I suppose, but that seems quite an accomplishment for a guild that doesn't care about add control and is content with things killing healers.
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Beta Phase 3 Impression: Phase 4 August
- Thread starter N.A
- Start date
- Status
I suppose, but that seems quite an accomplishment for a guild that doesn't care about add control and is content with things killing healers.
Shouta
Member
aliencowz7
Member
How do you explain WoW then, which is the game with probably the most widely used dps meters / parsers of any mmo out there. It isn't system level and yet people still flock to it in droves.
It is pretty much impossible to eyeball DPS without performing the same tasks a parser would yourself and pulling all the relevant data from the combat log and that has nothing to do with different anecdotes. If for say Kirin from FFXI had a mechanic that required your group to be putting out 30k dps over all its players and your group just kept failing repeatedly with no tools to better understand the data points do you really think they could just eyeball how far off they were from that required 30k dps point they need to reach?
We may have different anecdotal experiences but I think its fair to say the burden when fighting to have a feature omitted or removed is on the side that is trying to take it away and without explaining how you think WoW happened with non system based I cant really get down with the idea that it makes some big difference whether its system addon or outside program based.
theSlacker
Member
Grammar related to acronyms doesn't go off the abbreviated word, but the the sound of how the acronym is pronounced. Another example is "I'm going to play an mmorpg" as opposed to "I'm going to play a mmorpg". When pronouncing the M in the acronym it starts with a vowel sound so you use "an". You don't set it up like someone would be thinking or saying the word "massively" where the "a" would instead be appropriate.
Can you tell if I am talking out of my ass or not? I'm not even sure at this point.
It's not about the people who will use a parser regardless, or about abusers, it's about the parser at a system level becoming internalized for the community. XIV should not be about the numbers.
One's baseline for comparison when using meters should always be A) your own past data and B) another character of the same class doing the same thing as you in the fight.
Any other comparison is disingenuous as it either ignores differences in roles in the fight (a DD responsible for adds is probably going to have lower DPS than one who stays on the boss the whole time, even if the add-killer DD is better geared and more skilled), ignores class/job differences (which may indicate a balance "problem"), or ignores fight-specific mechanics which may have a large influence. Works the same way for anyone, not just DPS. And as always, context and mechanics of the fight must be considered.
Teletraan1
Banned
The base wow UI is so terrible that you are almost forced into some sort of addons in order to make it functional. Not to mention a lot of guilds require you to have DBM/Bigwigs/loot addons. So while you are getting a proper UI and boss mods you might as well grab skada/recount. Plus they make it so easy with things like curse client that you don't really have any sort of barrier to addons on wow, in fact its almost part of the culture of the game. Other games with mods can be much more daunting to a layperson.
WoW is incredibly popular and it has its elitists, but there are also many casual players who do not use parsers. People who want to measure DPS can use 3rd party parsers, I'm not against that. And a fight designed to require a massive DPS above a ridiculous threshold is a poorly designed fight. EDIT: for that matter, the context of the fight also counts, and I'd imagine some debate and internal analysis could reach that conclusion without requiring a parser.
I'm pretty sure I and others have made the case already. Unless there's a study done I don't think we can come to a factual conclusion either way, but to dismiss the notion that an in-game tool to measure your performance as a player will have effects on community mindset is shortsighted in my opinion. YoshiP and the rest of the XIV team seem to have done their homework regarding it. You can't use WoW as justification to keep the DPS meter unless I can use Ragnarok Online as justification on my end to keep it out, and in both cases that would be wrong as we'd still just have anecdotes.
Lastly, this is a fight to get a feature implemented, not taken away. YoshiP has no intention of letting players use the DPS meter.
I was a raid officer in a successful WoW guild for several years and DPS meters do give you a good picture of who is not performing up to par. Sure, one's DPS may suffer on individual fights due to encounter mechanics (ie. adds, random debuffs that force you to move, a focus on survivability over DPS, etc.).
But over the course of an entire raid instance, you definitely start to see a stratification of players -- those who consistently top it and those who consistently fall near the bottom. Generally, since WoW rotations weren't really that difficult, the difference in players' DPS came down to how much DPS uptime they maintained.
It was a very useful tool to improve raid performance. We didn't kick players out of raids for sucking. But a parser and DPS meter can do a good job in pinpointing what they're doing wrong, if spec and gear is not an issue. Later on, when you're farming a raid instance and fighting a boss for the umpteenth time, competition between DPS is often the one thing that keeps it fresh.
But over the course of an entire raid instance, you definitely start to see a stratification of players -- those who consistently top it and those who consistently fall near the bottom. Generally, since WoW rotations weren't really that difficult, the difference in players' DPS came down to how much DPS uptime they maintained.
It was a very useful tool to improve raid performance. We didn't kick players out of raids for sucking. But a parser and DPS meter can do a good job in pinpointing what they're doing wrong, if spec and gear is not an issue. Later on, when you're farming a raid instance and fighting a boss for the umpteenth time, competition between DPS is often the one thing that keeps it fresh.
I don't see how dps meters could be harmful at all. If you don't want to join a group that is "tryhard" then don't join them, join a more casual group. Let the people that want dps meters use them and let the people that don't want them not use them, everyone wins.
Path of Exile had a similar problem to this a while back when they wanted to add more loot options other then FFA. Every pro-FFA person demanded that it had to be FFA loot and nothing else and that it would destroy public groups because no one would ever join a FFA group. They ended up implementing loot options and it turns out everyone loved them and there was a good mix of party types for public groups. There was 1000+ pages of forums posts about loot before the change, now there are hardly any.
Path of Exile had a similar problem to this a while back when they wanted to add more loot options other then FFA. Every pro-FFA person demanded that it had to be FFA loot and nothing else and that it would destroy public groups because no one would ever join a FFA group. They ended up implementing loot options and it turns out everyone loved them and there was a good mix of party types for public groups. There was 1000+ pages of forums posts about loot before the change, now there are hardly any.
aliencowz7
Member
Except its not if the other people in the thread saying they are going to allow add ons are correct. I can't say firsthand if that is something they / yoshida has said but if it is indeed true then its pretty much garunteed there will be dps meter add ons or parsing add ons. At that point it falls to the people against it to prove to them why it should be removed.
Who says it shouldn't be about the numbers? Maybe I'm old school but, at the end of the day, RPGs are (mostly) about constantly evolving/improving your character and you accomplish that by getting bigger numbers on your gear, which then allows you to hit/hurt something with bigger numbers.
Are the numbers all that matter? Of course not. Exploring the world and sharing the many challenging experiences the game has with others are both equally important. However, if I'm clearing the Crystal Tower for the 8th time its not because I like doing the same things over and over. Nor am I going to farm for days just because I like making fake money. Its all about getting an awesome new piece of equipment for myself and coming back the next week and seeing the impact it has on my character; often in relation to others. I derive a great deal of fun from those numbers.
3rd party add on =/= system level implementation. I'm arguing against parsers being enabled by default, not mods. And it was said earlier in the thread about YoshiP when the new pics were posted. He has no plans to give the feature to players to use. I'm not against 3rd party programs, you can use that if you want. I'm not arguing that add on parsers be removed. Seems you don't really know what I'm trying to convey :u
Spiritreaver
Member
Do PUP maneuvers last 5 mins now?
Who says? Me, and others here, and many others elsewhere. XIV should be about immersion, the numbers are just there to give an indication of strength. They aren't the focus. As for the rest, that's your play style, not everyone's. There's nothing wrong with basing everything off your stats and combat performance, but recognize that it isn't the only way to play an MMO.
aliencowz7
Member
I think I get what you are saying, I just don't really get how it would be. I genuinely don't see a difference between them being add ons or added along with the game because if the add on is useful enough the vast vast majority are just going to download it regardless. If that many people download it the same mentality is going to develop as if everyone already had it and your option will still be to either deal with it or avoid people that use them.
I feel like you either have to advocate for zero parsers or meters whether they be add ons or built in or you need to just allow them and avoid them if that be your choice because anywhere in the middle is just going to come to the same end result. We may just have to agree to disagree though because it doesn't seem either of us is really able to make any headway on the others viewpoint.
No, you are assuming the majority of players will download parsers, and that is a false assumption.
aliencowz7
Member
Ergh, I think if you asked just about anyone that played a significant amount of WoW they would tell you that it isn't a false assumption. Even EQ and FFXI years and years ago had a majority of the playerbase using parsers or utilizing someone they knew who used parsers to give them relevant data and the trend has only grown as MMO's and the internet in general have become more modern.
It's not really an assumption if its going off my own personal experience, you can claim anecdotal if you want but when enough anecdotal experiences start to line up its probably pretty safe to assume there may just be some fire alongside the smoke. Even Shouta earlier who was staunchly against meters or parsers in any form had formed his opinion based on just how widespread they were in both ffxi and wow which neither had it baked in on a system level.
You're going to have to prove that the majority of MMO players use parsers then. Anecdotes just aren't enough. They certainly aren't enough to settle our debate about whether parsers should be system level or not
And thats your play style. There are tons who enjoy those numbers.
Exactly; thats my point. You're the one telling us what the game should/shouldn't be "about".
I didn't say that I base everything off of stats and combat performance -- in fact, I'm certain I mentioned things I thought were equally as important. I do have a great deal of fun with the numbers.
It was in relation to my opinion that a parser shouldn't be enabled at system level. When it affects the entire system, I'm going to give my opinion on what I believe the overall focus should be. You've given yours as well :u this isn't an objective debate, it's a debate of opinions yo. What you've said here doesn't discount my post.
I do too man. However, numbers are just a tool for measuring character abilities. A lot of people don't view those as very important past being sufficient to progress an area. In respect of having different styles of play and keeping it that way, I'd rather the DPS meter not be enabled. You can still use parsers/DPS meters from 3rd parties if you wish.
Teletraan1
Banned
I miss this game. What is our best case/most realistic scenario for when Phase 4 starts?
August...9th? seems to be the consensus so far.
Ploid 3.0
Member
This reminds me of my first experience with a high level character leveling a lower level character and spoke English. She told us the future of our classes, and was brutally honest. I remember it like it was yesterday. I felt doomed, I stuck with thief because Spiderlily (SpiderJerusalem on neogaf) made it look so cool. I later noticed a lot of my Thief role models were different classes. Hogashi (ffxi gaf shell member) was still thief, but he became a bit grumpy with the advancements of the class, and maybe loved Thief/war too much. I spent a day trying to show him the benefits of assassin, and how it changed EVERYTHING. Good times.
I'm happy I stuck with it, though I probably would have gotten so much done if I leveled bard. No countless hours LFP, no being left out of BCs which were a good source of gil (I had stacks of beast seals, and kindred seals. One of my final acts in the game was letting someone use my account so they could spend the seals). This time, if I play, I'm leveling the bardiest (FFXI bard) support class, something no group wants to be without. For fun classes, I'll do those later.
You're going to have to prove that the majority of MMO players use parsers then. Anecdotes just aren't enough. They certainly aren't enough to settle our debate about whether parsers should be system level or not
Just one DPS parser, Recount, has nearly 400,000 downloads a month and 45,000,000 total downloads just from one WoW mod website says something. Its also one of the top downloaded addons in a game where everyone says that the game is nearly unplayable without any addons.
It just sucks having to jump through hoops to get some pretty basic functions into the game. It would be nice if there were more built in systems instead of having to rely on third parties systems that may not even exist.
theSlacker
Member
I'm sure you also had your share of people booting you out of groups when something dropped, because you have treasure hunter so can get it easily.
When thinking back on the game sometimes I have to remind myself that I spent more time sitting LFG then I did actually leveling to 75 the first time. And probably nearly as much time putting together any gil I could to buy necessary gear and items. Have to keep myself from going full nostalgia goggles.
aliencowz7
Member
You're going to have to prove that the majority of MMO players use parsers then. Anecdotes just aren't enough. They certainly aren't enough to settle our debate about whether parsers should be system level or not
You can't say it's a "false assumption" and ask for numbers when you didn't provide any yourself to prove that my statement was false in the first place.
The numbers game goes both ways, you made the claim of a systemwide meter creating a toxic community. You haven't remotely proved that a majority of people don't use meters, a majority of people who do use meters use them improperly, and the majority of people who would start using meters for the first time if they were system wide would use them improperly. You have provided nothing but anecdotes and guesses yourself.
Obviously we're going to end up going in circles but you can hardly make a claim with no proof yourself and then ask anyone who disagrees to provide it.
That's not how it works. You need to provide proof that it is the case first before I can deny it. The burden's on you here to prove it, not me to disprove it. Just as the burden was on me to give solid proof that the parser being at a system level would affect the community, and I don't have any beyond my own anecdotal experience. It does indeed go both ways.
45m over how many years? Even then, that's about half of WoW's subs - not most. And I disagree that it's basic. It is an add on, not a basic function.
EDIT: LOL, I mistook WoW's subs for 80m. Stupid mistake. I'll leave it up as a testament to my periodic stupidity
I'll throw in that in Ragnarok (I talk about it a lot because it's the MMO i've had the most experience in) there are a ton of people who use meters and the game's damage indicator in the text box to measure performance. However, they are not the majority, and while there are a lot of them, they don't constitute most of the community (though they do run the economy).That's what I did, shoved a real video card into my Costco-bought HP tower,replaced the PSU and left everything else alone. The only problem I had was I had to relocate the optical drive to make everything fit, as the PSU was about 1.5x larger than the stock one and the cables went every which way. Three years later it's still working fine. Someone savvier than I is gonna have to figure out your PCI situation.
Just wanted to note this here. Let's hope XIV's not unplayable without having to resort to add ons, ya?
Ploid 3.0
Member
Yeah, some classes just didn't have much of a place in events. One of the things that made me love Beastmaster so much is that I could bypass a lot of the LFG waiting and just get stuff done. It made it so LFG was unacceptable for me, and kind of ruined everything about grouping since. If there were no book, and abyssea exp party alliances I never would have leveled another class after beastmaster.
My level 61 red mage got more play time than my 73ish thief when I joined a shell that I had some authority in. It was all true, "thief poked things with their weak daggers." They were just there for the TH, dynamis pulls, and bench warming. I hated the way people thought TH worked, thief kills the most, it really drove home the point that we were tickling those bosses, embarrassing. Thiefs wanted to at least try to make it so their slot wasn't a waste. There was competition on what damage the thiefs were doing between shells. We started getting more useful abilities that helped our spike damage, and help on our enmity distribution roles which we only had Trick Attack to use prior. Thief ended up in a good spot, like the other unwanted classes.
FFXIV 2 will hopefully start off in a good spot since they had a huge beta period with FFXIV 1.0 + the actual betas. No one likes to feel as if they are being carried even if they are doing the best they can do.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The beta seemed plenty playable to me. Even without DEEPS MEETAHs.
The feeling of a job being unwanted or left out is why I think Yoshida and crew should be extra careful when adding more classes and jobs down the road.
Either way, I still get to punch the shit out of things and relax with a fishing pole in game. I can sit back and chill for hours in the duty finder due to that fact alone.
Either way, I still get to punch the shit out of things and relax with a fishing pole in game. I can sit back and chill for hours in the duty finder due to that fact alone.
Big fan of fishing in MMOs. I used to fish as a kid but currently live in the desert so I don't fish very often...
Ploid 3.0
Member
The DPS parsing is just a tool people got used to. Imagine tabbed browsing, it's not needed, but it's nice to have. Don't make it seem like they are "try hards" because they like the convenience of having such things. I only had it for one MMO and it's just nice to have. It gives you the information that can help you optimize your habbits, or purchases (not sure if FFXIV will have a variety of gear and gear stats). You don't need a speedometer in racing games, it's nice to see for people that are trying to beat records.
I'm not against them in principle, just against them at a system level. I don't think it fits in well with ARR or what it's trying to do.
Well, I'm not trying to discount how anyone wants to play the game; just saying that your way isn't the only way and why I feel that "numbers" are very important to the game.
What measure are you using to determine that "a lot of people" don't view it as important? I'm also unsure as to when this became a discussion about system level damage meter. I wouldn't want what was shown in that pic anyway.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Meters/parsers are a good tool, it lets people know the best way to maximize damage and let's developers understand what's popular at the moment and helps them as people figure things out they might have looked over. This also let's them make more and more challenging battles.
(Attempts derailing the current conversation.)
So, that DVD they're including in the physical CE, the one that explains the backstory and some of the lore. I assume its a fairly safe bet it'll be on Youtube pretty fast right? Should be be taking bets on how long it'll take?
So, that DVD they're including in the physical CE, the one that explains the backstory and some of the lore. I assume its a fairly safe bet it'll be on Youtube pretty fast right? Should be be taking bets on how long it'll take?
Don't worry Cappy, there will be plenty of us to keep you company
.(Denisa Petra from Phase 3 here).This happened to me on an Ifrit party back in 2011, it was a random party, I was running my parser just for self-improvement since Materia had just been added and Lancers well all the rage during that fight.
Then at the end of the fight this other dude just comes out boasting to his CNJ mate how he was better than the other LNCs and had done so much more damage than the rest of us, which with his -Ifrit weapon- compared to everyone else that just had that crappy craftable spear from back then.
For the next 4 or 5 fights we did the guy didn't shut up posting the numbers and saying how shit we were, it was funny how it was always his CNJ mate the one asking to post the numbers, there wanted just to ridicule the rest of us when there was nothing we could to realistically improve those numbers without the same weapon. At the end of the fights I blacklisted the two guys for being dicks, and I believe a few of the other party members also did.
I'm not arguing about dps meters to appear on the UI or not. As I mentioned earlier I've been using parsers since FFXI so I could care less about having that info shown in the UI when there would be no way to store it. Thinking well about it, I just don't think this tool should be able to everyone because it will just cause distress during DF/random parties. I'm just defending the use of a parser as part of an endgame LS/FC and how for that purpose it is only beneficial.
Oh the memories. As someone who really wanted to level FFXI's pet classes (coming from jobs like Necro, Druid, and Enchanter from EQ at the time), dealing with the reality of their desirability in parties was harsh, especially following up on my Bard. I loved the aesthetics of my PUP for example and did a ton of damage at lower levels (double most of my party members in the 25-30 jungle area), but that didn't matter cause PUP was mediocre in 75 merits parties so no one invited me. Same with BST and SMN. Those balancing issues went on for years, it still wasn't fixed when i quit over 5 years later (that was before the level cap increased beyond 75, WoW had taken over by then).
Really, I probably shouldn't have been so stubborn on the jobs I liked because the option to job change on the same character was always there. But the opposite was also true: why make the jobs if they are going to be so imbalanced and ineffective for such a long time, especially in a game so heavily focused on group content? Some of those jobs weren't cheap to level (the PUP parts from the solo 60 BC easily ran for 400k+ on my server and there were quite a few of them, for example) and it seemed wrong that I'd "discover" said job to ultimately be a "waste of time" if I wanted to do anything besides attack those Campaign monsters for buffers to keep from de-leveling...I'm glad that it sounds like they fixed the issues when Abyssea came out, but they need to be on the ball with that stuff more. I don't want to wait years again.
I grant you the inconvenient part for some, but how are they against the ToS, they don't modify or interact with the game at all. The only thing they do is go into (in the case of XIV 1.0) your My Games/FFXIV folder and read the .log file.
I'm going to give you a quick example of what I can see from a .log file of ARR by simply double-clicking on it and opening it with Notepad:
Code:
File: C:\Users\******\Documents\My Games\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn (Beta Version)\4A4104A4\log\00000010.log
You use Skull Sunder.51E343C806A9:: î¯
The inferno drake takes 84(+50%) damage.51E343C8082B::'
Tocahantus Tokerson'Ï uses Heavy Shot.51E343C80AA9:: î¯
The inferno drake takes 71 damage.51E343C8152E:: î¯ '
Tocahantus Tokerson'Ï gains the effect of Straighter Shot.51E343C9092B::'
Kotake Twinrova'Ï begins casting Cure.51E343CA0AA9::'
Agirga Sharq'Ï hits the inferno drake for 49 damage.51E343CA14AA::
The inferno drake misses you.51E343CA0AA9::'
Tocahantus Tokerson'Ï hits the inferno drake for 52 damage.51E343CA06A9::
You hit the inferno drake for 49 damage.51E343CA082B::'
Agirga Sharq'Ï uses Vorpal Thrust.51E343CA0AA9:: î¯
The inferno drake takes 105(+50%) damage.51E343CB042B::
You use Butcher's Block.51E343CB06A9:: î¯
Critical! The inferno drake takes 178(+61%) damage.51E343CB082B::'
Tocahantus Tokerson'Ï uses Straight Shot.51E343CB0AA9:: î¯
Critical! The inferno drake takes 105 damage.51E343CB152E:: î¯ 'Oops.. and they are actually in the UI.
Riposte
Member
Watching damage or exp parsers was one of the ways to keep me somewhat interested in what was going on in FFXI exp parties. Always up for competition between party members or pushing the exp rate to the breaking point. Didn't really do that for FFXIV (I think it was a pain in the ass to install or something), but I did usually ask someone after a primal battle how I did. I still was really into maximizing my damage, getting the most out of combos for staying power and managing evasion abilities to avoid AoEs I'd normally have to dodge.
Anyone else feel enmity isn't even an issue in FFXIV? As a THM for several dungeons and as a DRG for one, I don't think I ever stole hate.
Anyone else feel enmity isn't even an issue in FFXIV? As a THM for several dungeons and as a DRG for one, I don't think I ever stole hate.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
THM can steal hate pretty easy if they derp it up and go all out from the start
Tanks abilities (combos, Overpower and Flash) are very strong, so if you just happened to have competent (not even good but just decent) tanks during the beta, then it is understandable you never did.
From my position as tank in the beta I can say that keeping hate on a group of mobs wasn't hard, but it was about being careful and always keeping the threat up on those slept mobs mostly. Besides that, combos will keep the threat at the maximum level, and the only realistically way I see for someone stealing hate is through better gear (top decked out dps vs average geared tank).
Also with Provoke being such an amazing tool, there's no way that someone can take the focus of the tank for longer than a couple of seconds. Provoke puts the tank at the top of the thread list and if followed promptly by Flash and a combo, will put thinks back in order.
As a tank the biggest challenge is managing crowds, not single targets.
I managed to pull hate a fair bit on single target mobs as THM/BLM, I duno if it was due to a shoddy tank or my DPS was exceptional lol. /shrug
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I dont suck at tanking and yeah, THM can pull agro like a mofo if they attack with out giving the tank a small bit of warm up time. Their burst is insane.
- Status