Star Wars Episode 7 - Thread of Pre-Production

brandonh83 said:
I think what he means is that there is also some bad acting and dialogue in the originals. Sure those movies are great, but for example that Han and Leia kissing scene in the Falcon is pretty cringe-worthy and would be laughed at now; but back then, "cheese" was pretty commonplace as it is in a lot of science fiction films of that pedigree.

I'm not going to make excuses for the prequels -- I like them -- but I do think that they're given way too much shit, and the originals are given way too much praise. I love the originals just as much as the next person, but I don't think they're wonderfully written or acted by any stretch.
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I get what he's saying and it's true to an extent but wut

dialogue's bad in that scene but it's far from portrayed poorly. better than 99% of the first kiss sequences in the many blockbusters i've seen.
 
I dunno.

Until Dark Knight Returns, I don't know if there was blockbuster death scene as unintentionally funny as Pernilla August's in Attack of the Clones.

Although I guess both of them pale in comparison to Matrix Revolution.
 
Attack of the Clones is actually more ineptly made. And it subtracts Jar Jar, yeah, but it degrades all the remaining characters (save for Obi-Wan) in the meantime.

It's overall a more negative viewing experience. It's the ugliest movie Lucas has ever shot. It's also (and this is saying something) houses THE worst dialog he's ever written.

The ONLY thing that improves from Phantom Menace to Clones is the score - and even then, that ends up ultimately worse because the Geonosis battle is scored with leftover cues from Phantom Menace.
 
BobbyRoberts said:
Attack of the Clones is actually more ineptly made. And it subtracts Jar Jar, yeah, but it degrades all the remaining characters (save for Obi-Wan) in the meantime.

It's overall a more negative viewing experience. It's the ugliest movie Lucas has ever shot. It's also (and this is saying something) houses THE worst dialog he's ever written.

The ONLY thing that improves from Phantom Menace to Clones is the score - and even then, that ends up ultimately worse because the Geonosis battle is scored with leftover cues from Phantom Menace.
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I don't even necessarily disagree with these things and I still like Clones more. I did think Phantom had a better score though.
 
brandonh83 said:
I think what he means is that there is also some bad acting and dialogue in the originals. Sure those movies are great, but for example that Han and Leia kissing scene in the Falcon is pretty cringe-worthy and would be laughed at now; but back then, "cheese" was pretty commonplace as it is in a lot of science fiction films of that pedigree. Also Carrie Fisher was terrible in the movies after A New Hope, and Mark Hamill never blew my socks off either. Neither one of them were bad per se, but they didn't turn in exceptional performances either.

I'm not going to make excuses for the prequels -- I like them -- but I do think that they're given way too much shit, and the originals are given way too much praise. I love the originals just as much as the next person, but I don't think they're wonderfully written or acted by any stretch. Now, how flawed they are compared to the prequels is obviously a different story, the writing and acting in the originals is definitely better. But I've never considered, in general, that much of the dialogue or acting in any of the Star Wars films have been worth any praise.
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The charm of those movies, those scenes, those characters isn't that they're Shakespeare, but that they're full of character, personality, they're unique, memorable, funny in the right ways, silly in the right ways, human in the right ways.
 
Peru said:
The charm of those movies, those scenes, those characters isn't that they're Shakespeare, but that they're full of character, personality, they're unique, memorable, funny in the right ways, silly in the right ways, human in the right ways.
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Yeah I know. And I agree, I like those characters and that scene. I'm just looking at it from a critical point of view. It's all subjective, I mean someone can say that about that scene and someone else could watch it and find it to be bad.
 
brandonh83 said:
I don't even necessarily disagree with these things and I still like Clones more. I did think Phantom had a better score though.
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Almost every warm memory I still have of that time stems STRAIGHT from the score Williams wrote. And not even Duel of the Fates (although, seriously, Duel of the Fates is fucking great) but the Droid Army theme, Anakin's Theme, Qui-Gon's Funeral... Damn great score.
 
BobbyRoberts said:
Almost every warm memory I still have of that time stems STRAIGHT from the score Williams wrote. And not even Duel of the Fates (although, seriously, Duel of the Fates is fucking great) but the Droid Army theme, Anakin's Theme, Qui-Gon's Funeral... Damn great score.
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Totally. It's amazing. I thought all three prequels had some of the best scores Williams ever did. Revenge of the Sith had my favorite though. That thing was just nuts.
 
BobbyRoberts said:
Attack of the Clones is actually more ineptly made. And it subtracts Jar Jar, yeah, but it degrades all the remaining characters (save for Obi-Wan) in the meantime.

It's overall a more negative viewing experience. It's the ugliest movie Lucas has ever shot. It's also (and this is saying something) houses THE worst dialog he's ever written.

The ONLY thing that improves from Phantom Menace to Clones is the score - and even then, that ends up ultimately worse because the Geonosis battle is scored with leftover cues from Phantom Menace.
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I dislike The Phantom Menace less so than Attack of the Clones just because it was far more fun. Because it had things like Jar Jar, pod-racing, Darth Maul with fucking double-lightsabers, and a kid flying that kickass Naboo ship etc. it felt more adventurous and somewhat charming. I was only five when I first watched The Phantom Menace on VHS, and I loved it in general. Hell, I even liked Jar Jar. He really did work for kids, despite being a sore for adults.

Attack of the Clones on the other hand, at least for kid-me, was SO FREAKING BORING. POLITICS THIS, SAND THAT, SHOT-REVERSE-SHOT. As a kid, I didn't know what shot-reverse-shot was, but just on a subconscious level it was such a lazy way of framing a scene that I as a kid even recognized how awful it was.
I remember seeing this in theaters with my dad, and the only thing I can remember enjoying was the sequence when Obi-Wan is hunting the Bounty Hunter at the beginning. I literally forgot everything else until I saw it on DVD.

As I've grown older, I've grown to like each film less and less, but The Phantom Menace holds a special place in my heart.

FUCK Attack of the Clones.
 
Thug Waffle said:
you're way off. ANH and ESB are two of the very greatest motion pictures of all time. you realize how much the industry AND people's perception of it changed because of those films, right?
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I am well aware of how the industry reacted to the movies. That was part of my point as to why Star wars is what it is today(I even acknowledge it in the post you quoted). It certainly isn't the dialogue and the acting.

In my opinion, if the Prequel trilogy releases first and we would be having this argument about 4, 5 and 6. But thats just me.
 
I remember trying to track down the Target version of the Episode II score because it had the Droid Factory cue as a bonus track. It was the only way to get it.

Fucking GREAT track. It's straight up Grandiose Looney Tunes shit. I love it.

"On the Conveyor Belt"

Lucas was SO PROUD of adding this sequence at the last minute in post. It's a silly, doofy sequence, but Williams scored it like it was actually ACHIEVING what Lucas was trying for. It almost made the whole thing work.
 
Mariolee said:
Attack of the Clones on the other hand, at least for kid-me, was SO FREAKING BORING. POLITICS THIS, SAND THAT, SHOT-REVERSE-SHOT. As a kid, I didn't know what shot-reverse-shot was, but just on a subconscious level it was such a lazy way of framing a scene that I as a kid even recognized how awful it was.
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See, I thought it had this great atmosphere about it, like a storm looming on the horizon... I appreciated that it wasn't like super entertaining, just ironically sweet there for a little while, building up to the Tusken camp attack, and intercutting with Obi-Wan learning about all this shit. I really loved the mystery angle and how obnoxious and stupidly sweet the love scenes were because it was leading to some serious bullshit. I found it to be more contemplative than Phantom Menace.

Yes I know there's a slew of reasons to dislike it and I sympathize, but the way I saw it was actually pretty cool. I wish it was written and acted better, but I dug it.

BobbyRoberts said:
I remember trying to track down the Target version of the Episode II score because it had the Droid Factory cue as a bonus track. It was the only way to get it
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Yes that's fucking awesome. Another favorite of mine is the unused music in "The Arena" track that was later used in Episode III.
 
If they had rewrote and/or reshot AotC's love scenes, they would have had a genuinely good love story going. I thought their scenes in RotS were far better, especially the last one.
 
Forsaken82 said:
I am well aware of how the industry reacted to the movies. That was part of my point as to why Star wars is what it is today(I even acknowledge it in the post you quoted). It certainly isn't the dialogue and the acting.

In my opinion, if the Prequel trilogy releases first and we would be having this argument about 4, 5 and 6. But thats just me.
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The dialogue in the film is quotable like a motherfucker.
 
maharg said:
No movie with as much Jar Jar as TPM is better than any other film. Ever.
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If you hated Jar Jar in the first, in AoTC he's like in the galactic senate and shit, giving a speech which leads to Palpatine gaining the power to use the clones that Sifo-Dyas ordered.

"Who's Sifo-Dyas?" This movie is fucked, that's who Sifo-Dyas is. Attack of the Clones is the worst.

Besides, Jar Jar's heartfelt recollection of crashing the heyblibber in TPM was very moving.
 
You say Boom-de-gasser, den crashen de bosses heyblibber, then banished!

Also, just to clarify: Are people arguing that had the Prequels, containing the same story, essayed in essentially the exact same way (with period appropriate effects) been released in 1977, 1980, and 1983, the Star Wars phenomenon would have played out EXACTLY the same way?

Because I don't think that would be the case at all. I think it would have actually gone down the way Fox execs thought it would go down: A mildly expensive children's movie that would have grossed 20 mil tops and become a decent catalog title in the future for nostalgic adults and stoners.
 
BobbyRoberts said:
Also, just to clarify: Are people arguing that had the Prequels, containing the same story, essayed in essentially the exact same way (with period appropriate effects) been released in 1977, 1980, and 1983, the Star Wars phenomenon would have played out EXACTLY the same way?
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It's impossible to say. The times are important though. I do think if the originals had come out in place of the prequels, it would have been different.
 
The times are VERY much important. I think Lucas himself even admits the stark black/white goodguy/badguy dynamic played REALLY well precisely because it was 1977 and audiences had had quite enough of morally gray heroes in their cinema at that point.

The timing to get a throwback adventure movie full of cornpone and earnestness, done with the best special effects ever seen was VERY serendipitous.

For that very reason, I don't think Phantom Menace would have landed like Star Wars did, because Phantom Menace is absolutely about people being obtuse and inscrutable and there's a morally weird vibe to almost everything. The themes aren't clear in the way Star Wars' themes are. It wouldn't have resonated.
 
Yeah I don't think the prequels would have flew as well as the originals had they swapped places. The originals were fantastic but they were also released at the right time.
 
Although - shit - I'm sorta surprised there aren't a crew of enterprising Star Wars fans who haven't already re-written Phantom Menace to fit into the 70s and made a fan-film of it.

I mean - Jar Jar as a dude in a suit. Pod-Racing shot like Bullitt. Watto as a grimy dude in a shitty hat and a bad suit.

A 70s-style exercise in retelling a Prequel story is something I'd absolutely check out just for the sheer curiosity of it.
 
brandonh83 said:
You better believe it.
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all you'd establish is that people are biased toward the OT (which doesn't even preclude all people from speaking about it objectively).

it's a silly proposition to begin with. you're assuming two pairs of actors would deliver lines exactly the same way. not only that, but they have different voices... they're fundamentally different at that base level. what are you even doing? most people would prefer the OT cast anyway, even if you did somehow get these actors to perfectly imitate the other pair's delivery.

Forsaken82 said:
I am well aware of how the industry reacted to the movies. That was part of my point as to why Star wars is what it is today(I even acknowledge it in the post you quoted). It certainly isn't the dialogue and the acting.

In my opinion, if the Prequel trilogy releases first and we would be having this argument about 4, 5 and 6. But thats just me.
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all you said was that it was a unique experience for the 70's. that's true, but that speaks more toward the audience's reaction in its phrasing. i'm talking about its effects on how films are bought, sold, and marketed and its effects on how people within the industry developed their projects.

star wars was designed to be a prototypical hero journey, so the prequels wouldn't have had the familiar archetypes and thematic resonance that made it such a universal hit. they'd be much darker and likely wouldn't have appealed to children on the same level as the OT. lucas has said the OT is about Vader, not Luke, which is somewhat true when you consider the prequels, but he painstakingly researched archetypal stories and recurring characters to tell a very specific story. i'm not sure if you were going to mention that quote of his, but i'm telling you just in case.

dialogue's not that bad. in some spots, sure, but on the whole it suits its purpose well. mostly pretty straightforward and simple. movie made for kids, etc., etc. one of the OT's greatest strengths is actually its characters. people have connected with the OT roster and that's primarily due to the actors' performances. according to you, it certainly isn't the witty dialogue. in order for those characters to achieve the immense cultural relevance they've acquired, they'd have to have done something right as far as their profession was concerned.
 
Sharlto Copley will play the new Jar Jar type character. You know there will be one.
 
mattiewheels said:
Sharlto Copley will play the new Jar Jar type character. You know there will be one.
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I don't think Michael Arndt could write one, and JJ Abrams sure as hell wouldn't let one in without serious rewriting.

I still get the sense (even with the greenlighting of Star Wars: Rebels as a TV series) that Lucasfilm at Disney would rather move forward as if the Prequels were something better left in the past, not something to actively mine for inspiration.
 
whooops, nvm
Obviously time to sleep.
 
shira said:
Oh god, I forgot it's Disney. They are going to need kids toys aren't they.

Some sort of girl doll type and dudebro "truck" ship
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Ugh.

IT's Star Wars. They don't NEED to manufacture a "toy-friendly" character.

This is a series that made "Bumface" a desired children's toy.

Bob Iger isn't peeking over Arndt's shoulder like "Give me toys."
 
Is it bad that I'm actually interested in Zac Efron being in the next movie now?

BobbyRoberts said:
I dunno.

Until Dark Knight Returns, I don't know if there was blockbuster death scene as unintentionally funny as Pernilla August's in Attack of the Clones.

Although I guess both of them pale in comparison to Matrix Revolution.
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My brother and I make fun of this all the time.
 
Star Wars: Episode VII’ will go back to basics according to producer and Lucasfilm boss Kathleen Kennedy.

In front of a packed crowd at the Star Wars Celebration Europe convention in Essen, Germany – where she also confirmed that composer John Williams will return - she discussed the importance to mixing CGI with practical filmmaking.

“The conversation we’re having all the time now about ‘Episode VII’ is how much CGI. We’re looking at what the early ‘Star Wars’ films did; they used real locations with special effects. So [for ‘Episode VII’] we’re going to find some very cool locations, were going to end up using every single tool in the toolbox.

Asked to elaborate by host Warwick Davis, Kennedy said she was inspired by the fan costumes at the convention.

“I was amazed yesterday and looking at what the fans are doing. Using model makers, using real droids, taking advantage of the artwork that you can touch and feel, we want to do that in combination with CG effects.”
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http://uk.movies.yahoo.com/star-wars-7-will-have-less-cgi--more-real-effects-104549024.html
 
I guess this trilogy might be one of the last things Williams works on, since he'll be about 90 when IX releases...that's pretty cool how that works out.
 
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