Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
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Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
But rape is something that has been depicted in film and literature countless times across history. And games centered around murder have existed for years, and society still seems to still be disgusted and shocked at the concept of real murder. What you're using is the same logic people use when they try to claim that Video Games make its players inclined to commit murder.
Its perfectly understandable to be put off by depictions of rape, but I don't like the idea that developers shouldn't be allowed include such things in their work out of fear that it will desensitized or mess up society.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Literally the only people saying that this game shouldn't exist are the people defending it against the idea that it should be censored or not exist.
Mr.Monitor
Member
After reading that article, it seems like the scene had the desired effect. Good. Part of Hotline Miami is about challenging the player's emotions and making them feel uncomfortable about what's going on. It's part of the reason I love it so much. It's intentionally abrasive and "tasteless" and that's exactly how it should be. This isn't supposed to be a feel good experience, and not every game should be. I honestly find games that make me feel terrible and uncomfortable way more interesting than those that shelter and coddle me.
Edit: Also, the thread's title and the article is a little spoilery. I'd change it. The title, not the article. Yeah, I know it's just the tutorial level but I would've preferred going in without knowing about this.
Edit: Also, the thread's title and the article is a little spoilery. I'd change it. The title, not the article. Yeah, I know it's just the tutorial level but I would've preferred going in without knowing about this.
The choice is to stop playing the game.
I'd also say that sexualized violence is different from nonsexualized violence. It's funny how so many posters here try to pretend they're the same thing. I'm not saying one is worse than the other, but one is going to be a very prevalent part of most women's lives while chances are not so much for men. I honestly doubt any particular insight can be brought about from a male developer that I already don't know about rape, thanks. The insight really seems to come off as (at least, as a female player): "Hey, remember, you're a girl and this is something that happens to you not only in video games but real life and while the guys get to be uncomfortable about something that they usually only worry about in the abstract, you get to have fun being reminded how powerless your gender actually is!"
Exactly. This isn't about identifying with your character and choosing to be a good guy.
That's kinda the point. After you had some fun murder with the controls, the game pulls the rug out from under you by showing the next murder as not so fun. It intentionally contrasts the two so that have to reexamine your fun times with murder in the same context as the more brutal scenes.
It's not about whether or not you had a choice. The game is forcing you to reevaluate your previous actions. If it didn't surprise you, you wouldn't be in that uncomfortable situation the game is supposed to put you in.
Which I personally think is incredibly stupid but okay.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
You're ignoring the inherent differences of the mediums you're trying to propose equivalence between.
People who are saying that games should be held to the same standards as books and movies are failing to realize that games are completely different experiences from books and movies.
In books and movies you're an observer. In games you're a player.
So obviously that change in audience perspective needs to be taken into account when portraying any serious issues. Witnessing a character in a movie rape someone will illicit completely different emotions than having(forcing) the player character participate in it. and without the proper tact you risk the chance of completely pulling the player out of the experience, which is what happened to the author in the article.
Hotline: Miami implicates the player in the violence through its subversive, hallucinatory elements, but it doesn't necessarily point the finger in an accusatory fashion. It's satirical and rakes non-thoughtful, violent games over the coals, but it's not overbearingly didactic.
It's far more interested in laying some questions out there and getting the player to think about the link in games between narrative and game mechanics. What exactly are you doing, going through these levels? Why are you brutalizing these people? Because you were told to do so by bizarre, mysterious figures who speak in riddles? Who are these figures, and what do they really want?
Or is all of that irrelevant to you, and you play it simply because you enjoy the adrenaline rush brought on by excellent, responsive game mechanics, fast-paced feel, and the energetic soundtrack? The game doesn't care so much about your answers, just the questions; and similar questions can be applied to all sorts of games with a narrative bent.
Averting spoilers, the game later on goes to some degree in offering more context to these questions through both narrative and gameplay.
I feel with the coming generation we are going to see a lot more of these discussions. People will shout from the rooftops about how genius an inclusion like this scene is and others will shout about how offended and disgusting it is. That is what happens when material that questions the medium is in front of us and it's beneficial for any art form.
I rather see more of these discussions and debates than talking about how good the graphics are.
I rather see more of these discussions and debates than talking about how good the graphics are.
Stupider than going through with something you're uncomfortable with, just because someone told you to?
I disagree with this. I didn't feel connected to the character from the first game, in fact the game felt designed to be near impossible to either empathize or understand the motivations of the characters. I had moments not unlike what she described playing the first, like pouring boiling water on an enemies face, were it shocked me out of the game for a moment and made me wonder what the hell I was doing. It's the moments like those that take you out of just doing violent actions for a high score to good background music and make you realize that what you're doing is kind of fucked up that make the game a unique experience.
DexterPepper
Member
Something you paid money for? Okay
Which murder is the not fun one? When you are forced to kill the bum and vomit by your car?
And doesn't SpecOps have at least the illusion of choice? That's all I'm saying HM could have benefited from. That's it. When the game is asking me "why do you like hurting people?" there's really only one answer that came to mind.
I think its quite ingenius, do we continue being awful because we bought the game or do we overlook the loss in favor of choosing the 'right path', its not a simple matter to do the right thing, pressing or not pressing a button being the difference between good or bad has no impact on you at all, giving up a game to 'not be a bad person' however does impact you, while many wont see that, its in keeping with the games intent on having the player reflect.
so the question becomes, do you continue to murder or do you make a sacrifice (stop playing a game you paid for) to stand up for something you believe in?
Callo Merlose
Banned
It's a scene of a scene in a videogame. I understand what the producers are trying to do. If players take the killings lightly, they should also take the raping lightly. Wait, what? Yup.
GameGuru59
Banned
It was a response to the general opinion that rape shouldn't be in games. My opinion is that anything can be in games in any context. It doesn't mean you or I don't have to like it (and we're free to criticize it) but I think calls for this "to be in the right context" are silly. In Hotline, you're a mass murderer (it IS in the right context, for one thing) if the character raped every female character in the game I don't think I'd be uncomfortable with it. The game is about violence and dominance over others (as is rape). When I played through Hotline 1 I'd often yell "gotcha bitch!" or other expletives when I killed enemies- though after awhile it became formulaic, like I didn't feel anything (...like a psychopath). The game was sort of a release for pent up anger. If the game gave you the ability to rape characters, it honestly probably would've made the game better. Its a violent game. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Artists should not curtail their art based on how they think people will respond to it. Art (for me at least) is the expression of MY ideas, wants, and needs. Fuck what others think about it. If I'm worried about what they think, its has ceased to be art from my perspective. Then it becomes design. This is complicated though, because there is art within design, and design within art. But on the whole, I consider most games (especially indie games like Hotline) to be art first and foremost.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Well in this case it's not so much because the game told me to as it is that I paid money for this fucking game. lol
You pay for the experience.
Messofanego
Banned
Callo Merlose
Banned
It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what.
Stephen Fry
Stephen Fry
And people are fully in their right to tell artists that their ideas, wants, and needs are complete shit. If they don't care, that's totally fine. No one is asking them to stop making these things. But I find it funny that people think artists are some holy entity that can't have their creations criticized or discussed negatively.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
But the poster I was responding to was expressing concern over people becoming desensitized if these depictions were allowed. There's a huge difference between pressing some button prompts in a game that you're aware isn't actually happening and actually preforming an action in real life. I just have a hard time believing that this tutorial is somehow going to make a significant amount of people that play it be "cool" with committing rape against a live person in real life.
Flachmatuch
Member
This is a video game, ie. a piece of entertainment. It is the same as all the other stuff on this "market" and thus it reflects the decadence and general lack of perspective of all postmodern entertainment that wants to be considered "art" just by definition. It's not the worst of them, of course, and it even has a chance to be something worthwhile, which a lot of the other stuff does not, but as far as I can see, it's not really much better than the rest either, despite being a good game in itself. Just like Spec Ops and other stuff cannot cross a certain line and overcome a certain limitation which come from being commercial works foremost and pieces of personal self-expression and conscious critical reflections of history and culture only way, way after that. (Hence the dumb postmodern devolution into self-reflection, self-referentiality, narrative tricks, fourth wall crap and masturbation about "player agency" and so on - as once you have nothing to say about the external world as it is, preferably from a new and original point of view, in the name of a certain group of people you can identify with, you're stuck with staring into the mirror and entertaining yourself by making funny faces. Which is all that most (post)modern "art", including most video games, are about. Don't for a moment believe that this rape scene has anything to do with sexual discrimination - it's all about the narcissism of the creators trying to be edgy and cool and "artists". Which is of course not even a little worse than what the overwhelming majority of Academy Award winning movies and award winning TV series do.)
This video game is an organic part of current "culture", whatever that may be. The rape scene and its general ultra-violence is part of a general trend of ultra-violence which already exists in this culture. People are right when they say video games should not be judged harsher than other media in this respect (except of course when it can be shown scientifically that they are much more effective at manipulation of consciousness than other media, which frankly I don't really believe personally - although I may be wrong of course). But while it may not be about direct shock value, it's definitely also not about social sexual discrimination - at the very best, it uses it to further the authors' ego, nothing else.
Being desensitised does not mean that you will commit these crimes too - it just means that your value system becomes skewed slightly towards their acceptance. You consider them more natural and so on. This may or may not have a measurable social level effect - although I personally think it does - but the problem is certainly not about becoming a killer after playing the game. Imo this approach does a disservice to the entire discussion, as it clearly cannot be taken seriously to any degree. On the other hand, if you can take Chris Hedges, listen to him talk about how the American porn industry became way more violent, how he met porn actresses that seem to behave as if they had PTSD and so on. This is a connecting issue, imo - there does seem to be a general increase of violence and oppression in some aspects of culture. While Hotline Miami may not directly influence this, it does in fact benefit from it.
This video game is an organic part of current "culture", whatever that may be. The rape scene and its general ultra-violence is part of a general trend of ultra-violence which already exists in this culture. People are right when they say video games should not be judged harsher than other media in this respect (except of course when it can be shown scientifically that they are much more effective at manipulation of consciousness than other media, which frankly I don't really believe personally - although I may be wrong of course). But while it may not be about direct shock value, it's definitely also not about social sexual discrimination - at the very best, it uses it to further the authors' ego, nothing else.
Being desensitised does not mean that you will commit these crimes too - it just means that your value system becomes skewed slightly towards their acceptance. You consider them more natural and so on. This may or may not have a measurable social level effect - although I personally think it does - but the problem is certainly not about becoming a killer after playing the game. Imo this approach does a disservice to the entire discussion, as it clearly cannot be taken seriously to any degree. On the other hand, if you can take Chris Hedges, listen to him talk about how the American porn industry became way more violent, how he met porn actresses that seem to behave as if they had PTSD and so on. This is a connecting issue, imo - there does seem to be a general increase of violence and oppression in some aspects of culture. While Hotline Miami may not directly influence this, it does in fact benefit from it.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I don't buy that.
That's not a decision about morality it's a value proposition. It's no different than thinking about whether or not to trudge through a bad game because you paid for it.
Which doesn't exist if I turn off the game.
When the gameplay stops. The gameplay of Hotline Miami is fast-paced and fun, divorcing the murderous content from its normal context; when you suddenly aren't playing the game anymore, it stops being fun and the murder becomes uncomfortable.
I definitely think the rape scene here is meant to make you uncomfortable, especially with the vague prompt. When you answer the prompt and lose control, you realize your character is doing something awful and the happy times are over. Then it turns out to all be a movie, but instead of being cathartic you just feel drained because "Oh my God I seriously would have done that", which can be a worse feeling than actually doing it. Hotline Miami is a game that constantly questions our perspective, and it looks like the second game will do that too.
And that's fine, but we're also free to call your art shit not good enough for the flies. We're also free to tell other people we think your art is shit, and to not buy your game because we think your art is shit.
Artistic expression is free, but you don't get a guaranteed pat on the back or pay check for it.
These posts help respond to you: here here
But I would also add that books, TVs and film ARE rightly criticised when they portray rape flippantly.
The reason I keep using the word 'flippant' is because I think that's important. It may be possible to depict the brutality of rape in a video game in a responsible way that is respectful to the survivors of rape - this HM2 scene doesn't seem to reach that standard.
I think it's also worth pointing out that various women have said that the scene makes them uncomfortable and have explained why. I think that we all need to take that seriously and not dismiss it.
Lord British
Member
"Shut up; I am famous. I have a platform, and thousands of unthinking hounds to unleash who will tell you that I am right. You do not; ergo I win."
Stephen Fry (paraphrased)
Honestly, I think that quote is awful; a conversation-stopper.
No. It's free publicity for them.
GameGuru59
Banned
Yes? From the perspective of white men, yes. Encouraging more diversity in the industry is critical to obtaining more varied expressions of art. And I don't think white men or any other group should be forced to consider what others may think of expression from their perspective. Individuals should feel free within this industry to express their visions as they see fit.
Think about it the other way around: What if white men had come to Spike Lee when he was directing Malcolm X and told him you need to do x, y, and z to make this movie better? That'd be ridiculous. Cara and Ana (though they are free to do so) are attempting to force men to consider their perspective when its actually themselves (as women) who are best able to understand their own perspective. Thus, they shouldn't spend time telling men what to feel, but rather encouraging more women to develop games.
Indeed.
Never said that artists can't be criticized. I'm just saying that the amount of criticism for this instance is silly, especially in the context. Everyone is free to express their opinions, and I'm free to criticize their opinions as much ado about nothing.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think the poster you were responding to was suggesting that this isolated incident would lead to that.
but talking about the hypothetical implications of rape being a widespread interactive experience within the medium, like killing.
my response to your post was under the assumption that you understood that
I think there are problems with that idea in general myself,(it ignores the reasons why killing is such a common mechanic, and incidents where there's been backlash at it going to far) but I don't think the idea that "nah it's just games" is one of them
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
I'm just reading through this thread and want to offer my own two cents. I could be wrong for feeling this way but here me out.
I think to begin, we must establish the artistic difference between "exploring the concept of rape" and "depicting rape". What's important with this comparison is that you can explore the concept of rape without actually depicting the action. Rape is one of the most violent crimes that a person can be the victim of, male or female. The victim is violated horribly, and is often left with permanent mental scars that can be reduced over time if they're lucky or receive the proper counseling and support from friends and family, but are often never completely forgotten. Very similar to PTSD, certain things can trigger a reaction and can drive a person insane. There's a reason rape is such a sensitive topic.
Now that we have that out of the way, let's take a look at rape and the videogame. Videogames have an inherent limitation when it comes to exploring the concept of rape via depicting the action. This limitation comes from the form of videogames being interactive. The problem here is that if one choses to place the player in the position of either being the rapist or the potential rape victim, there are only two really viable outcomes, one just sick and the other potentially harmful to the player. As the rapist, I don't see how this action could be depicted as anything other than power fantasy or glorification, which is really just awful all around and is not an idea that should be promoted in any media. As the rape victim, at best the audience feels horrible for the victim and reflects. But it's also equally possible that a former rape victim could have a relapse and suffer from being put in a situation where they are, in effect, reliving that horrible event they suffered through. This is not a desirable situation for anyone involved, and that's why videogames are handicapped when exploring the concept if they chose to do so through depicting the act, or even implying it after a fashion.
Violence in videogames, even though I find much of it to be unnecessary and not a positive part of the gaming medium today, is a little less problematic if given the proper context. Throughout history there have been times where taking the life of another (or more than one person) can be deemed as justifiable. If one kills in self defense, or to defend those they love, perhaps their country or even the whole world from outside invaders who wish you and yours harm, slaughtering the enemy seems justifiable in this context. But there's never in any circumstance where rape is justifiable, no matter what certain people who throw out terrible excuses like "She was asking for it," and it's multiple disgusting variations would like us to believe. So to including anything in a videogame that directly depicts the act of rape, where the character is either the rapist or the rape victim, is a lot harder to justify because in most cases there isn't one.
Again, one can explore the concept of rape and it's consequences without actually depicting the act itself, and in my opinion games are more than any other form of art extremely handicapped in exploration via depiction. I still believe the concept can and probably should be explored in a mature and thoughtful manner, but not in an interactive manner.
Again, that's just my two cents and anyone can be free to disagree with me. Perhaps it's just never been presented the right way or whatever, I honestly couldn't tell you. The above is just my own thoughts on the matter for what it's worth.
I think to begin, we must establish the artistic difference between "exploring the concept of rape" and "depicting rape". What's important with this comparison is that you can explore the concept of rape without actually depicting the action. Rape is one of the most violent crimes that a person can be the victim of, male or female. The victim is violated horribly, and is often left with permanent mental scars that can be reduced over time if they're lucky or receive the proper counseling and support from friends and family, but are often never completely forgotten. Very similar to PTSD, certain things can trigger a reaction and can drive a person insane. There's a reason rape is such a sensitive topic.
Now that we have that out of the way, let's take a look at rape and the videogame. Videogames have an inherent limitation when it comes to exploring the concept of rape via depicting the action. This limitation comes from the form of videogames being interactive. The problem here is that if one choses to place the player in the position of either being the rapist or the potential rape victim, there are only two really viable outcomes, one just sick and the other potentially harmful to the player. As the rapist, I don't see how this action could be depicted as anything other than power fantasy or glorification, which is really just awful all around and is not an idea that should be promoted in any media. As the rape victim, at best the audience feels horrible for the victim and reflects. But it's also equally possible that a former rape victim could have a relapse and suffer from being put in a situation where they are, in effect, reliving that horrible event they suffered through. This is not a desirable situation for anyone involved, and that's why videogames are handicapped when exploring the concept if they chose to do so through depicting the act, or even implying it after a fashion.
Violence in videogames, even though I find much of it to be unnecessary and not a positive part of the gaming medium today, is a little less problematic if given the proper context. Throughout history there have been times where taking the life of another (or more than one person) can be deemed as justifiable. If one kills in self defense, or to defend those they love, perhaps their country or even the whole world from outside invaders who wish you and yours harm, slaughtering the enemy seems justifiable in this context. But there's never in any circumstance where rape is justifiable, no matter what certain people who throw out terrible excuses like "She was asking for it," and it's multiple disgusting variations would like us to believe. So to including anything in a videogame that directly depicts the act of rape, where the character is either the rapist or the rape victim, is a lot harder to justify because in most cases there isn't one.
Again, one can explore the concept of rape and it's consequences without actually depicting the act itself, and in my opinion games are more than any other form of art extremely handicapped in exploration via depiction. I still believe the concept can and probably should be explored in a mature and thoughtful manner, but not in an interactive manner.
Again, that's just my two cents and anyone can be free to disagree with me. Perhaps it's just never been presented the right way or whatever, I honestly couldn't tell you. The above is just my own thoughts on the matter for what it's worth.
You misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting that HM2 will make people more likely to commit rape. However, it may still have implications for the seriousness with which people perceive rape.
Edit: what Retro_ said.
No, what Cara and Anna are doing are saying: "You aren't doing anything half as interesting as you think you are by including rape in your game, and it's only alienating people who otherwise want to play your game. If you don't care, fine, but for those who didn't think this was an issue before, maybe they want to be aware of how people would react."
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
So you're saying there's no point in trying to educate someone or give them advice that might make their creation/vision/whatever better, or allow them to express their vision more eloquently?
And you can drop the black/white nonsense. As a black man, it's getting annoying. Yes, the most effective way is to increase minority presence in the industry, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't even try to influence and educate those currently in the industry making content.
You said it much more eloquently than I did. My biggest fear with the sequel is that this rape scene is not contextualized fully enough for it to be necessary. Commenting on violence in the first game made sense to me, since the industry is struggling with the idea of glorifying blood lust, but the industry doesn't necessarily have a problem with rape, that I know of, so it seems odd for the sequel to go into that territory. If there is no context, aside from a movie, then it seems inappropriate.
Good filmmakers, as people are pointing out, contextualize their grisly scenes. They have a purpose. I only hope Hotline Miami 2 does as well.
Spot on. Thing is, they aren't wrong for expressing that, and it's actually true (that they are going to alienate potential players). My argument would be though that, not all art needs to be inclusive to everyone. There are going to be some stories told, characters created, that don't appeal to everyone. I don't think ultimately, art always need to appeal to everyone.
No, it definitely does not, but when you're a huge fan of a medium like video games that already has most of its games telling you that you don't belong, it's discouraging to see even one more series that you have previously enjoyed tell you the same thing. And I think it's fair for female (or any other players) to voice their disappointment at not being able to have fun with everyone else because of something like this.
Dubbing such criticism an effort to curtail an artist's expression is more or less saying that.
For the record, I actually think it's a good thing that we are having these broader discussions. I think the industry would be far better off if they made more diverse games that were more inclusive to everyone. There is a difference between being inclusive, and having a "wide appeal", the two aren't the same thing (the latter is often what people don't like, because these companies water stuff down to achieve it).
So I agree in a larger sense, it's depressing that so many games are so alienating. I was just saying on a specific individual level, if you are an artist that has a story to tell, not everything you make is going to appeal to everyone or be inclusive. And I don't think people are wrong for voicing their opinions about it. There was nothing wrong with this article whatsoever. They made fair points.
eot
Banned
Killing those people in the game doesn't mean anything because in the game there's no choice not to. It's not your choice, the game isn't tricking you into thinking they're military targets, it's not tricking you into killing them, it's forcing you to kill them. It's the developers' choice not yours.
I bet the extreme violence already scared off many people who otherwise might have enjoyed the game.
poopninjamvc3mk
I sucked six dicks to get this tag.
I find it funny that rape is shown left and right in TV shows, Movies, and literature but soon as it's in a game, people say this is going too damn far. I don't understand anymore. Hell even Tomb Raider got flac just because you were escaping a would be rapist in a scene. Makes no sense.
I think it crosses a line, but then I thought the original crossed the line with its murder simulation without clear incentive. Which may have been the point.
To say you loved the original and now feel betrayed because it happened to a woman instead of the hundreds of men before her does appear quite hypocritical.
But then I'm of the opinion that murder is much worse than rape, and the fact that nobody bats an eye about the former is indicative of our skewed culture, probably a remnant of times when honor killings were justified.
To say you loved the original and now feel betrayed because it happened to a woman instead of the hundreds of men before her does appear quite hypocritical.
But then I'm of the opinion that murder is much worse than rape, and the fact that nobody bats an eye about the former is indicative of our skewed culture, probably a remnant of times when honor killings were justified.
Except movies, tv shows, and literature do get a lot of criticism for such things. But this is a video game forum so that's what's highlighted.
No it isn't. I read and watch a lot of film and TV - it's rare that a rape is portrayed. Moreover, on the rare occasions that rape does appear in media, it's generally conveyed with more gravitas than the scene in HM2.
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