SolarPowered
Member
Strong choice of words. That person is probably way too picky for their own good if you ask me.
Obviously
There is such a thing as going too low even for small IP.
Any of you want to play SG PC?
Fighting Games Weekly | Sept 16-22 | EVO does a 360 and walks away
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
There is such a thing as going too low even for small IP.
Any of you want to play SG PC?
Karsticles
Member
You're talking about like 99% of the Marvel community there!
I consider myself to have one character in Skullgirls: Painwheel. My other two characters are there for the assists.
ShinMaruku
Member
It probably does have too few characters but I think it's presentation also hurt it more than just the character roster size.
Nah Karst is right on the nose.
In a 3v3 game you don't need to just find 3 characters you like, you need to find 3 characters you like who can be played together on a team. A lot of people like Wolverine, Spider Man and Hulk but those 3 on the same team is shit despite all 3 being good characters in their own right.
Odds are most people just find 1 or 2 characters they like in a 15 character game and that number projected to 3 required characters would need 45+ characters not counting the need for synergies.
In a 3v3 game you don't need to just find 3 characters you like, you need to find 3 characters you like who can be played together on a team. A lot of people like Wolverine, Spider Man and Hulk but those 3 on the same team is shit despite all 3 being good characters in their own right.
Odds are most people just find 1 or 2 characters they like in a 15 character game and that number projected to 3 required characters would need 45+ characters not counting the need for synergies.
call_kotaku
Member
I'd argue that tag games need fewer characters because team synergies can provide a lot of variety. Marvel 2 had like half a dozen characters viable in competitive play, along with a couple teams built around very specific things, and it looks like marvel 3 is going in the same direction.
Large rosters are problematic, I suppose, but I can see why developers might just put in as many as they can because x character being in the game will make someone somewhere happy, without considering the 99.9% of the playerbase that will be indifferent or peeved by the decision.
Large rosters are problematic, I suppose, but I can see why developers might just put in as many as they can because x character being in the game will make someone somewhere happy, without considering the 99.9% of the playerbase that will be indifferent or peeved by the decision.
KingSunIsFree
Banned
A lot of you hold a lot of weight in evo as far a promotional tool. The only way KI will have a big impact at evo is if they make it the main event
ShinMaruku
Member
I think skullgirls would have done much better as a solo game than as it is now with it's roster. It really shows how ever people may feel about marvel it was really made well. It may have some bullshit characters but in the roster feel and just general play it's really well made.
KingSunIsFree
Banned
skullgirls is a bad example to use seeing that it flopped sales wise. The casuals are the ones that mainly buy these games and as we know casuals are attracted by the presentation of the game.
ShinMaruku
Member
Large rosters can be a issue when you are talking high level. But from bottom to mid I think Marvel did it well.
SolarPowered
Member
Maybe if you are playing MvC3. It's kinda rigid in the way it's built so you can easily end up with the problem of liking characters who can't OTG, don't have the best assists and need extra setup just to get their mediocre game going.
There are only two real versus style team games and I spend so much time playing a particular one that I forget just how much work you have to put into building a team that actually works smoothly. I kinda just want to pick a characters I like and have it work up to the low end of high level gameplay. That's enough for me.
Congrats on having those deep LZG contacts. You gotta give me your sources.
Lambda Pie
Banned
i defend Tekken 7 should be a return to old school: 12 initial characters + 12 unlocked by finishing the game with everyone + a boss = 25 characters. more than enough.
Karsticles
Member
You're making it sound like Skullgirls is that smooth. My poor Painwheel needs very particular assists, and doesn't have a lot of good options herself. :-(
The larger the roster the better, generally, but too much and it's just overwhelming to most. Your average gamer doesn't want to hit the lab with every character or suffer through 40 tutorials before they find someone they kind-of like.
For Marvel, I wouldn't even put a maximum number there for a roster size that will satisfy your average player. It's about the selections themselves. Same goes for team games without synergistic elements or games with the ratio system. Throw Spidey, Wolverine, etc. there and suddenly you have a bunch of characters/properties everyone likes and will tack on if they can't figure out who to choose. Though, I still find that the team set up is a pretty big barrier for casuals because it sets pretty large expectations for the player from the jump.
For Marvel, I wouldn't even put a maximum number there for a roster size that will satisfy your average player. It's about the selections themselves. Same goes for team games without synergistic elements or games with the ratio system. Throw Spidey, Wolverine, etc. there and suddenly you have a bunch of characters/properties everyone likes and will tack on if they can't figure out who to choose. Though, I still find that the team set up is a pretty big barrier for casuals because it sets pretty large expectations for the player from the jump.
ShinMaruku
Member
They won't do that. They cater too much to the old core to do that. And they have no faith that the transition will get a new core that is larger and just as engaged as their old core.
SolarPowered
Member
Doesn't sound like anyone wants to play. Guess I'll call it a night then.
I'd put in the work to show that PW can do better, but I'm sure there are at least half a dozen notable players out there who absolutely eclipse anything I could ever come up with. I don't see you playing so maybe you don't have access to these people. IRC should have quite a few strong Painwheel players and they're probably on everyday between 5PM EST and 10PM EST.
http://client00.chat.mibbit.com/?channel=#skullgirls&server=irc.mizuumi.net
Pin it to your browser if you must.
It's usually that smooth unless you are playing a real specialist character. Right now Fortune and Painwheel are the only two who fit that bill and Fortune is definitely the stronger one.
I'd put in the work to show that PW can do better, but I'm sure there are at least half a dozen notable players out there who absolutely eclipse anything I could ever come up with. I don't see you playing so maybe you don't have access to these people. IRC should have quite a few strong Painwheel players and they're probably on everyday between 5PM EST and 10PM EST.
http://client00.chat.mibbit.com/?channel=#skullgirls&server=irc.mizuumi.net
Pin it to your browser if you must.
Lambda Pie
Banned
Tekken fandom as been diminishing since Tekken 3, they could do the transition with the invaluable help of F2P (yay!!!).
release the bare bones game for free, with 12 characters, then give the option of grinding for the other characters and clothing items or just buy them outright.
there's alot of people of never touched a Tekken and tried Revolution. and i don't mind F2P as long as it stays away from P2W.
Karsticles
Member
Hmmm?! I never said Painwheel was bad. I love her and think she's great. I'm just talking about her flexibility as a teammate. It's rather on the low end. I've played great Painwheel players - both the guy who ran local events in Chicago and the guy who runs them here in Colorado Springs main Painwheel.
This is why Tekken is in a box. With each new Tekken that didn't expand, they lost some of the base. They have to do something now, or the series will fade.
As for Painwheel, I don't really get how to play her at all, then again I run Peacock/Cerebella, and that team you really need to know what your opponent likes to play to pick Bella's assist as she lacks a universal braindead assist. (Peacock assists also char dependent, unsure if to use gunblade, HP, or Boxcar George vs Fortunes)
SolarPowered
Member
Yeah, that is what I'm talking about. It just so happens that Fortune plays much nicer with others than the half zombie spike girl. Who'd have thunk it?
These are the growing pains of a versus game with such a small roster. It sucks that luck wasn't on our sides more than a year ago when DLC progress got halted because of a random lawsuit. We'd probably be at 11 or 12 characters by now. PW's odds will only improve with more characters.
Karsticles
Member
No doubt. I'm hoping Big Band works well with her so I can have a second character I enjoy playing.
It's important to identify why something flopped and separate it from what it actually did well.
Obviously the art style, character design, low character count and not being attached to a major publisher hurt the game but it did a lot of things well. Each character is very unique, fleshed out plus custom assists greatly increases the pool of team selection. The mechanics are generally solid too.
If you take some of those mechanics and put them into MVC4 people would get omega hyped (well except IPS). Not even just mechanics but simple stuff like mapping macros, tutorials, pausing, training options are done really well in the game.
I disagree. With Marvel specifically, I think people are happy to have a big selection and pick their favorites (made more fun by stuff like match-up specific quips or references).
Team building is also a pretty sweet entry point into thinking about the game strategically. I think understanding concepts like 'battery' and 'anchor' is easier than getting into stuff like guard breaks or option selects.
SolarPowered
Member
I'm keeping an open mind since SG is the first fighter that has ever convinced me to play a charge character AND a grappler seriously.
Depends on who you talk to for this one. Marlinpie would probably curse it forever lol.
MikeBreezy92
Member
Not really dude. Tekken's fanbase casually dropped because of Tekken 6. Competitively T6 was good for Tekken. No one is really leaving the game barring casuals because its more of the same. Its just not getting new people
So which characters would you remove from Tekken that aren't the clones introduced in TTT2. Capos and Bears don't count.
KidA Seven
Member
How long are the madcatz team going to take pictures? It's hilarious seeing some of the poses they have to do because of a fan's request.
ShinMaruku
Member
Revolution can really grow the brand but it needs some of the 'old arcade' feel go and they go whole hog and maybe Tekken can have a rebirth.
I think DOA5U shows it can work I just think they need 2 more core characters than the ninjas and the rotation. They could really not need to sell characters and just sell outfit they have the art team for it. They could also sell some new modes. Hell Revolution should add that Tekken force mode as something to pay for.
Lambda Pie
Banned
honestly, it's easier to ask which ones i would keep. T7, in my idea, would be another time lapse, T2 to T3 style. say, 17 years or so.
returning characters:
- Jin
- Kazuya
- Hwoarang
- Xiaoyu
- Nina (does she even get old anymore?)
- King
- Asuka (with some moves from TTT2 Jun)
- Jaycee (revamped so she's completely lucha style, very few old school Julia moves)
that's 8. if they did the initial 12, here's 4 originals:
- some dude trained in secret by Heihachi, to replace him
- a Bruce + Marduk mix up, modern MMA fighter
- female ninja from the Yoshimitsu clan, mix of his and Kunimistsu moveset
- new character with a completely new style
grab the old movesets, tune them and bring new characters for the rest.
they weren't afraid of taking risks till T4, but T5 and 6 were the definitions of playins safe with rosters. i honestly feel a shake-up is in order to restore some popularity.
Unfortunately he thinks his humour is more important than his ridiculous knowledge of the game, so it's a moot point.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Zhi is hilarious, but he should really lay off of the jokes on controversial topics.
Even if those jokes are also hilarious. But yeah.
Even if those jokes are also hilarious. But yeah.
ShinMaruku
Member
Some humor is based of controversy, the fact that they are still funny after it shows the man has talent. He can be funny and informative, easily one of the best commentators we have right now.
This is how games die out.
Yeah, I agree. Zhi is unquestionably my #1 commentator because he has the knowledge and the humor.
QuikZilver
Member
http://www.twitch.tv/madcatz/b/463801249
Day 2 Exhibition matches while you guys were talking about boring ass Tekken and Marvel patches.
Day 2 Exhibition matches while you guys were talking about boring ass Tekken and Marvel patches.
Nah. Basically if you don't like his juvenile humour, it's hard to take him seriously when he's actually giving good info. If you do, then sure, he's probably your greatest commentator.
IMO these Tekken characters are essential now:
Jin
Kazuya
Heihachi
Hwaorang
Xiayou
Law
Paul
Nina
King
Yoshimitsu
Julia
Steve
Asuka
Lei
Eddie or Christie
Jack
Bryan
Feng Wei
Raven
And then the 10 I want back;
Leo
Miguel
Zafina
Lili
Bob
Dragonov
Lee
Lars
Craig
Alisa
Beyond these 30 they can add 5 more original characters plus a boss for 36. Characters I didn't mention like Armor King and Baek should have their moves moved to their respective counter parts.
Another 4 who can return include Wang, Ganryu, Bruce and Bear for an even 40 but that's it. That's the cap.
Jin
Kazuya
Heihachi
Hwaorang
Xiayou
Law
Paul
Nina
King
Yoshimitsu
Julia
Steve
Asuka
Lei
Eddie or Christie
Jack
Bryan
Feng Wei
Raven
And then the 10 I want back;
Leo
Miguel
Zafina
Lili
Bob
Dragonov
Lee
Lars
Craig
Alisa
Beyond these 30 they can add 5 more original characters plus a boss for 36. Characters I didn't mention like Armor King and Baek should have their moves moved to their respective counter parts.
Another 4 who can return include Wang, Ganryu, Bruce and Bear for an even 40 but that's it. That's the cap.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
RIP in peace Jun. See you in another 10 years.
My post was simply in response to the claim that it's crazy to think Zhi's the best commentator. I'm sure you're willing to remove your own subjective views for a moment and can acknowledge the rationale behind people loving his commentary, even if on a personal level you can't stand him.
I was moving down in the thread, directly responded to your direct response to me before reading further.
My bad.
KingSunIsFree
Banned
why so snippy? are you trying to say it was successful?
Lambda Pie
Banned
playing too safe. these characters have run their course.
they had no problem killing off Kazuya from T2 to T3, lesser character should get the axe even easier.
Hwoa would absorve iconic Baek moves, same for King with A King. Wang with Feng Wei.
here's one of my ideas: have the new Bear be raised by Paul, getting his moveset. retire old man Paul.
join the 3 capos into one.
25 characters is a good number. over 30 and it starts to get really bloated.
MikeBreezy92
Member
You just can't play Baek moves with Hwoarang since they are very two distinct styles of TKD. Sorry inner Baek main is talking.
Armor King....is a toss up.
Armor King....is a toss up.
Fuck no on Paul being retired.
Wang fills the "old Chinese guy" quota of a fighting game.
Kazuya is too iconic to Tekken now unfortunately, he is the top 2 main character of the game. It would be like taking out Ken from the next SF... it makes sense from a game play point of view but a ton of people are attached to the character.
The rest of the characters I mentioned serve a niche or represent a geographical location. Only characters I have a problem with are characters like Alisa, Dr.B and Roger who are just wacky for the sake of being wacky. Kuma more than fills the wacky quota of the game.
And this wasn't even the toughest choice I had to make... I even took out Anna Williams, Armor King, one of the Jins and Kunimitsu.
Wang fills the "old Chinese guy" quota of a fighting game.
Kazuya is too iconic to Tekken now unfortunately, he is the top 2 main character of the game. It would be like taking out Ken from the next SF... it makes sense from a game play point of view but a ton of people are attached to the character.
The rest of the characters I mentioned serve a niche or represent a geographical location. Only characters I have a problem with are characters like Alisa, Dr.B and Roger who are just wacky for the sake of being wacky. Kuma more than fills the wacky quota of the game.
Sorry Baek gotta go. TKD is TKD... we already have our representative.
And this wasn't even the toughest choice I had to make... I even took out Anna Williams, Armor King, one of the Jins and Kunimitsu.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Put guest characters in Tekken. Start with Naruto
Master Milk
Member
for what it is, yes
Lambda Pie
Banned
i'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. while i would keep some characters, no one is iconic enough to avoid the cut. one of the reasons why i love SF3 and why SF4 was a step back.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
put sagat in tekken
Sometimes you just gotta sell a product and Kazuya on the box art sells more copies than Lars for example.
And I didn't remove Lars because he fills the crazy over the top DBZ dude niche to get the 10-12 year old kids to buy the game.