

I realize that this is impossible to contemplate for many of you. But everything doesn't have a sexual basis as it's core. There is a natural adult-child dynamic that has nothing to do with sex. But then we see when that dynamic has been perverted, and that seems to be what most of you descendants of a sicksadworld are made to expect.

 

[Stinkles]

...



Just to give out a run-down on this time wise ...

After Jordan starts accusing MJ they get the mill-pay out.
Shortly after his parent's break up.
More shit happens with MJ.
MJ dies.
A few months after, Even Chandler (Jordan's dad) reportedly shots himself in the head.
Shortly after THAT Jordon steps out and says that Even fabricated the story and had him lie. He says that his dad this this to escape from being poor and that he's sorry that MJ is no longer alive so that he can hear this from him. He blames himself/ his dad for the pain MJ had to go through after that.
Apparently Jordon had a restraining order at some point because he tried to/ said he would beat him with a dumbbell.


Soooo I'm not sure why you're using him in your post.

Did he return all the money?

I'm not disturbed at all by him sleeping with the kids. The guy thought he was a Jesus analogue. He would want to surround himself with adoring children, and that would be the entirety of it. Not because he wasn't to filly-fiddle but because he felt and thought he could be completely innocent and pure like a child.

I realize that this is impossible to contemplate for many of you. But everything doesn't have a sexual basis as it's core. There is a natural adult-child dynamic that has nothing to do with sex. But then we see when that dynamic has been perverted, and that seems to be what most of you descendants of a sicksadworld are made to expect.

Amazing how many people in this thread are exactly sure about what Michael Jackson was thinking, right down to his deepest motivations.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

If anything it make these parents seem horrible. Taking money over their grieving children.

 

[thecouncil]

This is a man who once went to KMart because he heard little boys pants were half off. It was just a sale, of course, but this creep actually got caught up in his dirty thoughts. Should've arrested him right then and there like it was a goddamn sting operation. Obviously a pedophile.

 

[ColonelColon]

...



Just to give out a run-down on this time wise ...

After Jordan starts accusing MJ they get the mill-pay out.
Shortly after his parent's break up.
More shit happens with MJ.
MJ dies.
A few months after, Even Chandler (Jordan's dad) reportedly shots himself in the head.
Shortly after THAT Jordon steps out and says that Even fabricated the story and had him lie. He says that his dad this this to escape from being poor and that he's sorry that MJ is no longer alive so that he can hear this from him. He blames himself/ his dad for the pain MJ had to go through after that.
Apparently Jordon had a restraining order at some point because he tried to/ said he would beat him with a dumbbell.


Soooo I'm not sure why you're using him in your post.

I'm pretty sure this part isn't true.

 

[Sex]

I believe he was innocent, was his behavior odd and inappropriate in some ways for a responsible adult? Yes, no doubt about it. But I don't believe he molested any children.
As for those thinking his celebrity status is the only reason why he got away with it, always remember...

Spoiler

Gary Glitter didn't have millions and millions to pay to children.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Did he return all the money?




Amazing how many people in this thread are exactly sure about what Michael Jackson was thinking, right down to his deepest motivations.

was hoping you'd respond to my post from earlier

 

[Xenon]

Who are you talking about?

 

[pringles]

Having sleep overs with children, children being given alcohol and sleeping in his bed with him, being accused multiple times over the past 20 years of touching children inappropriately...none of that seems like "creepy pedo shit" at all to you?

When it comes to most people in the world, yes it would seem like it was just creepy. But most people don't have the kind of childhood's MJ had. I find it easier to believe he wanted to experience the childhood he never had and he was just too naive to understand that people would get the wrong idea and take advantage of him.


I'm not ruling out that he crossed the line at some point(s), but 99.9% of all stories about what went on at Neverland Ranch make MJ seem like one of the nicest people ever to live, pretty much a big kid. Just the other week I heard a guy calling in to swedish radio talking about his experience visiting Neverland with his son and it sounded like the most awesome experience.

If he had really done terrible things to kids all those years at Neverland, I feel like the dam should break eventually and more and more eyewitnesses and victims would come forward. That's how it usually goes, when the truth starts coming out more and more people get the courage to say "it happened to me too" or "I saw it happen". But that hasn't happened.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I'm not disturbed at all by him sleeping with the kids. The guy thought he was a Jesus analogue. He would want to surround himself with adoring children, and that would be the entirety of it. Not because he wasn't to filly-fiddle but because he felt and thought he could be completely innocent and pure like a child.

I realize that this is impossible to contemplate for many of you. But everything doesn't have a sexual basis as it's core. There is a natural adult-child dynamic that has nothing to do with sex. But then we see when that dynamic has been perverted, and that seems to be what most of you descendants of a sicksadworld are made to expect.

so you would have let your son/nephew/family member spend the night at his house alone?

 

[strobogo]

I think it's really weird that he kept putting himself in dicey situations even after being accused multiple times. You'd think after the first time he'd have no kids over ever again.

 

[akira28]

so you would have let your son/nephew/family member spend the night at his house alone?

I don't know why people find it so profound that others wouldn't let their kids spend the night alone with a familiar nonrelative that they don't personally know well. Especially considering that the multiple sleepovers and the details of the child abuse case don't have many similarities. I suppose if you accepted the theory that MJ was constantly grooming children for sex abuse, you might find need to be suspiscious. But the Arvizo family was particularly close to Jackson. MJ would take them on vacations with him. The siblings would spend nights at his house. They had unusual and possibly extremely unusual access to the inner portions of MJ's life. The mother even told them to call Jackson "daddy". (If you look into the 1998 JC Penny shoplifting case, where the parents had the kids attempt to run off with armloads of clothes. Their credibility has real issues, as parents, and even as trustworthy individuals.)

I think it's possible that these two wanted their kids to be close to MJ for a reason. Complicated thought processes have gone into this to allow for probabilities and further possibilities. I don't maintain Micheal Jackson's innocence. In fact I think it's quite possible that he did do what he was accused of. But it's also possible that he did not. I can not cast out all of the available factors to make a simple conclusion, and it has nothing to do with my affinity for the man, which dried up long ago. But it is possible(possible) that justice wasn't served, and that leaves this entire issue unsettled as far as I'm concerned.

I've hung out with celebrities, where they innocently did things that could have later been construed against them. Because when someone intends to do right, they don't always realize how things look from the outside.

That being said, no. But I'd let them sleep over at Justin Beiber's.

Amazing how many people in this thread are exactly sure about what Michael Jackson was thinking, right down to his deepest motivations.

I commend you jumping onto your own sword to make a great point. Salute.

Having sleep overs with children, children being given alcohol and sleeping in his bed with him, being accused multiple times over the past 20 years of touching children inappropriately...none of that seems like "creepy pedo shit" at all to you?

Well are the sources of the stories of him giving children alcohol reliable? There are so many rumors and repeated rumors and variations of rumors from former employees, both saying he did and didn't. And we have lots of people in here repeating it as fact. Do we know for a fact that this was done? Or even on good suspicion? Many of those saying such felt that Jackson owed them money or had fired them unjustly. Others had been accused of theft and more. So these are extremely murky waters.

 

[Stinkles]

was hoping you'd respond to my post from earlier

Many, many people believe Lewis Carroll was less than innocent but that his reputation has been salved by time and appreciation of his work. So it's probably not a good example.

 

[Jarek23]

They describe how the Thriller hit-maker was once caught by a member of his household staff groping a world-famous child star, watching porn films while molesting another boy and fondling the genitals of a third in his private cinema,” Britain’s PEOPLE reported late on Saturday.

“The mother of one of the youngsters was sitting two or three rows in front of them at the time – unaware of the vile abuse her son was suffering.”

What?

So the mother of one of the children was in there watching porn films with him and her children? Yeah this story sounds real.

 

[SUPREME1]

I'm not disturbed at all by him sleeping with the kids.

Lmao. Oh wow.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I refuse to believe this, that said if I had kids I wouldn't let them stay at MJs home. I know its unfair but the talks activate my flight response regardless, sorry. I love you MJ.

 

[akira28]

Many, many people believe Lewis Carroll was less than innocent but that his reputation has been salved by time and appreciation of his work. So it's probably not a good example.

I think it's a good example. Regardless of what the "many, many" have assumed over the decades after the fact. At the time he was supposedly after the eldest sister and the nanny, but years later, people start questioning. And all of it looking from the outside in? Because it makes sense? Based on an almost certainly misunderstood and possibly completely unrelated detail.

Lmao. Oh wow.

grace us. please.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I think it's really weird that he kept putting himself in dicey situations even after being accused multiple times. You'd think after the first time he'd have no kids over ever again.

Did you ever watch his 60 minutes interview? He honestly didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing. He didn't understand what was so creepy about playing with children and having slumber parties with them. This wasn't a man who was doing something morally reprehensible and damaging to others or who viewed his actions as socially awkward or potentially criminally damning.

He was just a naive man with all the resources in the world living a childhood he never had the chance to experience, and in the process, infringing on social norms that could be seen to others as signs of someone who was mentally deranged or predatory.

 

[strobogo]

Naivety should give way after the 6th or 7th lawsuit, you'd think. I'd think, at least.

 

[akira28]

Naivety should give way after the 6th or 7th lawsuit, you'd think. I'd think, at least.

I'm not sure there were that many...but it did look like he stopped didn't it? Stopped everything and just did his family thing. Then one final tour that killed him.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I've often thought that IF MJ was really a pedophile/child molester, that wouldn't stop parents from sending kids from their house, in some sick perverse attempt at a pay day. The two ideas (the parents being money grubbing scumbags and MJ being a child abuser) are not mutually exclusive. You might ask "What kind of parent would knowingly send their child to the arms of a child molester?" but really, even if deep down Michael were innocent, what kind of parent would send their kid for unsupervised sleepovers at the house of an adult stranger who has been accused of child molestation in the past? Either way we are dealing with really shitty parents here.

 

[WingM@n]

The FBI raided his house(s) and confiscated sixteen computers, thousands of dvd's and video tapes, tens of thousands of books and magazines and photo's.
They didn't find ANYTHING ilegal.

Pedo's always have large collections of ilegal videos and pictures, MJ had none..

 

[Escape Goat]

The FBI raided his house(s) and confiscated sixteen computers, thousands of dvd's and video tapes, tens of thousands of books and magazines and photo's.
They didn't find ANYTHING ilegal.

Pedo's always have large collections of ilegal videos and pictures, MJ had none..

but hes weird! That means hes guilty.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Many, many people believe Lewis Carroll was less than innocent but that his reputation has been salved by time and appreciation of his work. So it's probably not a good example.

that's kinda the point though, isn't it?
the fact that it's not clear, one way or the other..
If you read the Wikipedia link, it also mentions many modern scholars who believe he wasn't a pedophile.

 

[akira28]

How good is this dude? Evaded the FBI, paid off scores of people. 35 Million dollars!

And I'm torturing logic because I think its possible he was innocent, even with all the allegations and rumors.

"There was just not enough evidence. They were forced to let him go. He outsmarted them all, somehow."

He's like the Bond villain of child molestation.

(When there actually is a Bond villain of child molestation that they were going after. Nondescript looking college professor guy.)

 

[freenudemacusers]

The FBI raided his house(s) and confiscated sixteen computers, thousands of dvd's and video tapes, tens of thousands of books and magazines and photo's.
They didn't find ANYTHING ilegal.

Pedo's always have large collections of ilegal videos and pictures, MJ had none..

pedophiles also don't generally have parents throw children at them either, nor do they possess incalculable funds.


note that I am making a statement in either direction. simply pointing out that this is not your typical situation.

I've often thought that IF MJ was really a pedophile/child molester, that wouldn't stop parents from sending kids from their house, in some sick perverse attempt at a pay day. The two ideas (the parents being money grubbing scumbags and MJ being a child abuser) are not mutually exclusive. You might ask "What kind of parent would knowingly send their child to the arms of a child molester?" but really, even if deep down Michael were innocent, what kind of parent would send their kid for unsupervised sleepovers at the house of an adult stranger who has been accused of child molestation in the past? Either way we are dealing with really shitty parents here.

there have been enough news reports on gaf alone about parents treating their children like sex slaves for all sorts of reasons, so it wouldn't suprise me.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

I'm not disturbed at all by him sleeping with the kids. The guy thought he was a Jesus analogue. He would want to surround himself with adoring children, and that would be the entirety of it. Not because he wasn't to filly-fiddle but because he felt and thought he could be completely innocent and pure like a child.

I realize that this is impossible to contemplate for many of you. But everything doesn't have a sexual basis as it's core. There is a natural adult-child dynamic that has nothing to do with sex. But then we see when that dynamic has been perverted, and that seems to be what most of you descendants of a sicksadworld are made to expect.

This is some god-tier trolling right here. I'm still trying to determine if you are serious or not.