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[Sobriquet]

Because we are still primitive beings who are only driven on impulse and lack common sense and forethought right? Because it is right to put yourself into a situation where one change can send you into a downward spiral, that totally isn't irresponsible as all hell.

Now I know that getting disabled at work was my fault. Thanks for the insight!

 

[KingK]

Yes, yes, I understand it on a collective level. As long as you generalize businesses as a whole and just mention "the economy" it becomes very simple to work with but if you charge some of these businesses within that collective more money that they may not see returned to them they will have to do something to make up that cost, which may in turn affect the amount of income workers there receive. If the business is not directly affected by the spending on "bills" and "food" then the cost per worker per hour definitely does add up.

Well, when debating macroeconomic policy it probably is best to discuss its effects on the economy on the macro scale rather than try to cherry pick any individual businesses that may be hurt and use it as an excuse to not raise the minimum wage.

 

[Freshmaker]

UP the minimum wage to $10?!?!? Jesus, how do people live?! Our minimum wage is double that.

Typically, two full time jobs.

 

[casabolg]

Well, when debating macroeconomic policy it probably is best to discuss its effects on the economy on the macro scale rather than try to cherry pick any individual businesses that may be hurt and use it as an excuse to not raise the minimum wage.

?

We need to fully understand businesses as a whole before we make a judgement on what will benefit them all. That's why we also put a lot of detail into the demographics of minimum wage workers - so we can make correct judgements about the group we're talking about. If you only help 1/4th of businesses in a large way while costing 1/3rd of businesses then you put some in a position in which they would want to do something that would hurt employees. This needs to be understood so the concept of "give more to the working poor and it will boost the economy" isn't abused similar to how republicans have been abusing "cutting taxes will boost business spending". That was my whole argument. I haven't argued against raising the minimum wage. Just adding a bit more detail about the dangers that come along with to a single line of thinking.

Oh, and I'm not against the idea of raising the minimum wage - just how the minimum wage is raised. I find the current arguments for raising and keeping it as is both have problems and find the best solution would be similar to how Australia does it - a scaling wage determined by age with a higher max minimum wage at the highest determined age listed.

 

[Messofanego]

This from Washington Post was a good read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ree-raising-the-minimum-wage-reduces-poverty/

What should people take away from this? The first is that there are significant benefits, whatever the costs. If you look at the economist James Tobin in 1996, for instance, he argues that the “minimum wage always had to be recognized as having good income consequences….I thought in this instance those advantages outweighed the small loss of jobs.” Since then there’s been substantially more work done arguing that the loss of jobs is smaller or nonexistent, and now we know that the advantages are even better, especially when it comes to boosting incomes of the poorest and reducing extreme poverty.

A higher minimum wage will lead to a significant boost in incomes for the worst off in the bottom 30th percent of income, while having no impact on the median household.

It really sounds like a win-win effect for everyone, even among the minimum wage opponents.

 

[casabolg]

This from Washington Post was a good read.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ree-raising-the-minimum-wage-reduces-poverty/




It really sounds like a win-win effect for everyone, even among the minimum wage opponents.

Not a big deal but why in the world would anyone link to the Center of Economic and Policy Research to disprove something progressives want to disprove? For goodness sake.

 

[benjipwns]

Not a big deal but why in the world would anyone link to the Center of Economic and Policy Research to disprove something progressives want to disprove? For goodness sake.

Because progressives are beholden to actual science, if the process of science discovers that reality runs counter to their beliefs they will change their beliefs to be in line with the facts of proven science.

 

[zero shift]

Not a big deal but why in the world would anyone link to the Center of Economic and Policy Research to disprove something progressives want to disprove? For goodness sake.

I always thought that CEPR was left wing? That think tank LOVES Chavez's policies..

 

[Hitokage]

Because progressives are beholden to actual science, if the process of science discovers that reality runs counter to their beliefs they will change their beliefs to be in line with the facts of proven science.

If we're going to be strict about what is science, then economics does not qualify. However, one should still take an evidence-driven, empirical approach, because if we're going to know anything at all it's through data.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Econ is a social science one in which it's more popular to defend ideologies than to reflect empirical data.
Then again many sciences would not qualify in that very strict definition of science. Certainly not many medical and biological fields.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

If we're going to be strict about what is science, then economics does not qualify. However, one should still take an evidence-driven, empirical approach, because if we're going to know anything at all it's through data.

This is somewhat unfair to economics. 'science' is really just anything that follows the scientific method of formulating a hypothesis, predicting the consequences of the hypothesis, designing a test which could disprove that hypothesis, carrying out the test, and seeing whether it has invalidated the hypothesis. Microeconomics certainly fits this definition, and those studying utility preferences and the like regularly design and carry out tests which often invalidate previously held theories.

Macroeconomics doesn't fit into this category, true, because we can't exactly subjugate economies just to test if inflation really does react to the labour supply by making millions unemployed. However, that places it in roughly the same category as weather forecasting - we can test how individual particles work and predict their behaviour, but we can't test how untold billions of particles work, so we have to deduce a prediction based from our observations at a much smaller scale.

 

[Chinner]

at the end of the day, americans are too stupid and too stubborn to realize that these things would improve their living standards and make their lives easier and happier. they' rather work 2 full jobs while living poorly and die at the age of 50 due to obesity thanks to no health care - thinking they themselves will become rich, and supporting the conservatives who will make it their job to make sure they will never become rich rather than even consider the idea that some basic rights or 'communism' would help the entire population. no wonder all the americans do is obsess ovet food, guns and NFL, real life is too depressing to even bother thinking about.

 

[EXPotemkin]

at the end of the day, americans are too stupid and too stubborn to realize that these things would improve their living standards and make their lives easier and happier. they' rather work 2 full jobs while living poorly and die at the age of 50 due to obesity thanks to no health care - thinking they themselves will become rich, and supporting the conservatives who will make it their job to make sure they will never become rich rather than even consider the idea that some basic rights or 'communism' would help the entire population. no wonder all the americans do is obsess ovet food, guns and NFL, real life is too depressing to even bother thinking about.

You're damn right. That's why I game all day. lol

 

[Funky Papa]

A proper Chinner post. I feel like I stumbled upon a rare gift.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

at the end of the day, americans are too stupid and too stubborn to realize that these things would improve their living standards and make their lives easier and happier. they' rather work 2 full jobs while living poorly and die at the age of 50 due to obesity thanks to no health care - thinking they themselves will become rich, and supporting the conservatives who will make it their job to make sure they will never become rich rather than even consider the idea that some basic rights or 'communism' would help the entire population. no wonder all the americans do is obsess ovet food, guns and NFL, real life is too depressing to even bother thinking about.

Americans overwhelmingly support a minimum wage increase, even in deep red states

 

[TacticalFox88]

Americans overwhelmingly support a minimum wage increase, even in deep red states

Their votes and party affiliation say otherwise.

 

[fritolay]

I saw a facebook image post, about Austrailia and 18 or so dollar minimum wage. And the image of course linked that to this country not being impacted by the recent recessions. Anyone know more details on the truth/false idea of this?

 

[FOOTE]

My dad made $5 in the 70s and did just fine

Your Dad could have bought a house for $10,000 to $20,000. Today, that same house would have a price tag in the $450,000 to $700,000 range.

Their votes and party affiliation say otherwise.

Most of them have no fucking clue what they're voting for.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I saw a facebook image post, about Austrailia and 18 or so dollar minimum wage. And the image of course linked that to this country not being impacted by the recent recessions. Anyone know more details on the truth/false idea of this?

Australia's minimum wage is AUD 16.37 per hour.[1] When adjusted for differences in purchasing power, that's equivalent to USD 8.85 per hour (approx.). Australia hasn't been in recession since 1991, and has had higher economic growth per year than the United States of America since 2000, with the sole exception of 2010. Neither of those have much to do with the minimum wage - the former is because Australia has a vast amount of natural resources and a proportionately small population, and the latter is because Obama engaged in a huge amount of fiscal stimuli.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Walmart isn't my proof, I'm simply saying they have the similar reasoning.

Also, I find it humerous to think one needs proof to accept that owners are greedy.



Of course, but this really isn't the case here and you know it. You're trying to turn this into an argument over semantics but the reality is most Americans support a minimum wage hike to 10.10: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/minimum-wage-poll_n_3691118.html

So unless that 20% is entirely small business owners when 2/3 of them support a "minimum wage hike" without a stated number, it's pretty safe to assume most, if not all, that 2/3 support a $10.10 wage hike. I think it's safe to assume they all assume a $10 minimum wage hike.



If their reasons are "inability to pay," then they're going to go under very soon regardless of a minimum wage hike. This often gets lost on people.

Their reason is "it will cut our profits" to which I have a small violin playing (oh, and yes, I've experienced in small businesses).



Yeah, and minimum wage workers earning more means more money to spend on their good, which is good. The point is that small businesses have to compete for skilled labor and rarely employ unskilled labor outside the food sector (who is already exempt from the minimum wage law). That's why only 15% of small businesses pay someone minimum wage or less and with most of those being restaurant jobs exempt, the actual percentage of those paying out minimum wage is almost irrelevant. And the same goes for near minimum wage.

It is the big businesses who fear a minimum wage hikes because it will eat their profits in addition to making their products less desirable (income effect!).



This is completely wrong. Most evidence shows huge positive effects on poverty and nearly non-existent effects everywhere else. Card/Krueger was only the first in a long line of studies demonstrating this. Your argument is nothing but Neumark's BS argument (I'll mention him again later) which Card/Kruger addressed in a later paper and refute.

Regarding youth employment, this has also been refuted. Neumark's study was directly refuted by this paper: http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/166-08.pdf

In fact, some studies show it increases youth employment: http://moya.bus.miami.edu/~lgiuliano/minwage_prepub.pdf

The first link is Canada and I'm not bothering with it. The second link doesn't work and you're liking the Fraisier Institute, a libertarian think tank. The final is from Neumark and Wascher (the latter is a complete schill for conservative think thanks and corporations, btw) and Neumark is pretty much the only current American economist pushing the minimum wage is bad argument (besides when Wascher pops his head up from the sewers) and his own papers have been thoroughly refuted numerous times to the point that he goes back and re-does them after they've been refuted. There is no reason to take Neumark's research seriously as anything he's done before 2012 has been destroyed and sent to waste bins. Neumark himself, when confronted with the data he found, admitted the effects are negligible but essentially argued it didn't matter because basically if it has a negative effect of 0.00000000001, then it shouldn't be allowed regardless of the positive effects.

If you want to read stuff not being pushed by an agenda, I'd start here: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the 'reasons' or 'agendas' people have for not supporting minimum wage.

You realize that a business can have multiple employees that are paid minimum wage right? If you have to raise 20 or 30 employees wages by 33%, it isn't simply a case of "going to fail anyway". This kind of reckless attitude and carelessness would be government tyranny.

Canada is an important case study since the minimum wage is an actual price floor. 5.8% of Canadians are paid minimum wage ($10.25) compared to 2.6% of Americans ($7.25). It's high enough to make a difference in terms of youth employment and hours, and many jobs become unsustainable because they pay more than they're worth.

I don't think it's fair that you dismiss the studies I linked because this or that person is conservative or libertarian. Much more so after you link sites and papers from HuffPo, CEPR, Labor Center and the likes without a hint of irony. I consider myself left-wing (party I regularly vote for is Marxist-Leninist by American standards) but I don't disagree with people for purely ideological reasons. Debates would go nowhere.

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/166-08.pdf
http://moya.bus.miami.edu/~lgiuliano/minwage_prepub.pdf
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

Give me a few days to read the first and third one. Your second paper seems to be about a large chain; I already know that those stores have the most to gain from an increased minimum wage, but that's not an economic study. For the first paper you linked, I don't know if I'm missing something, but in the data table it looks like the fourth specification shows a decrease in employment and hours, but for whatever reason the graphs look to be plotting a different result. I might be missing something since I only skimmed through it, so I'll see what's up with that.

 

[jet1911]

USA, why do you hate yourself that much? No free healthcare, super low minimum wage... I'm sad for you

 

[Gallbaro]

If I ran a large retail outfit, I would be all for it...

Good, bad or indifferent for the economy every increase in the minimum wage, which would have an effect through most of the supply line as well as on my labor would make it that much harder for the mom and pops to stay in competition as I could use my purchasing power and sheer size to maintain a lower price while eating less of the cost increase.

 

[Autumn Wind]

I won't debate anyone since I am not going to change their opinion, though I will say I did vote for the minimum wage increase in NJ where I live and glad it passed. I hope there is another vote to increase the minimum wage again soon.

 

[Sanjay]

So Americans minimum wage is £4.42, no paid minimum holidays and no free healthcare.

Must be really hard and kind of sad how such a rich country treats its people.

 

[TacticalFox88]

So Americans minimum wage is £4.42, no paid minimum holidays and no free healthcare.

Must be really hard and kind of sad how such a rich country treats its people.

The irony is, that if the rich and coporations weren't so fucking stupid and short-sighted that they should be falling over themselves to help the middle class out.

Because a successful middle class MAKES THEM GODDAMN RICHER!!! If they ACTUALLY wanted more money, they'd be the first ones advocating for their taxes to be raised, and other progressive policies. They aren't greedy contrary to popular belief, they're just extremely selfish idiots.

What kind of moron wouldn't jump at the chance to enact policies that basically would perpetuate wealth GREATER than what they have now AND without the negative baggage and image that comes with it? It's a win-win-win for everyone involved

 

[Plinko]

So Americans minimum wage is £4.42, no paid minimum holidays and no free healthcare.

Must be really hard and kind of sad how such a rich country treats its people.

Yes and yes.

 

[CrunchyB]

The irony is, that if the rich and coporations weren't so fucking stupid and short-sighted that they should be falling over themselves to help the middle class out.

Historically, a strong middle class helps reduce crime and improves political stability. The good kind of political stability, not the 2-party paralysis the US is suffering from.

If the middle class is all but wiped out...bad things happen.

 

[casabolg]

So Americans minimum wage is £4.42, no paid minimum holidays and no free healthcare.

Must be really hard and kind of sad how such a rich country treats its people.

Individual businesses provide holidays and healthcare and is applied as a competitive measure over other businesses.

 

[benjipwns]

Individual businesses provide holidays and healthcare and is applied as a competitive measure over other businesses.

So what? There are people without them so we need the General Will to defend its rights.

If I ran a large retail outfit, I would be all for it...

Good, bad or indifferent for the economy every increase in the minimum wage, which would have an effect through most of the supply line as well as on my labor would make it that much harder for the mom and pops to stay in competition as I could use my purchasing power and sheer size to maintain a lower price while eating less of the cost increase.

And this is why we need strong anti-trust and fair business practice laws to prevent this kind of predatory behavior.

 

[Dead Man]

Individual businesses provide holidays and healthcare and is applied as a competitive measure over other businesses.

Yes, but it should be a fundamental part of every employees workplace rights. As healthcare should be for every citizen.

 

[Gallbaro]

So what? There are people without them so we need the General Will to defend its rights.

And this is why we need strong anti-trust and fair business practice laws to prevent this kind of predatory behavior.

What is wrong and predatory about it? Nothing suggests monopoly. But look at the banking sector, the more regulations that are on book the fewer and fewer banks there are do to costs of compliance. Since the coin was termed the main banks are even too bigger to fail.

 

[benjipwns]

What is wrong and predatory about it? Nothing suggests monopoly. But look at the banking sector, the more regulations that are on book the fewer and fewer banks there are do to costs of compliance. Since the coin was termed the main banks are even too bigger to fail.

You're trying to drive the small businesses out of business through practices, which would eliminate those jobs, which is predatory and should be illegal behavior.

Everyone has a right to a job and big business shouldn't be allowed to use their outsized power to steal those rights from the people without facing serious consequences.

 

[Earthstrike]

What is wrong and predatory about it? Nothing suggests monopoly. But look at the banking sector, the more regulations that are on book the fewer and fewer banks there are do to costs of compliance. Since the coin was termed the main banks are even too bigger to fail.

Glass-Steagall was a governmental regulation was it not? The removal of the act decreased the number of banks greatly.

 

[Oblivion]

What is wrong and predatory about it? Nothing suggests monopoly. But look at the banking sector, the more regulations that are on book the fewer and fewer banks there are do to costs of compliance. Since the coin was termed the main banks are even too bigger to fail.

You're saying we have few banks cause of Dodd-Frank? Somehow I doubt they're not around anymore cause of compliance failure.

edit: also what Earthstrike said.

 

[B-Dubs]

What is wrong and predatory about it? Nothing suggests monopoly. But look at the banking sector, the more regulations that are on book the fewer and fewer banks there are do to costs of compliance. Since the coin was termed the main banks are even too bigger to fail.

That is straight up misinformation and just plain wrong. Look at the number of banks before the repeal of Glass-Steagall (and other similar regulations) and after. The number of banks shrunk after deregulation because they've been merging and buying each other out.

 

[kame-sennin]

What is this cost of living nonsense? The whole reason the minimum wage needs to be raised is because as the cost of living has risen dramatically over the past couple of decades, the minimum wage has remained stagnant, which has lead to the lowest tier workers losing purchasing power over time. The minimum wage has essentially been on a downward spiral for quite a while, because it hasn't kept up with other rising costs and inflation, and raising it would just correct that.

That's why the minimum wage needs to be replaced by the living wage. Otherwise we'll have to fight the same battle every twenty years.

 

[Black Mamba]

What US small businesses have multiple minimum wage workers full-time? Outside of restaurants (which are exempt!) I'd love to know. My guess is most of these places have like 1 or 2 people (a cashier and a janitor) and everyone else is paid more. As you later point out, very few Americans make minimum wage or less and most of them who aren't in a small business restaurant are in things like fast food and large retail, not small businesses.

What US small business employs 20-30 people at minimum wage. Does such a place exist?

Canada is an important case study since the minimum wage is an actual price floor. 5.8% of Canadians are paid minimum wage ($10.25) compared to 2.6% of Americans ($7.25). It's high enough to make a difference in terms of youth employment and hours, and many jobs become unsustainable because they pay more than they're worth.

You undermined your own argument when you admit the US's minimum wage isn't high enough to matter...which is the entire point...

I don't think it's fair that you dismiss the studies I linked because this or that person is conservative or libertarian. Much more so after you link sites and papers from HuffPo, CEPR, Labor Center and the likes without a hint of irony. I consider myself left-wing (party I regularly vote for is Marxist-Leninist by American standards) but I don't disagree with people for purely ideological reasons. Debates would go nowhere.

Well, IIRC Wascher has been caught lying but it was years ago so maybe I'm confusing him (and the links I made were to articles on HuffPo, not the same). But regardless, Naumark's work has actually been refuted by other economists. Like, they used his own data and filled in the holes he left. I believe he even retracted one since (but the internet still uses it!)

 

[HappyBivouac]

So Americans minimum wage is £4.42, no paid minimum holidays and no free healthcare.

Must be really hard and kind of sad how such a rich country treats its people.

America is a country in which people with more money than they know what to do with convince people who are stupid and poor to stay stupid and poor because Jesus.

So, yes, it's hard, and well-beyond just "sad."

 

[ramparter]

My dad made $5 in the 70s and did just fine

You seem to know your shit about economics!

 

[Castcoder]

If minimum wage goes up, more people become unemployed because greedy assholes that own McDonald's want profits by the hour. When I worked at a McDonald's, we sent people home if the cost of workers exceeded our hourly income.

Say 10 people are working in the span of one hour and wage is at $7.25 (minimum wage in Wisconsin), if we pretend managers got paid exactly the same for this example, a McDonald's would have to sell $72.50 every hour. To be honest, $50 in an hour is sometimes good revenue on slow days where I was employed, and it was one of the biggest in the state for my owner.

Now if minium wage goes to $10.10, and a McDonald's can't achieve $101 for 10 employees with $10.10 as the minimum wage PER hour, what do YOU think will happen? Less hours, less employees, less paychecks, less income for McDonald's to pay employees with, less money, less customers, less demand, LESS JOBS AGAIN!!! Rinse and repeat. Keep it the way it is.

By the way, I heard no one at the McDonald's I worked at can go over 30 hours now because 40 hours qualifies you for Obama Care. There are already less hours than before!!!

 

[Chichikov]

If I ran a large retail outfit, I would be all for it...

Good, bad or indifferent for the economy every increase in the minimum wage, which would have an effect through most of the supply line as well as on my labor would make it that much harder for the mom and pops to stay in competition as I could use my purchasing power and sheer size to maintain a lower price while eating less of the cost increase.

And yet small businesses support minimum wage increases much more than big retail and their lobbying groups.
Probably because small businesses are not often in direct competition with big retail (at least not to any level that would show on the bottom line).
The economy of scale makes big retail already cheaper than small one, if a small business is trying to compete with the wallmarrts of the world on prices, it's already dead.

Also, I'm not sure that the labor component is larger in small businesses than large retail, and I don't think that there is evidence that increase in minimum wage significantly increase costs of the supply chain in today's world, definitely not across the board.

Not to sound like a dick, but that sounds a whole lot like the tried and true Chamber of Commerce small business concern trolling.

 

[speculawyer]

I'll do you one better. My mother worked 3 jobs to support her three children (not just "a kid"). Why? Because she didnt have the skills necessary to find a single job that did the same. What did she do? She kept working and got the skills necessary and found that single job.

I love my mom but having to work 3 jobs was not society's failure and never will be. In the absence of "good jobs" when you are forced to work jobs outside of your skill set just to pay bills it is also not society's fault and not your own (partly), rather, the policies of our leaders which led to that situstion of forced hands. Even then, the ability to prepare and adapt to change is not something that is ever taught (sadly) and by consequence part of the blame still falls on the individual.

There is only so far an individual can pass the buck. This isnt some "bootstraps" mentality, it's common sense. Being proactive isnt something today's reactive society is good at.

You are free to pretend that the individual is never at fault, if you wish: Woe is me, woe is me.

Yeah, this is a big gaping hole in the conservative philosophy. They always like to rail against lazy irresponsible people. But there are lots of very hard working responsible people that still end up in shit situations. And I believe that many if not most of the people that go bankrupt due to medical problems actually had health insurance. So even if you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and work like hell and STILL fail . . . well that just isn't a very fair system is it?

 

[entremet]

I'm surprised at the push back against rising the minimum wage on GAF. I've always thought this board was more progressive the most. Go figure.

 

[Jado]

If minimum wage goes up, more people become unemployed because greedy assholes that own McDonald's want profits by the hour. When I worked at a McDonald's, we sent people home if the cost of workers exceeded our hourly income.

Say 10 people are working in the span of one hour and wage is at $7.25 (minimum wage in Wisconsin), if we pretend managers got paid exactly the same for this example, a McDonald's would have to sell $72.50 every hour. To be honest, $50 in an hour is sometimes good revenue on slow days where I was employed, and it was one of the biggest in the state for my owner.

Now if minium wage goes to $10.10, and a McDonald's can't achieve $101 for 10 employees with $10.10 as the minimum wage PER hour, what do YOU think will happen? Less hours, less employees, less paychecks, less income for McDonald's to pay employees with, less money, less customers, less demand, LESS JOBS AGAIN!!! Rinse and repeat. Keep it the way it is.

By the way, I heard no one at the McDonald's I worked at can go over 30 hours now because 40 hours qualifies you for Obama Care. There are already less hours than before!!!

You seem simultaneously upset about the low pay AND fully accepting of the bullshit reasons fed to you why minimum wage shouldn't be higher.

None of the doom and gloom crap you posted is based in reality. Most jobs will remain intact.