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2012 First U.S. Presidential Debate |OT| OK Libya... We need a leader, not a reader.

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A

Axiology

Member
Hey guys, AP just published a new picture of Jim Lehrer!


8ee0C.jpg
 
M

MormaPope

Banned
I think I'm going to ignore all the media having to do with either president and just vote, I've heard and seen enough to decide on my vote and before this debate it was going to Obama and after the debate it's going to Obama.

The media around elections has always been a riled up, roided out circus, but following pre election content on the abysmal big news networks or on neogaf would probably make me go psychotic. Can't tell if people are trolling or if some people are just plain ignorant.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
P

Partial Gamification

Banned
The debates should be held such that each candidate is in a separate room and their mic gets cut when they run out of time. There are practical ways to keep the participants from derailing any hope of a structured argumentation. I feel bad for Jim Leher, he tried to be respectful and was overtaken by nature of the "debate." He has served the public for a long time, I think bashing him is in bad taste but I can understand where it is coming from.
 
D

Dreamcaster

Banned
I see some places trying to run with the "poor kids, rather lower income kids" statement Romney. What is the beef? Is the word "poor" now some supposed dog whistle?
 
A

Axiology

Member
Partial Gamification said:
The debates should be held such that each candidate is in a separate room and their mic gets cut when they run out of time. There are practical ways to keep the participants from derailing any hope of a structured argumentation. I feel bad for Jim Leher, he tried to be respectful and was overtaken by nature of the "debate." He has served the public for a long time, I think bashing him is in bad taste but I can understand where it is coming from.
Click to expand...

Within the last 2 days I can't remember how many times I've said the phrase "Jim Lehrer sucks", but it's really just clowning. I'm sure the average American knows it wasn't actually his fault. No one anticipated just how much this debate would get out of control, but you really would figure they would prepare for this possibility. Debates have been going on for how long exactly?

Still, I wouldn't do it the way you suggested. We all know debates are intended to be a forum for discussing ideas and judging merit, but it's undeniable that a lot of the draw comes from being able to see these guys meet publicly for the first time in ages. It's all been leading up to this. The touring, the conventions, everything. To sterilize it to that extent would really rob the debate of much of its appeal.

Still, there's gotta be a lion tamer there somewhere. My suggestion? Timers, buzzers, mic cuts and a moderator who isn't afraid to use all 3.
 
D

Dreamcaster

Banned
Partial Gamification said:
The debates should be held such that each candidate is in a separate room and their mic gets cut when they run out of time. There are practical ways to keep the participants from derailing any hope of a structured argumentation. I feel bad for Jim Leher, he tried to be respectful and was overtaken by nature of the "debate." He has served the public for a long time, I think bashing him is in bad taste but I can understand where it is coming from.
Click to expand...

I was actually surprised to see that Obama spoke for about 3-4 minutes longer than Romney, thought Romney said something like 500 more words.
 
S

Sealda

Banned
Obama supporters trying to find any excuse to not face the fact, that it was just Obama debating Romney and thats it.


What "Not even Obama understood what was going"?! What is that supposed to mean? Are people trying to justify this as some weird 1-time funny incident, where Romney happened to be passionate to the point of seeming crazy?!

Obama, real tough holding some campus speeches. Truth is, he should have stepped up last nite rather than today, in front of already die hard supporters.
 
J

Jintor

Member
I'm not saying that Obama wasn't disappointing out there; he definitely should have been quick on his feet and calling out Romney on every front. He's not a great debater; that's not anything that most people are disputing. But Romney got up there and spouted a bunch of self-contradictory bullshit so fast and so confidently that the President apparently shut down in self-defence. Nevermind that everything Debate Romney said almost entirely repudiates or contradicts the policies that Primaries Romney had been putting out over the past few months entirely.
 
S

speedline

Banned
Partial Gamification said:
The debates should be held such that each candidate is in a separate room and their mic gets cut when they run out of time. There are practical ways to keep the participants from derailing any hope of a structured argumentation. I feel bad for Jim Leher, he tried to be respectful and was overtaken by nature of the "debate." He has served the public for a long time, I think bashing him is in bad taste but I can understand where it is coming from.
Click to expand...

Sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to, but hell no. This is the time that the challenger gets to stand toe to toe with the President on the same stage and can be judged accordingly. They come into these debates as equals and when Romney stepped up next to Obama he looked like he was ready and able to take the mans job. That's the first time America has truly seen that from Romney.
 
P

Partial Gamification

Banned
speedline said:
Sorry things didn't work out the way you wanted them to, but hell no.
Click to expand...
I (naively) wanted substance and just got talking points from both sides. When I said "should" I didn't mean to imply that my suggestion was "the answer." "I would like to see.." would have been a better way to put it.

I think there is validity to having the debates "deliver" with respect to what had built up to them. My problem is the desire for spectacle rather than substance.

[edit:] and the two could have monitors to view eachother for the exchange of reactions. I realize that this is not a popular suggestion.
 
D

Deified Data

Banned
Confirm/Deny: Obama's lackluster performance can be partially attributed to his desire to avoid being portrayed as an "Angry Black Man".

Go.
 
P

Puddles

Banned
Why do people even give a shit about who won the debate on style points?

Romney's plan to make us energy independent won't work. His tax plan fails the simple arithmetic test. He has no healthcare plan. Sure he had more enthusiasm and better zingers, and he hit more lot of rhetorical high notes than Obama, but when the substance is so non-existent, why should anyone care?

Romney supporters, I'd like to hear from you guys.
 
A

Axiology

Member
Deified Data said:
Confirm/Deny: Obama's lackluster performance can be partially attributed to his desire to avoid being portrayed as an "Angry Black Man".

Go.
Click to expand...

I've heard this theory from several places in advance of the debate and I can't lie, that's what was going through my head the whole time.
 
G

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
NullPointer said:
This is the kind of thing I could see SNL doing.

"Sorry Jim, I like you, but you're the first thing I'm cutting."
(Jim Lehrer sulks and walks off stage)

"Bring out Big Bird, Elmo, Bert and Ernie. YOU'RE FIRED!"
"I'm also reducing the number of debates to just one. That should be good enough for you people to decide on the kind of President I would be."

Just before he looks into the camera "Sorry C-Span, but you're not worth borrowing money from China".

Pulls plug. Bloop. Cut to static.


I must have missed it. But then again I watched the debate through a C-Span stream, with no extra fuss. Didn't even read or post on GAF so I could soak it all in. Maybe by the time I returned to the thread the freakouts were mostly over. Dunno.
Click to expand...
C-span is a joint operation created by the telecoms and cable providers. Not the government.
 
U

User Name Here

Member
Deified Data said:
Confirm/Deny: Obama's lackluster performance can be partially attributed to his desire to avoid being portrayed as an "Angry Black Man".

Go.
Click to expand...

Looking at some of his expressions during the debate, I could see why people would think that. Obama's fault as far as I can tell was assuming that people are paying attention to the whole election process and that people would know Romney was flip-flopping again. Most of the people who are undecided probably have no clue what's going on and really started paying attention at the first major debate. Kind of like people who only tune in at the championship of some sport.
 
M

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Dude Abides said:
This is the theme they need to push. Bush won two terms because he convinced people his opponent was a phony who said whatever was convenient at the time.
Click to expand...
I suspect that his dithering will cost him on the campaign trail. What is the "new Romney" going to say to energize his base? Or is he simply going to limit public appearances from now until the election?
 
N

NullPointer

Member
GaimeGuy said:
C-span is a joint operation created by the telecoms and cable providers. Not the government.
Click to expand...
I had no idea. Thanks. +1 Knowledge.

wikipedia said:
C-SPAN is a nonprofit organization, funded by a relatively small 6-cent per subscriber affiliate fee paid by its cable and satellite affiliates, and does not carry advertisements on any of its networks, radio stations or websites, nor does it ever solicit donations or pledges. The network operates independently, and neither the cable industry nor Congress has power over the content of its programming.
Click to expand...
 
O

Open Source

Banned
GaimeGuy said:
C-span is a joint operation created by the telecoms and cable providers. Not the government.
Click to expand...

Also, China has cut back big time on buying our debt, even become a net seller for a period of time. In 2011, the Fed pulled dollars out of thin air to buy almost a trillion dollars of debt, and this year, they are doing the same thing to buy mortgage-backed securities, essentially funneling money to banks on the backs of savers and those on fixed-incomes. US deficits this year are funded mostly by foreign investors (primarily Japan, Europe) and US households looking for a safe haven from the economic slowdown in Europe that is also being felt here - but QE3 is still indirectly funding the deficit to a large degree, since banks take the money they get from selling the securities and buy Treasuries with it.

The net result is asset inflation (which is why, for example, the stock market isn't dropping in the face of bad economic news) that, once the velocity of circulation picks up, is going to turn into a stagflation bomb...a bomb that is getting bigger with every round of QE.

I can understand why Obama doesn't seemed enthused about a second term, because the amount of shit queuing up to hit the fan is large and steadily growing.
 
2

2MF

Member
Open Source said:
Also, China has cut back big time on buying our debt, even become a net seller for a period of time. In 2011, the Fed pulled dollars out of thin air to buy almost a trillion dollars of debt, and this year, they are doing the same thing to buy mortgage-backed securities, essentially funneling money to banks on the backs of savers and those on fixed-incomes. US deficits this year are funded mostly by foreign investors (primarily Japan, Europe) and US households looking for a safe haven from the economic slowdown in Europe that is also being felt here - but QE3 is still indirectly funding the deficit to a large degree, since banks take the money they get from selling the securities and buy Treasuries with it.

The net result is asset inflation (which is why, for example, the stock market isn't dropping in the face of bad economic news) that, once the velocity of circulation picks up, is going to turn into a stagflation bomb...a bomb that is getting bigger with every round of QE.

I can understand why Obama doesn't seemed enthused about a second term, because the amount of shit queuing up to hit the fan is large and steadily growing.
Click to expand...

Damn right. The presidency looks a bit like a hot potato from where I'm standing. Who wants to catch the hot potato?

It's gotta suck from Obama's perspective. A few months before his dream of the presidency came true, everything starts sucking. I'm not crying for him because he's an asshat just like 99% of politicians, but from his perspective I can see why he wouldn't be happy about it.
 
V

Vicetrailia

Banned
Axiology said:
I've heard this theory from several places in advance of the debate and I can't lie, that's what was going through my head the whole time.
Click to expand...

I doubt it. There is always something that can be made up to hate on him (oh, now he's an elitist), so I doubt that he's concerned about that. He's hated no matter what. There is no good that he can do for the haters. And I think that independents or his followers would overlook it so long as he's not Romneying the situation.
 
A

arglebargle

Member
Open Source said:
Also, China has cut back big time on buying our debt, even become a net seller for a period of time. In 2011, the Fed pulled dollars out of thin air to buy almost a trillion dollars of debt, and this year, they are doing the same thing to buy mortgage-backed securities, essentially funneling money to banks on the backs of savers and those on fixed-incomes. US deficits this year are funded mostly by foreign investors (primarily Japan, Europe) and US households looking for a safe haven from the economic slowdown in Europe that is also being felt here - but QE3 is still indirectly funding the deficit to a large degree, since banks take the money they get from selling the securities and buy Treasuries with it.

The net result is asset inflation (which is why, for example, the stock market isn't dropping in the face of bad economic news) that, once the velocity of circulation picks up, is going to turn into a stagflation bomb...a bomb that is getting bigger with every round of QE.

I can understand why Obama doesn't seemed enthused about a second term, because the amount of shit queuing up to hit the fan is large and steadily growing.
Click to expand...

if the fed can introduce moderate inflation without letting it run away on them, then the plan may work. obviously no one wants hyperinflation, but if the problem is a debt overhang, then inflation eats away at that since the vast majority of the debt is denominated in nominal terms. if people's mortgages etc shrink in real terms, along with the relative attractiveness of savings, it could help the economy in a number of ways.

granted thats a big if, which is why the situation is pretty scary, but i dont buy into the idea that inflation is a bogeyman right now. i think it could be pretty helpful.
 
D

Dreamcaster

Banned
Romney backtracks on 47% comment - getting it out of the way 2 weeks before Obama could bring it up. I doubt Obama will bring it up because the Romney camp is surely putting together 2 or 3 talking points to say "Look, I said those comments are wrong and I think one of the fundamental qualities a leader must have is admitting when they make mistakes" and then he'll probably point to Obama's unwillingness to admit he is wrong on anything.
 
E

ElectricBlue187

Member
Dreamcaster said:
Romney backtracks on 47% comment - getting it out of the way 2 weeks before Obama could bring it up. I doubt Obama will bring it up because the Romney camp is surely putting together 2 or 3 talking points to say "Look, I said those comments are wrong and I think one of the fundamental qualities a leader must have is admitting when they make mistakes" and then he'll probably point to Obama's unwillingness to admit he is wrong on anything.
Click to expand...

Romney is now in full moderate mode after his latest firmware update. Obama said in his closing statement that he's made mistakes and hasn't been a perfect president, so Romney can't really say that.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Dreamcaster said:
Romney backtracks on 47% comment - getting it out of the way 2 weeks before Obama could bring it up.
Click to expand...

Well, no. Obama's been bringing it up for weeks now in ads, and he had plenty of time to bring it up on Wednesday and didn't do so. But this looks like a tactically intelligent move now, since Romney clearly wanted to take the opportunity in the first debate to say he was wrong (hence him saying it the day AFTERWARDS on a friendly media source) and didn't get the chance to do it. Once you see that Romney's willing to abandon any position in order to score in the debate, of course you don't bring up 47%. Let him pay his own money to apologize for that.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I find this more plausible than Al Gore's "altitude sickness" theory:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/10/04/170608/obama-debate-stumble-might-stem.html
WASHINGTON — He doesn’t face tough questions from the press very often. He rarely jousts with congressional Democrats, let alone his Republican critics.

Now President Barack Obama’s wobbly performance against Mitt Romney at their first debate is raising questions about whether he’s been too sheltered by a White House that keeps him away from skeptical audiences and minimizes confrontation.

...

Other political observers said it’s a result of Obama’s relative isolation in Washington: He prefers interviews with select journalists to unpredictable press conferences, and he doesn’t mix much with members of Congress or parry and thrust with critics who could challenge his assertions.

...

Obama has held fewer press conferences and question-and-answer sessions with reporters than his recent predecessors, according to statistics compiled by Martha Joynt Kumar

...

She noted that former Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton engaged more often in short question-and-answer sessions with reporters, “knowing that they’d have to deliver answers to questions that they might not have anticipated.”
Click to expand...

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that the actual numbers reflect this, and I have had the feeling that Obama doesn't take as many press questions as I would have expected.

He doesn't seem to interact with Congress much, either. That can dull the edge of the proverbial debate blade.
 
M

mavs

Member
arglebargle said:
if the fed can introduce moderate inflation without letting it run away on them, then the plan may work. obviously no one wants hyperinflation, but if the problem is a debt overhang, then inflation eats away at that since the vast majority of the debt is denominated in nominal terms. if people's mortgages etc shrink in real terms, along with the relative attractiveness of savings, it could help the economy in a number of ways.

granted thats a big if, which is why the situation is pretty scary, but i dont buy into the idea that inflation is a bogeyman right now. i think it could be pretty helpful.
Click to expand...

Only wage inflation can reduce indebtedness. If the secular bull market in commodities is over that would be a big help to the Fed, because raising wages in the face of rising real commodity prices is probably not going to work.
 
Mengy

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Puddles said:
Why do people even give a shit about who won the debate on style points?

Romney's plan to make us energy independent won't work. His tax plan fails the simple arithmetic test. He has no healthcare plan. Sure he had more enthusiasm and better zingers, and he hit more lot of rhetorical high notes than Obama, but when the substance is so non-existent, why should anyone care?

Romney supporters, I'd like to hear from you guys.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. Romney had a strong looking debate, but his substance was empty and contradictory, while Obama gave some substance in a lackluster way. Still, Obama has a plan while Mitt has ideas.
 
G

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Rentahamster said:
I find this more plausible than Al Gore's "altitude sickness" theory:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/10/04/170608/obama-debate-stumble-might-stem.html


I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that the actual numbers reflect this, and I have had the feeling that Obama doesn't take as many press questions as I would have expected.

He doesn't seem to interact with Congress much, either. That can dull the edge of the proverbial debate blade.
Click to expand...

He both doesn't interact with congress and rams legislation through congress according to critis. Which is BS.

Here's the thing: The white house is not supposed to write legislation. I can not begin to count the number of times I heard one of the blue dog democrats in a leadership position (like Baucus) complain that the white house was only giving them bullet points on what they wanted rather than an actual legislative draft. I remember hearing the same complaint from republicans, that the white house wasn't giving them a complete legislative draft to work with.

That's not what the Executive branch is supposed to do. That's what the Congressional Research Service is supposed to do. That's what the various think tanks are supposed to do. That's what congressional staff and aides are supposed to do. That's what the people elected to congress are supposed to do. Not the white house. The white house is responsible for executing the laws of congress, providing them status updates on the nation and guidance about the general direction it needs to go. They're the portal from the thinkers and philosophers in the courts and the legislature to the real world.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
GaimeGuy said:
He both doesn't interact with congress and rams legislation through congress according to critis. Which is BS.
Click to expand...
Not really sure what there is to contend about the claim.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/msnbcs-a...an-schultz-over-obamas-lack-of-accessibility/
Friday afternoon on MSNBC, host Andrea Mitchell confronted Obama surrogate Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL) over a growing sentiment that there is a lack of national political press access to President Barack Obama.

Mitchell mentioned to the congresswoman that President Obama has not held a formal news conference since March 6th, and bemoaned his lack of “accessibility” by playing a snippet of a local radio interview the president did, in which the hosts asked a non-political question about whether he prefers the color red or green.
Click to expand...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76601.html
Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) is trying to cut a deal on the nation’s fiscal crisis, but he can’t recall the last time he talked to the president. Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) is in charge of one of Obama’s top priorities — preventing a rate increase on student loans — but he hasn’t talked to the president in months. And Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.) is the go-to guy on high gas prices, but the chairman of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee hasn’t spoken to the president much since the previous Congress.
Click to expand...


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/chuck-to...aders-doesnt-seem-like-a-defensible-position/
Host Chuck Todd then noted, as he’s done before, that there is quite a contrast between President Obama’s schedule now and President George W. Bush‘s from this time from years ago. Bush, he said, had met with a “slew” of foreign leaders, whereas Obama hasn’t met with any. One adviser, he shared, even said that if the President meets with one world leader, he’ll have to meet with ten others. “That’s the job sometimes,” Todd pointed out. “This doesn’t seem like a very defensible position.”
Click to expand...

Individual congress members can speak for themselves, but I don't recall too many press interviews and conferences relative to what I would expect.
 
F

Futureman

Member
has Romney ever commented on the "if a woman is raped, she is not allowed to have an abortion"? What exactly is the source of that? Did that come out of the RNC and it's an official party stance? Sorry if this has been asked already.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Futureman said:
has Romney ever commented on the "if a woman is raped, she is not allowed to have an abortion"? What exactly is the source of that? Did that come out of the RNC and it's an official party stance? Sorry if this has been asked already.
Click to expand...

Official Republican Platform: http://www.gop.com/2012-republican-platform_We/#Item14

The Sanctity and Dignity of Human Life (Top)

Faithful to the “self-evident” truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion or fund organizations which perform or advocate it and will not fund or subsidize health care which includes abortion coverage. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life. We oppose the non-consensual withholding or withdrawal of care or treatment, including food and water, from people with disabilities, including newborns, as well as the elderly and infirm, just as we oppose active and passive euthanasia and assisted suicide.

Republican leadership has led the effort to prohibit the barbaric practice of partial-birth abortion and permitted States to extend health care coverage to children before birth. We urge Congress to strengthen the Born Alive Infant Protection Act by enacting appropriate civil and criminal penalties on healthcare providers who fail to provide treatment and care to an infant who survives an abortion, including early induction delivery where the death of the infant is intended. We call for legislation to ban sex-selective abortions – gender discrimination in its most lethal form – and to protect from abortion unborn children who are capable of feeling pain; and we applaud U.S. House Republicans for leading the effort to protect the lives of pain-capable unborn children in the District of Columbia. We call for a ban on the use of body parts from aborted fetuses for research. We support and applaud adult stem cell research to develop lifesaving therapies, and we oppose the killing of embryos for their stem cells. We oppose federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.

We also salute the many States that have passed laws for informed consent, mandatory waiting periods prior to an abortion, and health-protective clinic regulation. We seek to protect young girls from exploitation through a parental consent requirement; and we affirm our moral obligation to assist, rather than penalize, women challenged by an unplanned pregnancy. We salute those who provide them with counseling and adoption alternatives and empower them to choose life, and we take comfort in the tremendous increase in adoptions that has followed Republican legislative initiatives.
Click to expand...

No explicit exceptions for incest or rape. It doesn't outright ban it, but it doesn't explicitly make an exception, either.

Romney campaign has stated that they would make an exception, though:

http://thinkprogress.org/election/2...advocate-abortion-ban-without-rape-exception/
A Romney spokesperson added that the “Romney-Ryan administration would not oppose abortion in instances of rape.”
Click to expand...


If you search the entire document, there's only one reference to "rape"
http://www.gop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012GOPPlatform.pdf

Liberals do not understand this simple axiom:
criminals behind bars cannot harm the general public.
To that end, we support mandatory prison sentencing
for gang crimes, violent or sexual offenses
against children, repeat drug dealers, rape, robbery
and murder.
Click to expand...
 
M

MBison

Member
Turns out Romney's cheat sheet was his handkerchief which he used several times during debate to wipe his face.

Time to roll out the next excuse. Maybe Obama hadn't gotten laid in awhile.
 
D

diehard

Fleer
Obama has proven multiple times to me that he is pretty terrible without a prompter, i'm still baffled as to why people were surprised.
 
D

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I've seen Obama jump into the white House briefings a few times in the last few months. I could be wrong but it seemed pretty frequent.
 
C

CherryWoodFuton

Member
MBison said:
Turns out Romney's cheat sheet was his handkerchief which he used several times during debate to wipe his face.

Time to roll out the next excuse. Maybe Obama hadn't gotten laid in awhile.
Click to expand...

Maybe he got laid just before the debate and his brain was filled with post sex endorphins
 
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