It looks like people in this thread are offended at the list of posters dismissing any qualms about this act being offensive more so than the act itself.
she was an idiot and insensitive to do it in the first place, but yeah. she was dumb, people went "what the fuck", she went "oh shit sorry" and that was it. she at least seemed like she learned something, or at least was able to give a sincere-sounding apology.
it's the rest of these folks bending over backwards to defend the shit that disgusts me, because they've seen the mistake, had time to think about it, and still refuse to let anything get through their MUST DEFEND AGAINST ALL ACCUSATIONS REGARDLESS OF CONTEXT brand of engaging with racial topics
Damn man, chill out. I personally don't think she was trying to offend anyone, if people weren't screaming blackface it wouldn't be a problem.
Plus isn't the point of blackface to be offensive mainly as a coal-black, ugly person (exaggeration)? A cute white girl in a bronze tan is still a cute white girl who's a cute girl, so it dudn't quite work out.
This is one of those cases of making racism out of something that wasn't deliberately racist. Actual racism can be found in those Barneys and Macy's stories of late, however...
So, what if someone wanted to dress up as Aaron from Titus Andronicus or Othello? Characters who are absolutely defined by being black or Moors. Because I agree that this is not offensive to me as a white person, but I certainly see where the issue lies. And that even if it's too politically correct to shame this girl, it was insensitive. And I agree that you don't need to match the skin colour of a character because the characters aren't defined by that skin colour. But what about the ones that are? And what other ones are truly defined by their natural, and naturally occuring skin colour? Powder, I suppose, an albino. Mikhail Gorbachev. List 'em if you got 'em.
What if Two-Face wasn't half-burnt monster/half-normal and was instead half-white/half-black, somehow split vertically. What if people wanted to be this new two-face for halloween?
I'd of used Micheal Jackson* as a first case x3; sometimes I think he did the whole skin thing just so everybody across the world could dress as him on Halloween and not be accused of racism.
I don't get why this is racist. She's portraying a character in a show who's african american. I wonder if people would feel the same if it were the opposite.
Anyways, if she wanted to go the extra mile, why didn't she get brown contact lenses?
So to summarize, what I've found from this thread is it's not the actual appearance of someone using makeup to darken their skin (as this can be a deliberate cosmetic choice, too), but rather the association with racism in the past - which as Supe has pointed out can't easily be forgotten - that upsets so many people.
It's a bit painful for me to say it but if people want to make a better world for their children, they need to get over the pain and clear the air with this shit. If you think about it, society hasn't progressed all that much since the '70s in regards dialogs around "certain topics", a lot of it to do w/ the older generation who still hold on to most of the power structure and they of course being the ones who in some way went through a lot of the worst directly or were around it as children and not far removed.
We've basically been repackaging these social issues over and over again so they continue to persist as problems and in a way keep certain powers of hierarchy intact. But a lot of people are being selfish and care more about their own feelings then truly healing wounds and cleaning out the closets to actually create a society for future generations that'll live up to wordy ideals from decades, even centuries ago.
It's sad to know that's the reality, but that's what it is.
Martha Plimpton, currently working on the Fox sitcom "Raising Hope" but you might remember her from the 1980s movie "Goonies", has decided to express her opinion about this on her twitter account.
Context is important. White Chicks may be slightly uncomfortable, but it's barely if at all racist because white face isn't a thing and there's no historical baggage to go with it. In Cloud Atlas, it's done to serve the purpose and theme of the movie, not to caricaturize or parody the races.
My point was just that race in general can very much be a costume, as you can see it happening in movies without people many complaining.
Now blackface must apparently be treated different than any other kind of race-makeup (note how none of the white and asian actors in Cloud Atlas wore blackface) because of its history but generally saying "race isn't a costume" sounds too overcautious to me. Wouldn't it be a step forward if someone's race wouldn't matter more than his or her hair color?
reincarnation was heavy in the plot, so this was necessary for the movie in order for the audience to connect the characters together in different time periods.
2) Dressing up as a character for Halloween isn't the same as dressing up as a character for a film or a comedy skit. Films and skits have stories behind them and are usually connected to the performance, which is why the film images being posted in this thread don't relate to this situation at all.
3) What is offensive and/or discriminatory to one ethnic group doesn't necessarily mean it will also be offensive and/or discriminatory to another ethnic group. For example:
In the thread above, a young black male was arrested for purchasing a belt at a Barneys store in New York because the police and or managers at Barneys assumed he couldn't afford the belt/he must have been using stolen credit cards to obtain the belt.
Had this been a young man from another ethnic group, I doubt this story would have ever been a story at all. But because of the history of discrimination US black people as a group have dealt with, it increases the negativity of this incident. Did the police/managers harass the young man for being black? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but the history of these situations doesn't help their case.
Obviously this situation is a lot different than the situation going on with the actress and the Halloween costume, and they are not equal in any regard. I'm just illustrating that history is important and that when it comes to ethnic discrimination/being offended and comparing one ethnic group to another, there will never be a 1 =1 scenario. Dave Chappelle doing a skit in white make up will never be offensive to as many people as an Al Jolson in blackface when you include the history the ethnic groups.
I get what you mean but I find it a bit funny that you mention it being more ok in movies than for something like Halloween. Isn't the entertainment/movie industry exactly where blackface originated from?
I don't get why this is racist. She's portraying a character in a show who's african american. I wonder if people would feel the same if it were the opposite.
Anyways, if she wanted to go the extra mile, why didn't she get brown contact lenses?
Dat historical context that everyone in this thread seems to forget.
And yes, I would still be weirded out by it anyway.
Also, without this article providing context towards what she was doing, you guys do know that she'd just look like she was trying to caricature black prison inmate right? Just throwing that out there...
If the costume she wore was exactly the same without the painted skin, people would still immediately have known who she was portraying. You don't need to paint your skin to be a black character anymore than a black person needs to paint their skin white to play a white character. How people fail to understand this, I simply don't understand.
Pretty much. Sometimes you can simply embody the character and people will get it. I'm playing Bruce Wayne this year and I'm doing something to make sure people just get it. Don't need to paint my face white.
With that said, I don't really find this offensive since she was just attempting to make it authentic. She just looks like an idiot is all.
Pretty much. Sometimes you can simply embody the character and people will get it. I'm playing Bruce Wayne this year and I'm doing something to make sure people just get it. Don't need to paint my face white.
With that said, I don't really find this offensive since she was just attempting to make it authentic. She just looks like an idiot is all.
I think this is what most people in this thread realize, what people are angry at are more towards the posters vehemently defending this, saying that whoever thinks that this is even slightly offensive is being too pc, overly sensitive, and pathetic. Of course it doesn't make it better when those same people then try to use Tropic Thunder or White Chicks to try and prove their point.
And once again you have to also realize that without this article explaining why she did what she did, most black people(most people in general) will think that she's dressing up as a caricature of a black prison inmate. Her decision making was in extremely poor taste.
I get what you mean but I find it a bit funny that you mention it being more ok in movies than for something like Halloween. Isn't the entertainment/movie industry exactly where blackface originated from?
Correct, but the reason why the films being posted as counter points in this thread are "more ok" is because of the context the make up is being used in. For example in an episode of the show Madmen, one of the characters
dresses up in blackface and performs a minstrel show.
Had the character gone to a Halloween party in the costume he wore in the episode it would have offended a lot of people. Hell if you just posted an image of the character from the episode I'm sure some people in the thread would ask where the image came from at the very least. In context however, Madmen is a show set in the 1960s, and in the episode the character was supposed to be offensive to the viewer.
It's the difference between Leonardo DiCaprio saying the N word in an interview with TMZ vs Leonardo DiCaprio saying the N word in Django Unchained. It's not to say that it's always ok to dress up in blackface/do offensive things in film format, just that it's ok when there's a story or a good reason for said character to do it. And in the case of this Halloween costume, there wasn't a good enough reason for Julianne to use brown makeup.
if you claim to not understand why this is offensive, then you are part of the problem. racism woll continue to thrive because you refuse to recognize it. evil wins when good does nothing, etc...
Another reason this costume is shoddy (and it is shoddy) It's a four person costume. Piper, Alex, Mendez, and Crazy Eyes. Right? Why isn't Hough, who is tiny and white, dressed up as Penssatucky?
Costume instantly improved, need for skin-painting drastically reduced, nobody bats an eye, she still has fun dressing up as her favorite Netflix Original for eat candy and get drunk day.
if you claim to not understand why this is offensive, then you are part of the problem. racism woll continue to thrive because you refuse to recognize it. evil wins when good does nothing, etc...
if you claim to not understand why this is offensive, then you are part of the problem. racism woll continue to thrive because you refuse to recognize it. evil wins when good does nothing, etc...
Ignorance on both sides lets racism continue. Ignorance of what Blackface actually is and ignorance that while she is not performing blackface it could still be taken as offensive.
I somehow doubt America is ever going to grow up and move past its past because people don't want too. Looking for trouble where there is none is just going to stir up trouble.
Ignorance on both sides lets racism continue. Ignorance of what Blackface actually is and ignorance that while she is not performing blackface it could still be taken as offensive.
I somehow doubt America is ever going to grow up and move past its past because people don't want too. Looking for trouble where there is none is just going to stir up trouble.
So if a black person randomly saw her in that getup and got offended, they're looking to stir trouble where there is none?
Once again, without this article explicitly explaining that she was trying to emulate a character from a TV show a good 90% of people(probably more) will think she's dressing up as a caricature of a black prison inmate. But I guess anyone that gets offended is helping keep racism alive according to you.
Personally I don't see the big deal about this. However, in a previous topic The Adder wrote a really good reply which made a lot of sense why painting yourself black is not necessarry. I think what it boils down to in these things is that I can try, but can never exactly know how it feels for the people involved. And all the things i say or feel don't matter, you can't judge a person for being offended if you're not in his/her shoes.
The "offense at potential offense" brigade that often rushes into threads about racial/gender politics does a very good job at making "being offended" seem like the pettiest, smallest, silliest thing on earth, to the point where the question SEEMS like it should be "Why are you even offended, what's wrong with you for looking at this weird?"
But the question seems to be more like why wasn't there the sort of forethought or consideration taken by Ms. Hough to maybe conceive of a costume that wasn't so problematic for a number of reasons. And why would that level of forethought or consideration be something that SHOULDN'T be taken into account?
People who drive-by with comments like nateeasy's, for example, Seem less concerned with engaging on the subject, and more concerned with showing anyone who might be reading how above it all they consider themselves to such trivial and small problems as famous people making race part of their halloween costume.
Which is slightly counterproductive, as if they really didn't care, they wouldn't have taken the time out of their busy Sunday morning to go to the off-topic board on their favorite video game forum and read a topic about famous models painting their skin brown for a party.
If the costume she wore was exactly the same without the painted skin, people would still immediately have known who she was portraying. You don't need to paint your skin to be a black character anymore than a black person needs to paint their skin white to play a white character. How people fail to understand this, I simply don't understand.
And so what if she had darker skin? People keep ignoring intentions. Black face wasn't offensive because white people painted their skin black. It's offensive because of how they used black faced to mock black people.
And so what if she had darker skin? People keep ignoring intentions. Black face wasn't offensive because white people painted their skin black. It's offensive because of how they used black faced to mock black people.
Which is why it's not a very good idea to do it now. It's sorta hard to tell intent if you don't know the person or it's not extremely obvious. Which, in this case, unless you've read the article or can see past the pretty unrecognizable costume, it's not. You can have good intentions and still come off as ignorant. There is nothing wrong with pointing out such a thing.
no they're not. Thread's full of people acknowledging that she had good intentions. She just didn't think them through.
I guess maybe the question isn't the one you initially asked, or the one I posted.
Really, so far as the main conflict in this thread, the one that keeps repeating every couple pages goes, I guess the question is this:
Is it worth other people's potential offense/anger/indignation to make your Halloween costume as accurate as possible? Is your love of a fictional prisoner on a television show worth more than someone else's discomfort at seeing you wear another person's skin as part of your Halloween costume?
That's basically the question. And the disagreements are coming from people who think it's obviously NOT worth it, vs people who think that answer is completely unfair to those who want to paint their face brown and go to parties.
Damn man, chill out. I personally don't think she was trying to offend anyone, if people weren't screaming blackface it wouldn't be a problem.
Plus isn't the point of blackface to be offensive mainly as a coal-black, ugly person (exaggeration)? A cute white girl in a bronze tan is still a cute white girl who's a cute girl, so it dudn't quite work out.
This is one of those cases of making racism out of something that wasn't deliberately racist. Actual racism can be found in those Barneys and Macy's stories of late, however...
Right, but obviously this creature is so dumb that it's a miracle she's able to muster the intelligence to breathe. Being ignorant to the degree that you're essentially on the thinking level of a drooling toddler is no excuse. Of course, I partly blame the culture at large for elevating these ridiculous non-entities to celebrity status.
And how about those that haven't seen the show?(which is most people btw) are they supposed to look at that and say "well, that looks an awful lot like a caricature of a black prison inmate, but I should probably chill, it's all in good fun!"
At the very least(which it seems like most of this thread somehow can't even comprehend, which is very telling) you should be able to agree that her costume is clearly not well thought out. At all.
And how about those that haven't seen the show?(which is most people btw) are they supposed to look at that and say "well, that looks an awful lot like a caricature of a black prison inmate, but I should probably chill, it's all in good fun!"
At the very least(which it seems like most of this thread somehow can't even comprehend, which is very telling) you should be able to agree that her costume is clearly not well thought out. At all.
Great, then we should be offended by her darkening of the skin because it looks nothing like blackface. Black face was more then just darkening your skin.
Historically black face and white people portraying blacks in a stereotypical fashion was non-debatable racist. Combined with the fact that you have fraternities and sororities now that are having "Ghetto" parties with black face means that the general practice of white people portraying black people is pretty fucking racist.
Was Julianne Hough being racist? Well, she's dressing up as a specific character on a show. The intention doesn't seem racist but then again, we can't read her mind.
Best to avoid any kind of doubt and not dress up like a black person if you're white.
Great, then we should be offended by her darkening of the skin because it looks nothing like blackface. Black face was more then just darkening your skin.
Don't these mindless twits have teams of agents and managers that are supposed to stop them from doing things like this.
Maybe it's like celebrity Darwinism, weeding out the stupidest fucking ones, although I fear this has just upped her profile the way a sex tape would've a decade ago.
It's intellectually dishonest to compare what she did to what blackface historically was.
It's responses like this that exemplify why we're currently at the place we are in this country regarding race and racism- we can't even discuss it because anything that involves race at all=racism.
Blackface and using makeup to dress up like a black person are two completely different things.
Blackface is offensive due to historical and racial context. People need to stop associating putting makeup to look like a black person as blackface, they are not the same.
Blackface and using makeup to dress up like a black person are two completely different things.
Blackface is offensive due to historical and racial context. People need to stop associating putting makeup to look like a black person as blackface, they are not the same.
It's intellectually dishonest to compare what she did to what blackface historically was.
It's responses like this that exemplify why we're currently at the place we are in this country regarding race and racism- we can't even discuss it because anything that involves race at all=racism.
It's responses like this that exemplify why we're currently at the place we are in this country regarding race and racism- we can't even discuss it because anything that involves race at all=racism.
