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400 people held hostage by Suicide Bombers/Rebels. in Russia

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impirius

Member
How the hell do people manage to work themselves into a state in which they think threatening to blow up a school is a good thing to do...
 

Che

Banned
There are two things pissing me off in this story:

1) Some assholes who threaten to kill 150 children for their nation.

2) Some assholes who already kill a nation for oil.

Sick situation... as always.
 

open_mouth_

insert_foot_
Russia has been raping Chechnya for a long time now and the rebels feel like the only recourse they have is to resort to terrorism and the killings (or threatening) of innocents since they are too militarily inferior to the enemy in a conventional fight or to attempt to attack military targets.

This isn't a justification of the wrongs committed by either side, it's just the way it is.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
I bet a billion dollars that at least 80 hostages die.

At least.

Russians don't give a fuck about their own people.
 

Malleymal

You now belong to FMT.
its a damn shame that people just cant get along, when we resort to having to threaten children, it really is saying what type of world we live in..... Russia needs help.. it is obvious that they can not take care of these rebels... would the US ever send troops over there...
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Malleymal said:
iwould the US ever send troops over there...

You're kidding, right? Hell would have to freeze over and the Chargers win the superbowl and Duke Nukem Forever would have to be released before Russia ever permits U.S. troops to help with the rebels.
 

Malleymal

You now belong to FMT.
<----- jokes alot... but this time I wasnt... I think past conflicts and all need to be squashed when dealing with something like whats going on around the world.... everyone looking to handle stuff on their own is what is making things so horrible....


oh yea the reason I posted ...


any update on whats happening over there....
 
Short of aliens invading Russia or some bizzare anti-matter accident I wouldn't see ANY reason for US forces in any capacity to be in Russia. The leadership might as well behead themselves.



Chechnya has been a Russian problem for a long time. The policies have made it more so a problem but, the question is where are these rebels getting the funding to commit these actions? It's not Iraq I'll tell you that.
 

Chrono

Banned
Che said:
There are two things pissing me off in this story:
1) Some assholes who threaten to kill 150 children for their nation.


NOT that I'm saying it's right....

But he probably had to go through some pretty fucked up shit to have that of mind state... Maybe he saw his own children murdered or get blown up?
 
Chrono said:
NOT that I'm saying it's right....

But he probably had to go through some pretty fucked up shit to have that of mind state... Maybe he saw his own children murdered or get blown up?


When you view the "emeny" as sub-human it is easy to comit all sorts of atrocities.

See -

- Arabs in Darfour
- Americans in Iraq
- Russians in Chechnya
- Palestienens in Isreal
- Iraqi towards contractors

All of these have a vice versa situation but, the key is these some of the people in these situations don't view these individuals as people but part of the problem.

However I'll tell you this there is only one ending here and that is bad. Most of the people in there aren't going to make it out. For the Russians it is more important to crush the rebels than it is save lives. That's why they went for children.
 

G4life98

Member
terrorists have to be the stupidest people on the planet...attacks on innocents only serve to harden the gavernment and the populace against whatever cause they are fighting for.
 

Boogie9IGN

Member
w090124A.jpg


:(
 

Socreges

Banned
Boogie9IGN said:
Same reason a bunch of other countries don't want to give up their territories
There is no one affluent reason, though.

- China, for instance, won't let go of Taiwan because of pride and history. Also, strategic interest.
- The Kurds in the Middle East can't get independence because they are spread out among Turks, Iraqis, etc.
- Resources is frequently the case.

For the Chechens, it could be all of these, or none of these, as far as I know.
 
Socreges said:
Why doesn't Russia want Chechnya to be its own state?


Why doesn't the US want Montana to be it's own country? You just can't opt out of being part of a country. It undermines the soveringty of a nation.
 

Chrono

Banned
Russia conquered Chechnya in 1858 after wars that live in Russian literature and folk memory for the ferocity of the fighting, the romantic desperation of the Chechen warriors and the dramatic grandeur of the scenery. The Chechens next tasted independence in the turmoil that followed the Russian Revolution. They hoped for it again when Moscow's attention was focused on the German invasion - earning themselves demonisation as a "traitor- nation" and enforced deportation to the wastes of Siberia and Central Asia. Along with other exiled peoples, they were allowed to return to their homeland in the mid-Fifties - beneficiaries of Khrushchev's political "thaw".

http://www.cdi.org/russia/229-8.cfm


In the following years under the Soviet Republic, Chechnya was part of a Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Republic, but that was not the all the freedom the Chechens wanted. In 1990 Russia expressed interest in the Azerbaijan oil project and because there is a pipeline running through Chechnya, Russia had all the more reason to keep Chechnya in their possession. Because they wanted to control the Caucasian oil trade, Russia needed Chechnya in their possesion.

http://conflict.gq.nu/modern.htm
 

Slurpy

*drowns in jizz*
Warfare is typically assymetrical- to a point where shit like this has to happen. Russia and Chechnya are both guilty of terrorism, both use different methods.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Slurpy said:
Warfare is typically assymetrical- to a point where shit like this has to happen. Russia and Chechnya are both guilty of terrorism, both use different methods.

True. All warfare, imo, is a just a "legitimized", state-instigated form of terrorism, regardless of the aim.
 

Che

Banned
Slurpy said:
Warfare is typically assymetrical- to a point where shit like this has to happen. Russia and Chechnya are both guilty of terrorism, both use different methods.

I totally agree with you man. It's hard for many people to understand that.
 

Socreges

Banned
Thanks, Chrono. I actually found that second link about the oil, but my computer frucked up. Turned it back on and found this instead:

http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ia/Chechnya/chechnya_oil_riches_fuel_war.htm
Grozny's dwindling supplies will please Russia's generals, but for Kremlin strategists they are a reminder that Moscow's long-term goal of dominating the Caspian basin and its vast oil and gas reserves is as elusive as ever.
But the entire article (which is small) has many good points.

Slick, I know what you're talking about, but this situation just isn't that simple. Russia would probably have continued moving towards Chechen separatism if they didn't have a particular interest in the region.
 
Socreges said:
Slick, I know what you're talking about, but this situation just isn't that simple. Russia would probably have continued moving towards Chechen separatism if they didn't have a particular interest in the region.


Agreed.
 

Boogie9IGN

Member
Socreges said:
There is no one affluent reason, though.

- China, for instance, won't let go of Taiwan because of pride and history. Also, strategic interest.

China needs to stop being such a damned dick and GTFO of Tibet. LET THE DALAI LAMA RETURN
 

Alcibiades

Member
1,000 May Be Held at Russian School

54 minutes ago


By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - Camouflage-clad commandos carried crying babies away from a school where gunmen holding hundreds of hostages freed at least 26 women and children Thursday during a second day of high drama that kept crowds of distraught relatives on edge.

Two new accounts emerged, meanwhile, that the militants were holding at least 1,000 children, teachers and parents inside the school, far more than previously thought.

Russian officials had said that about 350 people were being held by raiders who seized the school in the North Ossetian city of Beslan on Wednesday. But a teacher who was among at least 26 women and children released on Thursday disputed that, according to a report published Friday.

"On television they say that there are 350 of us. That's not right. There's not less than 1,500 in the school," the respected newspaper Izvestia quoted the woman as saying on condition of anonymity.

In addition, local legislator Azamat Kadykov told a meeting packed with worried relatives and friends Friday that the number of hostages was "more or less 1,000."

The reports could not immediately be confirmed, but the woman who spoke with Izvestia said that some 1,000 children were enrolled at the school, and the militants had captured teachers and many parents as well when they invaded the building Tuesday during a ceremony to celebrate the start of the new school year.

As the names of the freed hostages were read over a loudspeaker Thursday, men and women wept with disappointment or hugged each other with relief. Some of the toddlers released were naked, apparently because of the stifling heat in the school, where the hostage-takers refused to allow authorities to deliver water, food and medicine for the captives.

Tensions had risen earlier when the militants fired grenades at two cars near the compound ringed by security forces, and later two grenade blasts interrupted a nervous calm during the night.

Another explosion roared on Friday morning, as Kadykov and Leonid Rosahal, a pediatrician who has been involved in the negotiations, spoke to the crowd of worried residents.

Roshal told parents that all the children inside were alive. As he spoke, parents frantically scribbled names of their children on paper and tried to pass them to the doctor. Others began calling out names, begging for information about their loved ones.

"They want hysteria from us," Roshal said, trying to calm the increasingly desperate crowd. "Our strength is in (our) composure and good sense."

President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) said everything possible would be done to end the "horrible" crisis and save the lives of the children and adults being held at School No. 1 in Beslan, a town in the southern region of North Ossetia.

But it was uncertain how much either side was willing to give to avoid further bloodshed in the siege — the latest incident in a series of violent attacks believed linked to Russia's war in Chechnya (news - web sites). A dozen people were reported killed by the attackers when the school was captured Wednesday, but one official said Thursday that 16 died.

Reports after the standoff began Wednesday said the attackers demanded the release of people jailed after attacks on police posts in June that killed more than 90 people in Ingushetia, a region between North Ossetia and Chechnya. But officials said Thursday that the hostage-takers had not clearly formulated their demands.

Late Thursday, Lev Dzugayev, a North Ossetian official, said his previous statement that 354 hostages were seized Wednesday might have been too low, and many in the anxious crowds said they believed the number was much higher. "Putin: at least 800 people are being held hostage," read a sign held up for television cameras.

Valery Andreyev, chief of the regional office of the Federal Security Service, meanwhile said that contacts with the hostage-takers had resumed Friday morning, following an overnight suspension, but stopped again.

Relatives, friends and neighbors who crowded outside barricades blocking access to the school gasped when the hostage release was announced by Dzugayev, an aide to the president of North Ossetia.



Dzugayev and other officials said 26 women and children of various ages were released, but Russian media reported that one woman went back to be with her still-captive children. An official at the crisis headquarters said another group of five hostages was let go separately.

An Associated Press Television News reporter saw two women and at least three infants being led away by soldiers. Some toddlers among those released were completely naked, apparently because of the heat.

Dzugayev called the releases "the first success" of negotiations and said they came after mediation — including inside the school — by Ruslan Aushev, a former president of the Ingushetia republic who is a respected figure in the northern Caucasus.

The hostage release came after anxieties were sent soaring by two powerful explosions, followed by a plume of black smoke rising from the vicinity of the school. The crisis headquarters said the militants fired grenades at two cars that apparently drove too close to the building. Officials said neither car was hit, but a gutted car was visible not far from the school.

Thursday evening, a series of heavy thuds that sounded like artillery could be heard for several minutes, apparently coming from an area northwest of town. There was no information on what caused the sounds.

Two grenade blasts were heard early Friday, and the Interfax news agency reported a policeman was injured. One projectile exploded on a street several hundred yards from the school and another hit in a yard, witnesses said. Dzugayev said that the hostage-takers told Russian authorities they fired because they saw suspicious movement and that officials told them there was no such movement.

Any hint of violence put people on edge. After seizing the school, the militants reportedly threatened to blow it up if troops tried to rescue the hostages and warned they would kill prisoners if any of their gang was hurt. Authorities estimated 15 to 24 militants held the school.

In his first public comments on the crisis, Putin pledged to do everything possible to rescue the hostages.

"Our main task is, of course, to save the lives and health of those who became hostages," Putin said in televised comments during a meeting at the Kremlin with visiting Jordanian King Abdullah II. "All actions of our forces working on the hostages' release will be devoted and be subject to this task exclusively."

Two major hostage-taking raids by Chechen rebels outside the war-torn region in the past decade prompted forceful Russian rescue operations that led to many deaths. The most recent, the seizure of a Moscow theater in 2002, ended after a knockout gas was pumped into the building, debilitating the captors but causing almost all of the 129 hostage deaths.

Andreyev, the Federal Security Service's chief in North Ossetia, seemed to rule out the use of force against the hostage-takers.

"There is no alternative to dialogue," he told the ITAR-Tass news agency. "One should expect long and tense negotiations."

The militants' identity was also murky.

Dzugayev said the attackers might be from Chechnya or Ingushetia. Law enforcement sources in North Ossetia and Ingushetia, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the attackers were believed to include Chechens, Ingush, Russians and a North Ossetian suspected of participating in the Ingushetia violence.

Russia was on edge following the nearly simultaneous bombings on two jetliners last week, a suicide bombing in Moscow on Tuesday and the school siege.

The upsurge in violence has been a blow to Putin, who pledged five years ago to crush Chechnya's rebels but instead has seen the insurgents increasingly strike civilian targets beyond the republic's borders.

BTW, this plus the hurricane have been eating away coverage of the RNC, and tomorrow's "bad" job numbers are going to compete with this and the hurricane (especially since it's supposed to hit Florida tomorrow).

I'd also like to add that any "terrorism"/"hostage" stories that are kept in the news are just going to bump up Bush's numbers...
 

RiZ III

Member
I hope they let go of the kids. I dont think theyll kill the kids. The Russian army will probably just end up gassing the whole place and then going in guns blazing.
 

duderon

rollin' in the gutter
efralope said:
BTW, this plus the hurricane have been eating away coverage of the RNC, and tomorrow's "bad" job numbers are going to compete with this and the hurricane (especially since it's supposed to hit Florida tomorrow).

I'd also like to add that any "terrorism"/"hostage" stories that are kept in the news are just going to bump up Bush's numbers...

I can see how it could help bush since his campaign revolves around the word "terrorism", but i can also see it hurting him on the stance that he has made the world safer by invading Iraq.

Anyway, i fell very sorry for these russians and i hope there is no bloodshed.
 

duderon

rollin' in the gutter
RiZ III said:
why is the media giving so much attention to this hurricane? Theres hurricane every f*ckin year.

Two major hurricanes in a matter of weeks? I can't remember the last time this has happened. When was the last time a hurricane more destructive than charlie came along? Andrew in 92? I think that's pretty big news.
 

Alcibiades

Member
RiZ III said:
why is the media giving so much attention to this hurricane? Theres hurricane every f*ckin year.
cause it was like just last week or something that they evacuated half the state, this is the 2nd time (and last time it was a one-two punch from two storms).

Florida is getting really assaulted, and supposedly, this hurricane is one bad mo'fo' (although they just lowered it to it on the scale one point).

BTW, did you watch The Day After Tomorrow, it seems weather like this is happening, but at the same time, man is lighting up the planet and the ozone does some funny stuff like become thinkker and all of a sudden, things start getting off-balance. The majority of scientists believe global warming is definitely affecting the planet...

BTW, I think the terrorism (whether it's a negative or postivive story or a threat from some group) just in general would help Bush. It makes the case that the US needs him there longer to keep fighting the war (as poll numbers indicate Americans trust him way more than Kerry). People aren't going to be thinking that Bush could have rid the world of all terrorism, so negative stories will help him also, unless it's a major attack on the US, then things would get complicated and weird...
 

RiZ III

Member
I see what u guys are saying, but I still the coverage is a bit overdone. Yea people are being evacuted, people are boarding up their houses. Happens every year. Sounds cold but its true. I guess if thats whats keeping the viewers entertained then it works for the media.
 

Alcibiades

Member
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/24132.htm

BREAKING THE TIE

By DICK MORRIS

July 1, 2004 -- VIRTUALLY every poll shows a dead heat between President Bush and Sen. John Kerry; the tie has persisted ever since early May, when Iraq let the Democrat back into the race. Some polls suggest Bush has recovered in the past month; others, that he's still slipping. Either way, the two campaigns are locked in mortal combat and each has to be looking for a way to break the tie.

Yet beneath it all lies a deep consensus that spans the parties and both genders.

Voters overwhelmingly believe that Bush would be the better president to wage the War on Terror. In the Fox News survey, voters said that Bush would be better than Kerry at "protecting the U.S. from terror attacks" by 49 percent to 28 percent. (Women said Bush was better by 46-27; men, by 54-30.)

But voters also have more faith in Kerry to deal with a host of domestic issues. Despite the relatively positive economic news of recent months, voters give Kerry an edge of 10 to 30 percentage points on creating jobs, lowering health care costs, protecting Social Security and helping the environment. Even on education, a signature Bush initiative, Kerry has a double digit lead.

The economy still works to Kerry's advantage. His edge shrinks with each good job-creation report — but the lag time in popular perceptions is huge: A plurality of voters still believe we're in a recession, two years after it ended.

This election will hinge on what Americans want in a president. It's not so much a contest between two candidates, ideologies or even parties as it is a clash between two different issues or priorities for the voters.

In this respect, it parallels the 1945 election in the United Kingdom, when voters had a choice of Winston Churchill to lead the nation in war or Labor's Clement Atlee to lead it in peace. With Germany defeated but Japan still holding out, the war was still a real concern, but voters opted for Labor's social-welfare focus.

If terror is dominating the headlines in November, Bush will probably win. If not, he'll likely lose. Events, more than campaigning, are likely to determine the outcome.

This strategic conundrum poses difficult questions for both campaigns.

Bush has to hope for neither too much success nor too much failure in his efforts to eradicate terror, pacify Iraq and curb the ambitions of North Korea and Iran. Too much success would erode the importance of these issues and let domestic questions come to the fore, to Kerry's advantage. Too much failure would besmirch his ratings on fighting terror and could cripple his key advantage, as April's outbreak of violence in Iraq hobbled him in the spring.

Kerry has to hope Bush will succeed so well in fighting terrorism that it disappears as an issue. Only if voters feel genuinely safe will they be willing to reject the man who brought them safety and take a chance on a man they don't entirely trust on the issue.

Should another terrorist attack hit our shores, Americans will likely react the opposite from their Spanish counterparts — we'll rallyaround the president both as an act of patriotism and as a recognition that his skills at fighting terror are still needed.

In each camp, there is likely a division, with some urging the candidate to speak out on the other side's issues and decrease Bush's lead on terror or Kerry's edge on domestic issues. They are basically wrong: Each candidate must use his face time to sell the salience of his issue. Talking about the other side's issues will just increase their importance. The strategy President Bill Clinton used in 1996 to neutralize the GOP lead on issues like welfare, the balanced budget and crime won't work: What matters most now is which issue is more important: terror or domestic policy.
 

duderon

rollin' in the gutter
RiZ III said:
I see what u guys are saying, but I still the coverage is a bit overdone. Yea people are being evacuted, people are boarding up their houses. Happens every year. Sounds cold but its true. I guess if thats whats keeping the viewers entertained then it works for the media.

Doesn't happen every year. Charlie did billions of dollars of damage, the last hurricane to do this was Andrew 12 years ago.

"It is hard to describe seeing an entire community flattened," Bush said.

He said what he saw reminded him of the infamous Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Damage, he said, is clearly in the billions of dollars.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WEATHER/08/14/storms/
 

Forsete

Member
Kill every last one of those fuckers.. Then bomb Chechnya back to the stoneage (hey, its already there.. ).

These people piss me off beyond anything.
 

Shompola

Banned
Forsete said:
Kill every last one of those fuckers.. Then bomb Chechnya back to the stoneage (hey, its already there.. ).

These people piss me off beyond anything.

Ohhh just shut the fuck up with the bomb them to the stoneage. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Even though what the terrorists are doing are among the worst things you can do, it doesn't excuse Russia to do the same to innocent chechens, Russia isn't exactly innocent they started the fucking mess in Chechnya 10 years ago or so.
 

marsomega

Member
Put a rubber tire on them, gas them, and burn them. Opening fire on the children running away. No freaking cause can save face in such an act. Don't know why, but its when the children suffer that I become blinded with rage.


Weren't these the same people that killed russian soldiers and posted the videos on the net? Who were they?
 

Forsete

Member
Shompola said:
Ohhh just shut the fuck up with the bomb them to the stoneage. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Even though what the terrorists are doing are among the worst things you can do, it doesn't excuse Russia to do the same to innocent chechens, Russia isn't exactly innocent they started the fucking mess in Chechnya 10 years ago or so.

You are probably right.. I cant think clearly when they are going these things to KIDS..
CNN says they have opened fire on some kids trying to escape..

Chechnya has been part of Russia ever since the 1870ies.. It was the Chechnyans who started it as far as I know. Yes I know some of the stuff the Russians have done, none of it is right.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
fuck they are all running in to kill them now. crazy.
 
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