This deserves to be on top of a new page, excellent arguments.
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
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njean777
Member
That is not what I was arguing, I was just simply stating that fatalities in MK can be reproduced in real life. Nothing more, nothing less.
Until you go and kill an entire police station, where the commissioner warns his coworkers about the lunatic after them.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
...and yet you remain stubbornly unaware of the controversies that surround them. Odd, I would've assumed that was what drew you to them in the first place.
Spehornoob
Member
I agree with your first point, but I don't agree with the second. And I don't think this is a case of "Faux outrage" from the author of this article. I think her point was well articulated, but I absolutely think that outrage for the sake of outrage is a thing and should be confronted when something is perceived to be that way.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Eh, the first game also had pretty questionable gender roles (girlfriend getting killed after giving jacket a appearance of normality and the boss battle were the only female enemy gets stripped before killed) that seems in line with the commentary of video game violence.
At least that I was pointing out. The first game was also questioning the player actions.
Then it was an inane point that was of no relevance to anything being discussed.
I am picking extreme examples, mostly because I couldn't give a shit about 99% of the crap that shat these days by mainstream films.
I believe Darren Aronsfsky also commented in one of his commentaries he really doesn't care about what the "audience" thinks of his work. David Lynch is another example.
I'm not drawn by controversy, bro.
I've never seen a basis for defining this beyond "I can't understand why the author finds this offensive; therefore, his/her offense must be faked."
freenudemacusers
Member
Pretty much. A discussion (not the use of the word discussion) about whether or not gaming is 'ready' for this kind of content would be nice, drive by TL,DR posts flailing at imaginary windmills are not.
njean777
Member
pretty much, I just do not like when people think that violence isn't as important as rape. Both are important for sure, but to dismiss one and rant on about the other just seems disingenuous to me.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
The most outrage in this thread by far is aimed at the writer for daring to comment on it.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Spehornoob
Member
Not at all. Look at the fat acceptance movement or things like people thinking that saying the royal baby was a boy was offensive because he hadn't personally picked a gender to identify with. Outrage for the sake of outrage, for the sake of feeling superior, is absolutely a thing and I think we deal with a lot of it on the internet, really. And, just because offense isn't faked, doesn't mean the reasons for being offended don't merit criticism.
But I don't think this is a case from that, at least not from the author of this article.
MisterSamMan
Member
I was just about to mention this. That scene in Pulp Fiction is very unsettling so on some level I understand why the Hotline Miami scene would be unsettling to some, but it fits well with the Hotline Miami's theme. Hotline Miami is built around making you feel uncomfortable. Nearing the end of original, I felt really uncomfortable killing people because the game managed to weave in story elements that changed my perspective on the game.
I was no longer playing some mindless action game. I was controlling a psychopathic killer, who had to keep killing. It was uncomfortable and that's what Hotline Miami brings.
FrontalMonk
Banned
I almost spit soda all over my monitor at work. Thank you.
I think you mean "outrage". Nobody's allowed to actually feel anything about anything ever.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
But you are "in the know" about the "worst of the worst" films and shockumentries, aren't you? From your previous posts I would suggest you could be being a little disingenuous here...
Absolutely to the latter sentence, but while I sort of agree with you on the former (I went to a liberal arts college), I tend to think that one is generally better off assuming good faith from their rhetorical opponents.
freenudemacusers
Member
eh, our disagreement is pretty nitpicky in the grand scheme of the discussion, I would think we align more than we do not. Like, Irreversible is a great movie. And not because of pushing the boundaries with the rape scene, but what the rape scene (and the 'other' scene) represents in the film.
If you want to talk about the trivialisation of violence in COD and similar military shooters in another thread then I'm there. But comparisons to MK are different because MK isn't attempting to replicate events that occur in real life.
I'm not accusing you of this but pointing out 'hypocrisy' can be used as a silencing technique i.e. "you didn't complain about x, so you're not allowed to complain about y".
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
That's intersting. CoD4's opening level made me really uncomfortable the first time I played it. The "Good Guys" were depicted as brutally violent.
SuperAndroid17
Member
I've never heard about this game and this is what it looks like to me.
Yeah I'm not seeing the problem.
Coffee Dog
Banned
So what is the solution to this? Just not allow rape in art?
freenudemacusers
Member
Visually? I don't see a problem. Hotline Miami was, IMO, as much about the story as the gameplay.
i don't think that's what anyone is implying here...
Firstly, it's not about "allowing" as no-one has suggested that anything be banned or censored.
What I would suggest is that artists think responsibly about what they are representing and the effect it could have on people in the real world.
njean777
Member
Why can we not talk about both at the same time though?
Spehornoob
Member
Oh, totally. There just comes a time when one has to realize what he or she is dealing with, you know?
I also think it helps that, despite the fact that the content of this game made the author uncomfortable, the article seemed much more of an examination of why the author felt that way rather than an attack on the authors or audience of the game itself.
faceless007
Member
I want to point out: If, as many fans of the first game have argued, the intent of the game and this specific scene is to create a dissonance in the viewer and evoke a meta-commentary about whether the player should actually be enjoying the game and why he is continuing to play it, then the developers obviously can't hide behind a "I don't care about the audience" defense. If that's the intent, then they explicitly do care about the audience reaction, and are deliberately trying to shape it in specific ways (which, you know, most art tries to do). In that context, the writer's opinion that the developers failed to do that effectively is absolutely a relevant critique.
Coffee Dog
Banned
What do you mean by think reponsibly? What would you want them to do?
Because this thread is about the rape scene in HM2. I'm happy to talk about violence in games but it might be tangential to the focus of this thread.
I just like hardcore/obscure films. They aren't all "bad films", I sought them out either by word of mouth or doing research on similar films. Not by "teh controversy".
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I agree with that, I don't like pushing for the sake of it.
And I also seem to discuss about nitpicks with most of this thread (as I agree with many)
Road of Ease
Member
Am I? Maybe he thinks rape is an act of violence AS WELL as sexual, but it's not clear in the post.
Besides, jett's post is just one example. There are plenty of other posts that separate rape from violence in this very thread. My only intention is to point out that the argument about complaints coming from prude views on sex is, to put it mildly, very flawed.
eot
Banned
That entire police department had it coming to them, right? Or those people before you meet helmet guy? No, there are plenty of "murder simulators" and we as a people seem to be okay with that. Don't try to deny it.
Opinionatedfish
Member
I thought the first game deftly handled the mood of the film "Drive." It looks like part of this game is trying to collapse down the story of what happened in the first film through the distorted view of a camera lens. If the first game wants to evoke "Drive." Then it appears the sequel is looking to evoke "Irreversible," "A Serbian Story," and/or other kinds of pulp cinema.
Now, this reminds me of the "attempted rape" sequence in Tomb Raider that raised the ire of many people. This is a simulated rape,
and not an actual act of rape. In fact, it's intended to inject the idea that the hero from the first game had corrupt intentions and not noble ones. This is supposed to make you feel physically ill. The part in Hotline Miami
gave me a bit of a headache. The sequence after that,
was just uncomfortable. It fit the narrative of the story that was being told. If you are uncomfortable with this, may I suggest avoiding other media like "Game of Thrones," "Kill Bill," "Django Unchained," "I Spit On Your Grave," and countless other media that might make you uncomfortable too.
Personally, I want to see this sequence in the context of the full version of the game. I do think that there should be an option to skip that level. That should also give the person who skips it some kind of "Moral Reactionary" trophy/achievement.
Now, this reminds me of the "attempted rape" sequence in Tomb Raider that raised the ire of many people. This is a simulated rape,
similar to that one sequence in "Perfect Blue,"
where you escape the hospital
where you shoot up a police station,
Personally, I want to see this sequence in the context of the full version of the game. I do think that there should be an option to skip that level. That should also give the person who skips it some kind of "Moral Reactionary" trophy/achievement.
I feel as though that's a bit of an unfair question as I've never contemplated producing a video game, or any other piece of art, that depicts rape so I'm having to think off the top of my head.
I would think exactly WHY I wanted to portray rape and what I hoped it would achieve. If it was just for sensationalist shock value then I wouldn't do it. If it was because I wanted to say something meaningful about rape then that would mean ensuring that I was not flippant in how I treated rape in the game. The most important thing for me would be to ensure that whatever I produced was respectful to those people who have survived rape. That might mean talking to various organisations that help rape survivors.
Okay, so....
I haven't played it, so I can't give my thoughts. But that doesn't mean that the dev's "care" if someone likes it or not. That's like saying I'm making a song about dismembering children and pulling their teeth before they die. I want it to feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean I "care" if you like it or not.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
What's the big deal?
There is rape in paintings, books, television and movies. Why not video games?
Art is art is art.
As far as I'm concerned Soderstrom is pushing the medium forward. I feel like a lot of the people posting here are the same people that don't understand that Tyler, The Creator is satire.
There is rape in paintings, books, television and movies. Why not video games?
Art is art is art.
As far as I'm concerned Soderstrom is pushing the medium forward. I feel like a lot of the people posting here are the same people that don't understand that Tyler, The Creator is satire.
faceless007
Member
Why are you introducing the question of "like" into it? That's not what you originally said, you said the developers shouldn't care about what anybody else thinks. If the purported intent of the developers is accurate, then they obviously should, otherwise they're failing at their goal.
I don't buy that most artists truly don't care what anyone else thinks, because the entire reason they're doing it is to get a message across or evoke a feeling in the audience. If they're truly not trying to do that then they're just making masturbatory nonsense.
mr teaspoon
Member
We're just going to disagree about the point of those story bits. What I take away from Hotline Miami is that it's some bizarre violent 80's acid trip with puzzle pieces that ultimately don't add up.
Again, if I'm wrong, then color me unimpressed. Not to sound like a broken record, but if in 2013 game devs seriously think it it's deep to hold up a mirror and ask 'you're playing a game about killing people and you think it's fun, what kind of monster are you?', well.....it's been asked before. Many times.
freenudemacusers
Member
what outrage?
No need to apologize for wanting to be raped in lieu of killed, but just make sure that any future rapist-murderers you encounter know this so they can stop at the appropriate line.
This was clearly a fake rape scene in a game about an actor playing a psychopathic serial killer. In character he isn't supposed to be a nice or savory individual - he's a mentally unstable monster. I don't see how a rape scene is causing this much of a commotion. It helps cement the fact that the public sees him as an unstable monster which, in turn, makes it seem as though the four fans you play as are also psychopaths because they're aspiring to be like the character the actor is portraying. Rape, being characterized as a special kind of evil, just serves to further the whole notion/story/characterization that the character is a psycho and the fans are psychos for emulating him. Removing it could irreparably damage the narrative/characterization of the "Pig Butcher" and his fans as well as the meta-narrative that questions why fans would want a sequel identical to the original game.
tl;dr Please don't fuck with the art.
tl;dr Please don't fuck with the art.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
That first post, got damn.
Dead at "Finish her"
Dead at "Finish her"
I do not feel that it cross a line. We have rape scenes in movies, we have rape scenes in books. Why does a pseudo pixelized character raping a women is worst than a actress simulating a rape on TV on prime time?
The guy bash heads, kill people, and do pretty much the most horrible thing possible. How is it surprising that raping is one of them?
The guy bash heads, kill people, and do pretty much the most horrible thing possible. How is it surprising that raping is one of them?
I think it's pretty clear that Hotline Miami is not expecting its audience to ever have actually had to deal with rape in any real sense (any more than with the extreme violence) and that in itself is pretty telling about how people view rape in today's society.
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