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2012 NBA Offseason |OT3| The Barclays Center is covered in rust
- Thread starter Rodeo Clown
- Start date
A 5K fine to NBA players is extreme. You heard it here first.
A flop is not an infraction that causes harm to the game. You also heard it here first.
How much did they fine Cuban for all those "harmful" remarks?
You can watch online too right? I need to get a friend or famiy's login so I can watch. From what I've seen this is pretty much the greatest channel ever and I could seriously watch it all day lol.
CharlieDigital
Banned
It's not that it's extreme in the sense of pure dollars and cents, but extreme in that it sets a precedent for fines for player behavior that does not negatively affect the game and is a valid defense strategy and is a part of the game, IMO.
It's one thing to fine for a fight or flagrant foul as these are incidents that can injure another player or fans, but flopping is entirely harmless.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
More than any other reason, it lessens the value of the game.
I don't want to see Chris Paul reenact the self abuse scene from Fight Club in order to win. Play some fucking D.
Fuck it, bring hand checking back if need be. That'd solve the offensive flopping at least.
I don't want to see Chris Paul reenact the self abuse scene from Fight Club in order to win. Play some fucking D.
Fuck it, bring hand checking back if need be. That'd solve the offensive flopping at least.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
I fear for the games of Paul and Blake with these new flopping rules, lol.
For real though. Blake better step up his post game and not play for flops this year.
For real though. Blake better step up his post game and not play for flops this year.
Chris was always a pansy...
But Blake didn't really start flopping incessantly until he realized how effective it was.
Rodeo Clown
All aboard! The Love train!
I heard professional contrarian Colin Cowherd today saying that it will stop guys from playing defense.
It's a slippery slope!
It's a slippery slope!
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
True, he went overboard last year. The Paul aura forced his flop hand.
I love my Clips, but I hate the flopping that goes on. Yuck. At least make your free throws Blake.
CharlieDigital
Banned
I don't see it this way at all.
It's clever to me in the same way that a magic trick is clever. It's sleight of hand and acting that is used to create the illusion of a foul and is a legitimate skill. Analogous to a fake hand-off in the NFL.
If flopping is such an issue, it should not be dealt with via fines, it should be dealt with via training of the officials.
If the officials don't call the flops, players will not be incentivized to flop because it would leave the defense vulnerable. Have the flops as non-calls or treat it as a delay-of-game type of call within the game and let the officials handle it in the flow of the game and if a player gets away with it, it's the way it should be. Being able to sell a foul is, IMO, a skill that is just as important for defenses as shot blocking.
Take away the reward for it instead of punishing for a valid defensive strategy in the same way that shot blocking is legal and valid to a point (goal tending).
Let the officials make the call.
Why doesn't the NBA give one of the refs on the floor an earpiece.
Have a ref sit in a room with a tv monitor, where they can watch replays, and if they see a flop, call down to the ref. Automatic change of possession or have some other consequence.
Seeing a freight train like Lebron snap his neck back on a drive because Steve Nash is in his way is a joke.
Calling it on a 3 where Kobe slides to the left to make it seem like someone smacked him on the way down is hard to see in real time.
Have a ref sit in a room with a tv monitor, where they can watch replays, and if they see a flop, call down to the ref. Automatic change of possession or have some other consequence.
Seeing a freight train like Lebron snap his neck back on a drive because Steve Nash is in his way is a joke.
Calling it on a 3 where Kobe slides to the left to make it seem like someone smacked him on the way down is hard to see in real time.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
The fake handoff is more comparable to a pumpfake. In those two, a player is falling for a move of deception by another player. In flopping, the players aren't trying to fool the players they're competing against, but the refs. It's a pretty big difference. Not to mention that people look ridiculous when flopping and flopping leads to a ton of complaining on both sides (because one side is getting bad calls and the other side is starting to feel that they can push refs into calling what they want) which is irritating.
Red Blaster
Member
NBA officials are corrupt shitstains who often try to make the games about themselves instead of the players.
CharlieDigital
Banned
If it's a "bad call" as you say, then it is on the officials to make better calls. Isn't that pretty clear?
The officials are making bad calls and you want to fine the players?
No, the officials have to make the right call and not reward flopping. Fixes the problem instantly.
It's that simple.
Great argument, would debate again/10
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
But the refs suck and are intimidated by star power and yelling. Removing responsibility from the refs until we have computer refs is a good idea.
CharlieDigital
Banned
These are the exceptions and not the rule. The refs make thousands of decisions -- calls and non-calls -- each game and some of them will be right and some will be wrong.
And in the case of the Duncan ejection, I do believe the ref was suspended for a few games.
You cannot make the argument "the refs suck!" as a valid argument because then why have them in the first place? Clearly, they serve a purpose and if we give them the authority to call other types of fouls, they are already authorized to determine whether a particular incidence of contact is a foul or not.
In other words, the refs already have the authority to fix the issue by simply not calling it.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
lmfao, this guy.
No, they are not exceptions. Any long-time watcher of the game knows this.
The refs systematically iced out Allen Iverson during his prime. It was blatant.
I had seen the Duncan travesty but not the sheed one. Jesus that was abysmal.
CharlieDigital
Banned
So what is the alternative?
Do you understand the weakness of arguing from this position?
It is clear that the game needs refs.
It is clear that the refs make thousands of decisions each game and get the majority of them correct in both calls and non-calls.
It is clear that the league already reviews the refs and rewards the best ones with playoff gigs.
It is clear that the refs already have the authority and mechanism to regulate flops since deciding on whether an incident of contact is a foul or not is already a part of the responsibility of the refs. If the ref can call an incident of contact a foul, he can just as easily call it as a non-foul and let the league review sort it out and we end up with better refs -- it is self regulating.
The idea that players should be fined for the failure of the refs or the league to find and train suitable refs is ridiculous.
As an analogy, from a project management perspective, it's like punishing your development team for a late delivery when the requirements team delivered the finalized requirements 6 weeks late. The requirements team could have prevented it it in the first place, so why would you punish the development team?
A flagrant foul I can understand a fine. A fight? I can understand. Contact with an official? I can understand. Contact with a fan? I can understand. These are all outside of the bounds of the normal course of play and may harm other individuals. Makes sense to fine for this.
There is already a mechanism for managing flops and it is simply the failure of the league and refs to enforce their own rules. Fining the players is a ridiculous means to an end when it is the refs who should be responsible for a non-call just as they are for calls.
NBA basketball. It's like a magic trick.
The Frankman
Banned
Because you fucking can and the players are motherfucking bitchass pieces of shit for not trying to put the effort into y'know, actually playing defense and instead resorting to acting like a fricking pansy in the wind.
With the amazing progression of flopping in the last 10 years and the speed of the game, your position makes less sense. Do you realize Andrea Bargnani had at least 5 games last year where he flopped 3+ times in the same possession? LeBron James (who can get calls anytime he wants) is now flopping ridiculously? CHRIS PAUL HELIFLOPTER? DWYANE WADE???
With the amazing progression of flopping in the last 10 years and the speed of the game, your position makes less sense. Do you realize Andrea Bargnani had at least 5 games last year where he flopped 3+ times in the same possession? LeBron James (who can get calls anytime he wants) is now flopping ridiculously? CHRIS PAUL HELIFLOPTER? DWYANE WADE???
CharlieDigital
Banned
Relatively speaking, even Kosmo made better counter arguments than this in PoliGAF -- this post makes Kosmo look like Goldwater.
Illusion is part of every sport.
Heh.
"So what should the league do about it?!"
The league did decide to do something about it, but you don't like their solution. Guess what? Some of us do.
If anything, the league should be more willing to give bad refs the boot. But they won't for PR reasons.
Not doing anything is not an alternative, either.
"So what should the league do about it?!"
The league did decide to do something about it, but you don't like their solution. Guess what? Some of us do.
If anything, the league should be more willing to give bad refs the boot. But they won't for PR reasons.
Not doing anything is not an alternative, either.
CharlieDigital
Banned
They can do it without giving bad refs the boot.
1) Refs are already incentivized to make the right call by being given spots on playoff crews
2) Refs already have the power to make calls and non-calls
3) The league already has a ref review system
Make it part of the review system and simply reward the ones that make the correct non-call.
It's not that they should or shouldn't do anything about it, they can already do it without making any changes.
I know these millionaires don't need me defending them, but fining the players is a bullshit move given that the league already has the levers to solve the problem.
As I mentioned in my analogy, I would be pissed off if I were punished for a late delivery because my customer gave me the requirements 6 weeks late. You had the power to control the delivery; why am I being punished? I see this as a similar scenario where the league and the refs can easily solve this problem by doing their job -- why are the players being punished for officials who should be making non-calls?
The Frankman
Banned
You know what? You're absolutely right.
It should be a Technical foul for every flop. But the NBA is working up to that, hopefully it happens next year.
It should be a Technical foul for every flop. But the NBA is working up to that, hopefully it happens next year.
Did the customer intentionally do it to make it late? Because the players sure are intentionally trying to fool the refs. Bottom line, flopping IS NOT A BASKETBALL PLAY.
So what's the next step? Holding ketchup packets in your shorts and pretending to get cut so you can go to the foul line? If you are able to get away with it we just blame the refs for missing the call and not the players trying to cheat the system? You think this is clever?
CharlieDigital
Banned
I like delay of game better if it must be called, but rather a flop is simply a perceived foul that should be a non-call. Once you wrap your head around that, the solution is pretty simple.
It should just be a non-call to start with; that is punishment in and of itself since in most cases, it leaves the defense playing 4v5.
You don't think the problem could be solved by the players doing their job and actually playing basketball instead of trying out for WWE?
CharlieDigital
Banned
The thing is, the players are doing their job within the rules of the game. They are trying to get their team another possession or a trip to the line.
The whole act of drawing a charge or flopping is a defensive strategy aimed specifically at those two goals and fully within the rules of the game since we consider a foul an infraction of the rules.
Do you know who gets to call fouls? Not the players.
The players are absolutely doing their job.
Then it only leaves the refs to decide whether a specific incident is a foul or a non-call.
The Frankman
Banned
Red Blaster
Member
Your argument seems to be in a vacuum where NBA referees are consistent and not corrupt assholes who power trip, this is not reality as evidenced by anyone who has watched the NBA significantly.
Just these playoffs we saw officials having an imprint on games because they randomly decide to call flops
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfjkEXh-b18
Remember this? Jeff Van Gundy is right about everything here.
CharlieDigital
Banned
This argument again?
It's too easy to defeat.
Should we play the game without refs?
No?
Do the refs have the power to call a foul?
Yes?
Then by proxy, do they have the power to not call a "fake" foul or a flop?
Yes?
The efficacy, integrity, and competency of the refs is simply not a valid argument because we allow them the authority to call a foul (unless you argue that we play by playground rules and you call your own fouls :lol). Conversely, they already have the power to not call a "fake foul".
The Frankman
Banned
I was just about to post this. The mere fact that Red Blaster and I agree on anything shows how far off the reservation CD is.
Flop defending has fans too, I guess.
The Frankman
Banned
I can't believe CD is somehow not a fan of a team that is known for flopping. If he was a Heat fan or a Clipper fan, I'd get it. But Nets?
Have you ever played basketball by any chance CharlieDigital?
Rodeo Clown
All aboard! The Love train!
It's day 3 of the Brandon Roy era and he is still practicing. I think this is a minor miracle.
Well, the franchise is a flop...
CharlieDigital
Banned
To be clear, and I'm certain many of you guys are clouded here, I'm not defending flopping per se.
It is a valid defensive strategy, in my opinion, but I don't hold it strongly.
What I am against is the method of regulating it.
Because when a flop is called a foul, it is the inverse of a non-call and a ref already has the power to both call a foul or let contact go. Thus it is my belief that it should be on the league and the refs in the form of rewards for better calls to regulate flops and not player fines.
The bonus is that you end up with better refs the more you review their actions and reward or punish them.
Of course, what kind of argument is that? I mean, WTF?
You are, surely, worse than Kosmo or at least his equivalent in NBAGAF.
Usually those fans just pull some dumb excuse like they're only embellishing contact, or something. This guy is actually attempting to legitimize tricking the refs.
The Frankman
Banned
Stopped reading after that.
Oh, just saying because where I used to play ball if you started flopping like a fish on the court people would laugh you off the court, or in the worst case scenario start shit and someone would be stupid and grab their piece. But no, you go flop in the gym or in streetball.
Its a completely valid argument. Maybe you've been out if the loop but basketball refs have been the most corrupt officials, and the most inept, in American sports.