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2013 NBA Playoffs |OT2| Rose has no Muscle Memories, Durant having Russell Memories
- Thread starter reilo
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Players are loved or hated for far more reasons outside of their actual play. That is a fact. Kobe is the most accomplished and top 5 of all time and he isn't well liked outside of LA.
Public reception of LeBron was based on failures plus the incredible levels of hype, overrating, and constant coverage he received. You couldn't escape him when you turned on sports. But he wasn't winning rings. Of course the "hate" only emerged after he left the Cavs but LeBron was getting his fair share of criticism for not getting it done all those years in Cleveland. Maybe not after the first failure but certainly the perception was changing after the second, third, or fourth failure.
Unless you are comparing 100% exact same scenarios (apples to apples) you can't make that claim with a straight face. I could make a case that Melo's Denver teams always lost to superior teams in a loaded West. George Karl should also be questioned since with or without Melo he can't seem to get out of the first round. Melo never had the supporting cast Durant enjoyed until just now.
With the Knicks Melo simply hasn't the supporting case that Durant already had. Or Lebron now has in Miami. And I don't really care to criticize Durant, I already said he is better than Melo. Losing Westbrook was huge and I never claimed getting eliminated is some blight on his image/record/legacy.
But they do play the same style, and had/have very little help from their team. One is liked. The other isn't. And that is what puts Durant over the top. Melo shouldn't get a pass but the Knicks failures aren't because he needs to change his style and become Lebron or something.
If unlocking inner Durant means playing 2nd fiddle to a guy like Westbrook and being buffered by a third all star, than he simply can't because he doesn't have that talent on his team.
BUT if inner Durant means failing to carry his team by himself, then yeah he already is there.
captmcblack
Member
Ehh, whatever.
Knicks suck. Melo sucks. Potvin sucks.
Knicks suck. Melo sucks. Potvin sucks.
The eyeball test doesn't lie, and Durant looks a better player in every facet of the game. I can't think of anything that Melo does better than him, except maybe posting up. I don't even know if that's the care there. KD is a better scorer, defender, rebounder, and he's a far better playmaker while turning the ball over the same number of times. I think KD can be forgiven a bad series against a good defense focused solely on him. PEACE.
Future PhaZe
Member
Those Nuggets teams were about on par with what stars were working with back in that solo era. The dynamic changed once super teams started to form, and Melo had a chance to try to do something special. Unfortunately he gave about zero fucks about actual roster when he came to NY.
That's the spirit. Now say fuck the knicks
So then why do people give him a ton of shit when he has a bad series, but everyone is trying to give Durant a pass for playing a shit series against Memphis? Dirk got a ton of shit for having bad series, Lebron got a ton of shit, Melo always gets a ton of shit. Why should Durant get a pass? He just faced what Carmelo, Dirk and other top players face all the time because they don't have a Westbrook to back them up, and Durant was physically and mentally defeated. And up until this season he had James Harden as his 2nd wing man. Harden in his first season as a first option carried the Rockets to 45 wins. Westbrook can do the same as a first option, maybe even better. Going up against a great defensive team without a guy like Westbrook or Harden to fall back on was a test for Durant, and he failed spectacularly.
Durant should get a ton of shit for this series.
Which other team are you hinting at? Chicago?
Didn't they not want him? Or you mean the Nets?
Future PhaZe
Member
He had options. There weren't many offers on the table for him because the word from his camp was that NY was the only option. Nobody wanted a rental.
captmcblack
Member
On par with which teams?
And when did Melo have a chance to do something special? Why does he get blamed for the Knicks' FO trading a lot for him, as if he traded himself? I won't even bother auditing those pieces that were traded for him; it's up to you to decide whether or not those pieces were better. I think both teams won that trade.
Vestal
Junior Member
like I said earlier, problem here is the timing. Give Durant an entire year without ynb and I am sure even brooks could have come up with a decent offensive scheme for him and not the shit stain that we saw the past few weeks.
Nuggets offered Melo for Noah and Deng. Before Melo could even reject or accept the trade, the Bulls said no, because Noah was "untouchable", despite having Omer Asik on the roster.
Come on, let's be fair. Durant had JUST lost Westbrook. The team did not have an entire season to get used to the fact that there was no Westbrook, and it's ridiculous to think that a team can get used to that on the fly during the playoffs. That's why he gets a pass.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I think it has to do with their play style. Melo is a volume scorer who demands the ball, KD was forced into that ball dominant role.
The ball dominant player always gets heavily criticized, Kobe, Melo, Bron, Even going back to AI and small time guys like JR and Jamal Crawful.
Heart Attack
Member
Why are we talking about an irrelevant, and overrated player such as Melo. Ball Hoggers never win a championship, and unlike Iverson this dude can't carry a team by himself.
captmcblack
Member
I bet you Melo would be criminally efficient if he played with a ball-distributing guard that penetrates and shoots adequately consistently.
Melo x CP3 or Rondo or something would be glorious, and would probably allow each player to do what they do best.
Also, ball hoggers do win championships - Kobe won 5 of them. He also had more consistent help.
Melo x CP3 or Rondo or something would be glorious, and would probably allow each player to do what they do best.
Also, ball hoggers do win championships - Kobe won 5 of them. He also had more consistent help.
You don't give up the heart noah has
I understand we are on a bash Melo-fest right now, but the Knicks play this series cannot be pinned on him. I'm at a loss how anyone can watch the games and blame HIM. There are so many things wrong with this team, starting with the coaching.
captmcblack
Member
No they weren't.
Name the players on those teams ever that weren't compromised by injury or age (their prime having been spent elsewhere).
theignoramus
Member
Kobe has five....they just have to be surrounded with team oriented guys...like a Gasol and a prime Lamar Odom
Durant losing isn't the problem, it's the way he lost. Durant was mentally defeated before the elimination game. That's the problem I have with him right now. Durant has a ways to go if some physical play can take him out of the game mentally in the way it did this series.
No, they weren't.
Billups was still really dang good on those Denver teams. He also had JR, Afflalo, KMart, and Nene, and somehow still lost in the first round.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Melo played with a 32 year old Billups and a 27 year old Andre Miller. He doesn't have a good enough jumper to be a catch and shoot guy but he's an alright slasher but his touch around the rim is average and he's a bit too big for that kind of game. Basically he's screwed.
Red Blaster
Member
chauncey was an all-nba level player in 2009 and 2010
LOL!!!!
None of those guys are nearly as good Westbrook or Harden. Afflalo isn't even flopmart level. JR is a good third option at best. KMart was injury prone and was destroyed by injuries so he wasn't half as good as he was on the Nets. Nene is injury prone and he's a mental midget. Those nugget teams weren't good enough to contend. Billups gets too much credit. Guys are gonna look good playing next to Melo. Iverson looked better than Billups when he played with melo, but once denver traded him Iverson looked like complete shit and washed out of the league.
Melo is a great catch and shoot player and a good finisher around the rim that guys are allowed to foul because he's a perimeter player with a big body.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
.
captmcblack
Member
Billups spent his prime in Detroit and was old/on the downturn in Denver (32 years old).
Kmart and Nene both had severe knee injuries around the same time (between 2005 and 2007), and spent entire seasons on the DL. Arron Affalo is not a viable second option in this, or any dimension - for many of the same reasons JR Smith is also not.
The Billups year(s) where he was an all-NBA 2nd/3rd team-level player, not surprisingly the Nuggets made it out of the first round and made a run through the playoffs. It's amazing, the correlation between other players being able to help Melo, and the length of Melo's playoff runs. And of course, the Nuggets STILL traded Billups away anyway.
So really, can anyone name any players that Melo played alongside that weren't compromised by age or injury?
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Did you just argue that Melo makes his teammates better?! That's rich.
And yes in 2009 Denver were contenders.
And yes in 2009 Denver were contenders.
Of course he makes guys around him better. You seriously think that a good volume scorer doesn't make the players around him better at least offensively? Because if you don't think so then Kobe also doesn't make the guys around him better players.
Melo will never win anything unless he pairs with a good floor general like cp3 or even lebron. His a proven team killer in the playoffs
Go look at kobe's assist numbers in all his successful playoff runs. You'll be very surprised. Phil encouraged ball movement. Unlike melo he could switch between floor general and scorer.
Go look at kobe's assist numbers in all his successful playoff runs. You'll be very surprised. Phil encouraged ball movement. Unlike melo he could switch between floor general and scorer.
So youre basically making excuses for Melo
captmcblack
Member
Melo isn't a team killer. Melo is the only consistent offensive threat on his teams. Defenses love that in the playoffs. Unless you're completely inept, you can just double/triple that one good player, and let the scrubs brick themselves into oblivion.
As for Kobe's assist numbers, who did Kobe assist to? He threw assists to Shaq, and Gasol, and Odom, and Horry and players who consistently knocked shots down in Phil Jackson's system. Of course he'd average more assists. You don't get assists for passes you make when the shooter misses.
Anyway, Melo sucks. Knicks suck. Ballhog, cancer, Durant's better, etc. I know. Not denying it.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
You're assuming Melo is a good volume scorer.
In the 09 WCF when Melo was on the best team he ever was a part of, he shot 40% and 25% from 3 for the series and his man Trevor fucking Ariza went off for 12 a game on 58% shooting including 50% from 3. Melo was the main reason why they lost in 6. He's hugely flawed even to this day.
Really? Did you look at his smush parker playoff assist numbers? A big part of getting assists is getting the ball to your teammates at the right spots and at the right time...Melo will never be on the same level as kobe. Don't even try to use him as an example lol.
theignoramus
Member
did you just fucking use Kobe Bryant as an example of a team oriented guy? dude is a straight up dick who will go stretches where he intentionally doesnt shoot cause he wants to prove a point.
He was playing with a broken arm and bone spurs in his shooting elbow. He was bad shooting that whole season, but he did play instead of missing time and rehabbing.
Yes! We've all developed this selective amnesia about how kobe performed in the playoffs. Someone compared melo to kobe...and i'm telling him even kobe had to adjust his game in the playoffs.
captmcblack
Member
Smush Parker played for the Lakers for like 2 seasons, where the Lakers were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs and were barely a .500 team. You're not really using 2 seasons of Smush Parker to validate Kobe as playmaker, are you?
Heart Attack
Member
to be fair, Melo does make Kobe look like a team oriented guy.
let me get this straight, YOU justified melo's low assists number because of the type of teammates he had right? And i gave you an example of kobe having worse teammates and averaging more assists than melo...Now you are asking what again?
theignoramus
Member
Melo is a chucker, but I never got an asshole demeanor in the way he goes about his business. I never heard him go at teammates after an off shooting night and demand they do more to get him some easier looks.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Bad shooting the whole year? He shot 1 percent below his average and 4 percent above his 3pt% average. He looked mighty healthy against Nola and Dallas. He just got his shit pushed in by Ariza and LA's team D Like Paul George and Indy did this year.
captmcblack
Member
What was Kobe's role on that team? Was he the primary playmaker and ballhandler? I'm looking at those two LAL teams with the bad roster, and it seems that he in fact was. The only person even close was Odom in 2006, who is a very good ballhandler/playmaker himself. Logically, he should average more assists, because his team and his system asked him to do so.
Maybe Carmelo would average more assists if his team and system demanded that he be the primary ballhandler and playmaker...but then, these differences are why Kobe is Kobe and Melo is Melo.
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