So if a black person walking down the street sees her, he/she shouldn't be offended? Remember, you only know that she's cosplaying as this character from this TV show because you read this article or watch the show. Most people will at first glance think she's caricaturing a black prison inmate.
Julianne Hough (Actress/Singer/Dancer) Blackface Halloween costume
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So if a black person walking down the street sees her, he/she shouldn't be offended? Remember, you only know that she's cosplaying as this character from this TV show because you read this article or watch the show. Most people will at first glance think she's caricaturing a black prison inmate.
Again, that really has no bearing on the discussion. We know her intent, so that is a pointless question.
People can and should be offended at whatever they see fit, if is a small or a big deal is besides the point.
How? You can have good intentions and come off as ignorant. Who says the two are in any way mutually exclusive. The fact is, what she did was in bad taste, and to most who have not seen this article and witnessed her walking down the street in that, she would be presumed to be doing something much worse than she actually is.
People come with good intentions all the time and come off as being dicks/ignorant/etc. You can't dismiss the actions of a person simply because their intentions were good. Life doesn't work like that.
You've brought up context multiple times in the thread... Well, in the context of a Halloween party someone dressing up and painting themselves wouldn't be that out of the ordinary, would it?
If it were a Tuesday in August and someone was walking down the street in full body paint? Yeah I'd think it were fucked up. That's not the case.
Here's my opinion:
Being a black man living in a "black society", I wasn't offended by this whatsoever. My sister, who is usually more in line with the common activists, immediately knew what character she was trying to portray and wasn't offended either, and was quite upset she even apologized.
My problem with this is that people feel that they have to be offended due to historical reasoning. "You're 'insensitive' or 'ignorant' if you do not agree" is not a fair thing to say. I've been in many situations where being black caused some very unfair advantages: yet this quote happen to appear in this thread:
- Being white for black people isn't fun? Did you make that definition yourself?
- Why can't you apply this to all races? Where has white people gain any advantages by portraying a black man? Black people will always be black, white people will always be white. All makeup washes off, and no one will gain any advantages for a Halloween costume.
To put it lightly, the faster we all get over it together, the better it will be. Some kinds of racism still exist because we choose for it to exist. The word "nigga" in everyday speech. It's okay for black people to say but not white. Why not? If white people can't say it in unoffensive tones, then it shouldn't be said at all. Even Hispanics and Middle Easterns have gained the "privilege" to use the word openly.
Frankly I'm tired of the separation race forces. We have to close the gaps in all directions.
Being a black man living in a "black society", I wasn't offended by this whatsoever. My sister, who is usually more in line with the common activists, immediately knew what character she was trying to portray and wasn't offended either, and was quite upset she even apologized.
My problem with this is that people feel that they have to be offended due to historical reasoning. "You're 'insensitive' or 'ignorant' if you do not agree" is not a fair thing to say. I've been in many situations where being black caused some very unfair advantages: yet this quote happen to appear in this thread:
- Being white for black people isn't fun? Did you make that definition yourself?
- Why can't you apply this to all races? Where has white people gain any advantages by portraying a black man? Black people will always be black, white people will always be white. All makeup washes off, and no one will gain any advantages for a Halloween costume.
To put it lightly, the faster we all get over it together, the better it will be. Some kinds of racism still exist because we choose for it to exist. The word "nigga" in everyday speech. It's okay for black people to say but not white. Why not? If white people can't say it in unoffensive tones, then it shouldn't be said at all. Even Hispanics and Middle Easterns have gained the "privilege" to use the word openly.
Frankly I'm tired of the separation race forces. We have to close the gaps in all directions.
tensuke
Member
The way I see it is she was going for a certain character, she wasn't trying to do black inmate #7342 or an African tribal woman or anything of that ilk. It all matters based on the context...Ben Stiller in Zoolander, Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder, Rob in Always Sunny, those were funny, nothing really racist about them. It's not racist just because a white person paints themselves black. Now, in some situations it is racist because of the way "blackface" is used (eg. the traditional, overly exaggerated look), especially when it's just the face that was painted black, hence the term, "blackface". But when it's not just the face, but the whole body, and you're playing a specific character...Well that's not something to outrage about.
Of course, I don't think it's a very well-known character (generally, only people that have Netflix, and have seen OITNB, would get it), and the fact that it is a black character in a prison jumpsuit, without widespread context, was probably a poor choice.
To those who say intentions don't matter, that's the entire point of understanding one another. Understanding one's intentions rather than shoehorning in your own ideas about why someone did something and what it means.
Of course, I don't think it's a very well-known character (generally, only people that have Netflix, and have seen OITNB, would get it), and the fact that it is a black character in a prison jumpsuit, without widespread context, was probably a poor choice.
To those who say intentions don't matter, that's the entire point of understanding one another. Understanding one's intentions rather than shoehorning in your own ideas about why someone did something and what it means.
I don't think she did it with any sort of intent to offend and is probably genuinely surprised by the outrage. I think she just likes the show and wanted to 'dress up' as Crazy Eyes for Halloween. I do think there's a chance that (she assumed) people wouldn't 'get' who she was trying to reference/be without the skin tone make up.
Doesn't mean she should have done it or that people in here should be labelled 'the PC police' for thinking it's not cool.
Doesn't mean she should have done it or that people in here should be labelled 'the PC police' for thinking it's not cool.
I hate this so much. You can't have an opinion because you are white, or are you too scared to have an opinion because you are white?
Except she isn't ignorant in this instance, the people who don't know what she is doing are. She knows exactly who/what she is portraying. You or them not understanding that she is playing a certain character isn't her problem, it's yours. She shouldn't have apologized, it just enables the ultra-sensitive and gives them the feeling that they are right when they aren't.
MWS Natural
Member
A lot of these aren't technically blackface but come on let's stop with painting yourself to look black.
Fashion Designer Allesandro DellAcqua And More Wear Blackface To African Themed Disco Africa Halloween Party
Allesandro DellAcqua, came in blackface. Here he is, posing below with Stefano Gabbana (of Dolce & Gabbana) and Juan Fran Sierra
Carlotta Oddi and Paula Cadematori
http://onlystylishpeople.blogspot.it/2013/10/disco-africa-hallowood-2013-party.html
http://statigr.am/tag/discoafrica
http://statigr.am/tag/hallowood
Fashion Designer Allesandro DellAcqua And More Wear Blackface To African Themed Disco Africa Halloween Party
Allesandro DellAcqua, came in blackface. Here he is, posing below with Stefano Gabbana (of Dolce & Gabbana) and Juan Fran Sierra
Carlotta Oddi and Paula Cadematori
http://onlystylishpeople.blogspot.it/2013/10/disco-africa-hallowood-2013-party.html
http://statigr.am/tag/discoafrica
http://statigr.am/tag/hallowood
"inappropriate", like "insensitive", is another one of those words invented by americans that really don't mean anything, and are just used to justify shitting on people that do perfectly innocuous things for perfectly innocuous reasons, that could be miscontrued to be nefarious when arguing with enough bad faith. I don't think I will ever understand why people should apologize for the ignorance of others.
Yes. Hellboy being red is part of his character. Is their race the central focus of the character?
No one would know that you were Geordi without painting your skin? The visor wouldn't be enough?
Why stop at painting your skin? Why not get a wig or dye your hair as well?
Do you know who these characters are?
This doesn't make any sense.
I've never seen "Orange is the New Black" in my life. Now that she darkened her skin, am I supposed to suddenly go, "OHHHHHHH! She's that Crazy Eyes character! If she was just in an orange jump suit, I never would have known who she was."
She was appealing to people familiar with the show, just like the people dressed up as super heroes are appealing to people familiar with super heroes. If you don't already know who Superman is, his "iconic, well-known outfit" isn't going to mean jack.
If you've seen the show, would it be a mystery who she was going as?
Shamrock7r
Member
It makes perfect sense and I really don't know what point you are trying to argue with me. I simply pointed out that some costumes are harder to identify than others, which is correct. You are looking way too far into something. Lol, and come on man, it would be incredibly hard to find someone who didn't know Superman's suit, and you know that.
Personally, I don't see how this is offensive at all. Even in the slightest.
People need to remember that the offensive core of blackface wasn't that white people were coloring themselves "black" in offensively over-the-top ways. No, the offensive thing about blackface was that these white performers would then proceed to act out the most stereotyped and demeaning "characteristics" of black people, and this served as a form of comedy because people truly believed it all.
But just coloring the skin? No, that wasn't even half of it. And I don't think we should be offended by that, because the implication then becomes that people should only portray characters of their own race, and I sure as hell don't want to get locked into that.
Julianne darkened her skin to portray a certain character, a character she happens to admire from a popular show. She didn't do it to lampoon all black people.
People need to remember that the offensive core of blackface wasn't that white people were coloring themselves "black" in offensively over-the-top ways. No, the offensive thing about blackface was that these white performers would then proceed to act out the most stereotyped and demeaning "characteristics" of black people, and this served as a form of comedy because people truly believed it all.
But just coloring the skin? No, that wasn't even half of it. And I don't think we should be offended by that, because the implication then becomes that people should only portray characters of their own race, and I sure as hell don't want to get locked into that.
Julianne darkened her skin to portray a certain character, a character she happens to admire from a popular show. She didn't do it to lampoon all black people.
No, I'm pretty sure it's racists who "create" racism in this country.
EsotericManiac
Banned
I dressed up as my bud for Halloween once who is black. I had his girlfriend, who is white, snatch his favorite track suit he'd always wear.
He fro'd his hair a good deal and my hair was really long, so i used a ton of hairspray and fro'd out my hair to mimic his
I bought foundation made for people with darker complexions. turned out pretty nice.
his girlfriend who gave me the track suit mistook me for my bud once at the halloween party.
you could probably consider that blackface but noone found it offensive
He fro'd his hair a good deal and my hair was really long, so i used a ton of hairspray and fro'd out my hair to mimic his
I bought foundation made for people with darker complexions. turned out pretty nice.
his girlfriend who gave me the track suit mistook me for my bud once at the halloween party.
you could probably consider that blackface but noone found it offensive
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Posts like this doesn't even surprise me anymore.
Coreda
Member
Personally I've been reshaping my views on this based on the excellent posts by Trey and others, but I think it's as Hough's makeup covers the visible area of the skin, is not intended to be demeaning in tone, and looks less like what most would associate with blackface (and frankly more like a dark tan), whereas the Trayvon getup is a piece of truely offensive and disrespectful turd in anyone's opinion and looks more the a typical minstrel blackface.
One is based on a TV character, the other on controversial and tragic recent news.
Are you really surprised? Firstly it's simply a human condition to care less about things that dont directly impact you. Second the race card and racism tag is still be slung around like confetti at a parade. So why care enough to voice an opinion?
I care to the extent that it's funny how hard some people try and be offended so they can pretend to be victims of the evil and oppressive Julianna Hough. But beyond that no opinion on such nonsense.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
And with trouble comes money.
SMH @ some of the responses in this thread. This isn't blackface, folks. Could some be offended? Of course, but people are generally offended by everything these days, and it's a two-way street.
Being offended is a combination of the intent of the "culprit" and the emotional reaction of the "victim", and in cases like this the culprit's intent could be confused and the victim could just be really damn dense.
EDIT: And just to be clear, I'm obviously talking about the Julianna's Halloween costume. I don't know what the fuck those trash doing the Treyvon piece were smoking, but that one's clearly malicious and offensive. If you want to talk about blackface, start by critiquing that..
Just read the post above you, or a lot of similarly well-framed posts in this thread.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The Trayvon problem has a lot of problems beyond just the skin coloring, but I'd say the skin coloring is particularly problematic given how racially charged everything surrounding that case was. I'm in the camp that says that I only don't mind this example because its meant to be a very specific fictional character of which skin tone is a visual attribute.
Moff
Member
how is this roger sterling pic not in that topic, yet?
and under what circumstances is a white person allowed to dress up as a black character?
can I go as obama?
what woud be more offensive? If I wore one of those obama plastic masks or if I painted my face? is it the painting thats offensive? would the case in this OP be ok or at least less offensive if the she didnt paint herself bute wore a plastic mask? I feel it would.
and under what circumstances is a white person allowed to dress up as a black character?
can I go as obama?
what woud be more offensive? If I wore one of those obama plastic masks or if I painted my face? is it the painting thats offensive? would the case in this OP be ok or at least less offensive if the she didnt paint herself bute wore a plastic mask? I feel it would.
how is this roger sterling pic not in that topic, yet?
and under what circumstances is a white person allowed to dress up as a black character?
can I go as obama?
what woud be more offensive? If I wore one of those obama plastic masks or if I painted my face? is it the painting thats offensive? would the case in this OP be ok or at least less offensive if the she didnt paint herself bute wore a plastic mask? I feel it would.
Why the need to paint your skin? Obama has some pretty distinct mannerisms, and not to mention his speech pattern.
Moff
Member
would the mask be offensive, too?
and if I really did go as white obama, wouldnt that be racist, too?
I feel the message would be "I wish obama was white"
damn, thats a tough one
Because he is black?
And Julianne Hough's dark skin somehow made it easier to know who she is now? Did you even read my post?
Is being black the most important thing out of him?
IdreamofHIME
Member
Yes. Hellboy being red is part of his character. Is their race the central focus of the character?
No one would know that you were Geordi without painting your skin? The visor wouldn't be enough?
Why stop at painting your skin? Why not get a wig or dye your hair as well?
Do you know who these characters are?
If the purpose of that photo is to show a racial opposite JLA, then Green Lantern should be white.
It's a defining characteristic of his appearance.
Coreda
Member
It's interesting, when looking at many of the other full body paint makeup photos posted it's amazing how virtually none of them pull it off without looking like douchebags.
I actually find Hough's body paint attractive (or perhaps more specifically her face darker). She looks better in the second photo in the OP than in the magazine cover IMO. Perhaps the fact she carries the look as successfully has influenced some of the opinions in this thread, too.
Again though, people really should read Trey's multi-quote post in the last page, as I found it to be the clearest summary of why the issue can be insensitive and even offensive - otherwise we'll continue to have identical posts for the next half-dozen pages.
I actually find Hough's body paint attractive (or perhaps more specifically her face darker). She looks better in the second photo in the OP than in the magazine cover IMO. Perhaps the fact she carries the look as successfully has influenced some of the opinions in this thread, too.
Again though, people really should read Trey's multi-quote post in the last page, as I found it to be the clearest summary of why the issue can be insensitive and even offensive - otherwise we'll continue to have identical posts for the next half-dozen pages.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
See, this is exactly the kind of stuff it keeps coming back to. Like the guy said above:
Is there really any way that a white person should ever portray a black person in any way shape or form, darkened skin or not, or should that just be completely off limits?Moff said:
And by extension is that the only race that relation should apply to, or is it equally offensive for someone who's black to make themselves up to look asian?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But doesn't this then say, in some form, that his race doesn't matter? Is that not also wrong on some level? I mean, its a self-professed large part of his history, his heritage and his identity. Just how should someone who is not Obama's race portray him respectfully? Is there such a way or should they simply not do it?
I'm fine with people saying "no you just shouldn't do it" to that last question by the way, as long as we can acknowledge that that's what we're saying
Zen_Arcade
Banned
He was being sarcastic.
Shamrock7r
Member
I did read your post. You lack reading comprehension and jumped to an incorrect conclusion based on no evidence. I thought his photo choice was a bad one for his argument, and you somehow concluded that I even made an opinion about the skin being painted.
wat. Plenty of people aren't familiar with superheroes and know who Superman is.
You were better off using Power Girl, Zatanna or Shazam.
not to mention a superhero outfit isn't the same as a generic prison jumpsuit.
"Familiar with Superman" = has seen Superman with your eyes
The way I used "familiar" is not to be interpreted as "read the comic books/seen the movies/has the collectables/etc
Please forgive me. What is your opinion?
Count Dookkake
Member
I dunno about most, but given the historic first of his election, I suspect it is of at least some importance. Probably more important than say a suit or vocal pattern.
Yeah. I was just curious about what the thought process was behind the relevant poster's stance with regards to the hypothetical cosplaying of Obama. Clearly, his appointment as potus is historic.
Some people seem to define heavily on the race element, and that's what was I was curious about.
Got my answer, though. Much obliged.
Shamrock7r
Member
As I've said before, and I am speaking about this picture only, at best, to me it looks tacky and would weird me out to see in person. It's fairly easy to see that no negative or insulting context was the purpose in painting her skin dark, so looking at it from that perspective, I wouldn't see the legitamacy of being offended by this story. Of course my definition and your definition of what "being offended" means May differ slightly and I think that is a big reason for some of the discourse on here.
Apparently so, which is fucking ridiculous. This was harmless cosplay, blown out of proportion.
You want so-called blackface? Go look at those racist, insensitive, douche-bags who're dressing up as Treyvon Martin. That's offensive.
Sometimes I wonder who plays the race card more, whites trying to not be racist or actual racists.
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