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[Dick Jones]

“Legitimate grievances” is quite the term to justify barbaric terrorism.

I didn't say that. My question was did the normal Palestinian civilian have legitimate grievances about their treatment by the Israeli Government? If the answer is yes, then those are the grievances that need to be worked on in order for peace. I qualified grievances with the word legitimate to cut out the extremist takes people could claim. I'm on about everyday stuff.

If the answer is no, then what country is Gaza and West Bank in? It must be Palestine. Is Palestine recognised by the UN? Why not? Do Palestinians have the free movement of travel to and from their borders? Do they have control over their borders and resources such as water? For a country to flourish you can't treat them as second class people or "animals" as members of the Israeil Government called them. Maltreatment of innocent civilians encourages Hamas.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Israel didn't just start killing Palestinians after October 2023. Not to mention the expansion of settlements into the West Bank. How does that help?

The only way for Israel to avoid killing Palestinians is to stand by passively as they are being attacked and killed.

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20230108_the_occupied_territories_in_2022_largest_number_of_palestinians_killed_by_israel_in_the_west_bank_since_2004

The merciless Israeli genocide in Gaza killed a grand total of 146 people in 2022. If they had killed zero way more than 146 Isralis would have been killed by the at least 42 armed Palestinians among the dead.
If Gaza had been an American state its murder rate of 7,3/100k would have placed it in the bottom, between Florida and Minnesota.

But it does not matter. Zero, 146 or 50 thousand deaths, Hamas will fight to destroy Israel no matter what and the people of Gaza support them.

 

[ADiTAR]

I didn't say that. My question was did the normal Palestinian civilian have legitimate grievances about their treatment by the Israeli Government? If the answer is yes, then those are the grievances that need to be worked on in order for peace. I qualified grievances with the word legitimate to cut out the extremist takes people could claim. I'm on about everyday stuff.

If the answer is no, then what country is Gaza and West Bank in? It must be Palestine. Is Palestine recognised by the UN? Why not? Do Palestinians have the free movement of travel to and from their borders? Do they have control over their borders and resources such as water? For a country to flourish you can't treat them as second class people or "animals" as members of the Israeil Government called them. Maltreatment of innocent civilians encourages Hamas.

In the West Bank they are free to travel thru Jordan.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 to its own, what did it get? What grievances does Gazans have since 2005 when Israel rooted out all the settlers and left? They were left to fend for their own, going in and out thru Egypt.

 

[longrainwater]

That 67 map still recognises Israel so it's not me wanting them wiped off the map.

They don’t want a “67 map” if they did they would have accepted it when it was offered (see the Khartoum conference). They want “from the river to the sea”.

And btw, the Arabic version of that chant is genocidal. It translates to “from the water to the water will be Arab.”

The English version is just a wink wink to manipulate useful idiots in the west.

 

[Dick Jones]

In the West Bank they are free to travel thru Jordan.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 to its own, what did it get? What grievances does Gazans have since 2005 when Israel rooted out all the settlers and left? They were left to fend for their own, going in and out thru Egypt.

So Gaza has free movement of people unhindered by Israel since 2005. Who has final control over the entry of food into Gaza? Who has final control over water and electricity in Gaza?

 

[Dick Jones]

They don’t want a “67 map” if they did they would have accepted it when it was offered (see the Khartoum conference). They want “from the river to the sea”.

And btw, the Arabic version of that chant is genocidal. It translates to “from the water to the water will be Arab.”

The English version is just a wink wink to manipulate useful idiots in the west.

Do you want a 67 map?

 

[longrainwater]

Do you want a 67 map?

If it lead to actual peace, of course.

 

[Dick Jones]

If it lead to actual peace, of course.

How can it lead to peace if you claim they never wanted it before. Times change and people change. The IRA's goal was a United Ireland. Prior peace deals fell through. Among other things the Good Friday Agreement didn't unite Ireland but paved a possibility into the future when it is acceptable to the majority. The RA are non-players now but there is no united Ireland. Because it fails doesn't mean you stop trying. If that was the case Northern Ireland would still be in a worse place. Israel/Palestine is not a unique situation. Get that notion out of your head. They are more similarities between the Troubles and Israel/Palestine. This has happened before but people get weary of the bloodshed and want peace and equality. You have to all work for it and be willing to sacrifice for peace.

 

[longrainwater]

How can it lead to peace if you claim they never wanted it before. Times change and people change. The IRA's goal was a United Ireland. Prior peace deals fell through. Among other things the Good Friday Agreement didn't unite Ireland but paved a possibility into the future when it is acceptable to the majority. The RA are non-players now but there is no united Ireland. Because it fails doesn't mean you stop trying. If that was the case Northern Ireland would still be in a worse place. Israel/Palestine is not a unique situation. Get that notion out of your head. They are more similarities between the Troubles and Israel/Palestine. This has happened before but people get weary of the bloodshed and want peace and equality. You have to all work for it and be willing to sacrifice for peace.

Despite what many Irish people seem to think, Ireland has absolutely no relevance to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict whatsoever. The ideologies are completely different.

 

[longrainwater]

What’s interesting is you use words like “you claim”. No, I didn’t claim anything. You brought up 1967 borders, and I pointed out that those were rejected. You then justified their rejection, and then said there can’t be peace because they were rejected. It’s very circular and cringeworthy.

It’s quite ignorant to try to shoehorn this conflict into Irish history, because that’s all you know.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Some harsh images and videos of the famine and post-genocide of the Gazans.

War always resumes in the middle east. It's never ending.

As for the starvation PR, it's like the TV charity ads you see about people in Africa. They make it look like all 1.4 billion people on the continent live on dirt mounds starving to death. Always take that stuff as 1% truth and 99% false kind of thing.

 

[llien]

They want “from the river to the sea”.

I hope you meant the current Israeli cabinet.
And if not, maybe you are missing something rather important about this conflict.

 

[Dick Jones]

Despite what many Irish people seem to think, Ireland has absolutely no relevance to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict whatsoever. The ideologies are completely different.

How so? What makes this unique?

What’s interesting is you use words like “you claim”. No, I didn’t claim anything. You brought up 1967 borders, and I pointed out that those were rejected. You then justified their rejection, and then said there can’t be peace because they were rejected. It’s very circular and cringeworthy.

It’s quite ignorant to try to shoehorn this conflict into Irish history, because that’s all you know.

I didn't justify the rejection. I claimed that you need to keep working for peace. If it didn't work before you go back and go back and try and give it a proper go. Not to give up and continue violence.

There is nothing special in this conflict that hasn't happened before. There are alot of similarities between the Troubles. Those are facts.

 

[longrainwater]

I hope you meant the current Israeli cabinet.
And if not, maybe you are missing something rather important about this conflict.

No I mean the “from the water to the water Palestine is Arab” chant which has been conveniently mistranslated in the west.

 

[longrainwater]

There is nothing special in this conflict that hasn't happened before. There are alot of similarities between the Troubles. Those are facts.

At no point in the Troubles did the Irish elect a government whose charter calls for murdering every English person around the world. And then predicts that their victory will only come when the biblical prophecy that foretells of them murdering all English people as they hide behind trees comes true.

 

[ADiTAR]

So Gaza has free movement of people unhindered by Israel since 2005. Who has final control over the entry of food into Gaza? Who has final control over water and electricity in Gaza?

so you go to war with the people who give you water and food? when did Israel stopped those in any time besides a breach by Hamas?

Israel left in 2005, when it did it left behind fully functional greenhouses and more, so Gaza can be self sufficient in food. Hamas burned them all down.

No matter how you'd spin it, Gaza was left alone, and all we got were rockets and terror. Showing that in the end this isn't about territory or "Palestine". This is a religious cause going after Jews. Nothing more to it.

The hint for this shows in the pro-terror protests that call to globalize the intifada, what do you think that means?

 

[MisterFalcon]

The IRA are a bunch of pussies compared to Hamas. Look at this amateur shit:

1996 Docklands bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-Make a 3000 pound truck bomb
-Drive into a densely populated city, the capital of your enemy
-Call the Brits to warn them about the bomb and give them plenty of time to evacuate everyone
-End up doing a lot of property damage and kill two people

Imagine Hamas with a 3000 pound bomb in Tel Aviv. Do you seriously think there would be a warning?

 

[Dick Jones]

At no point in the Troubles did the Irish elect a government whose charter calls for murdering every English person around the world. And then predicts that their victory will only come when the biblical prophecy that foretells of them murdering all English people as they hide behind trees comes true.

The Troubles were notorious with people making joke threats to each other. So was every other conflict..apart from yours it seems.

The two are more closely linked than you think. You won't accept it as you'll see that no one has clean hands and we must all take responsibility for our actions before we can move forward.

Since you are an expert on the Troubles, who were the good guys?

 

[longrainwater]

The Troubles were notorious with people making joke threats to each other.

Says it all

 

[llien]

No I mean the “from the water...

Then I got news for you:

	Israel and Jewish population	Hamas and Palestinian population
Country border	From the sea to the river	From the river to the sea
Is it OK to kill the civilians?	Yes, of course	Of course yes
Means used to achieve the desired borders	Bulldozes Settler violence Army armed with F35s and what not Occasional "shot an Arab" fun Periodic "and now that and that piece of land is ours too"	Militia equipped with rocket built from water pipes and fertilizers "Random dude with a knife" violence Stones
Would use other side's means instead	Lol, of course not	Lol, of course yes
Is Classified as	Poor victim of terrorists / Apartheid	Poor victims of Apartheid / Terrorist
Number of civilians killed	10-50 times more than Hamas	Thousands
Historical bazingas to "justify" own position	Palestinians live there for not even a thousand years! They are not real Palestinians!	Holocaust denial (hard to say, why they think it is relevant)
Population share across Israel + occupied territories	About half	About half
Birth per female	Very HIgh	Even Higher
In the US, supported by	Republicans and Democrats	Just Democrats

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Then I got news for you:

	Israel and Jewish population	Hamas and Palestinian population
Country border	From the sea to the river	From the river to the sea
Is it OK to kill the civilians?	Yes, of course	Of course yes
Means used to achieve the desired borders	Bulldozes Settler violence Army armed with F35s and what not Occasional "shot an Arab" fun Periodic "and now that and that piece of land is ours too"	Militia equipped with rocket built from water pipes and fertilizers "Random dude with a knife" violence Stones
Would use other side's means instead	Lol, of course not	Lol, of course yes
Is Classified as	Poor victim of terrorists / Apartheid	Poor victims of Apartheid / Terrorist
Number of civilians killed	10-50 times more than Hamas	Thousands
Historical bazingas to "justify" own position	Palestinians live there for not even a thousand years! They are not real Palestinians!	Holocaust denial (hard to say, why they think it is relevant)
Population share across Israel + occupied territories	About half	About half
Birth per female	Very HIgh	Even Higher
In the US, supported by	Republicans and Democrats	Just Democrats

Dont for get for the Hamas side when it comes to attacks.... hostages, suicide bombings, uses civilians and public buildings as cover, and hides under giant tunnels.

 

[llien]

StreetsofBeige
The "Would use other side's means instead" row is there for a reason.

 

[Crystal Winters]

Good, but it still pisses me off that they killed many of them first. Like that half German woman they paraded around naked in the back of a truck. Fuck Hamas.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Good, but it still pisses me off that they killed many of them first. Like that half German woman they paraded around naked in the back of a truck. Fuck Hamas.

That entire region has a scummy way of doing stuff like this. It's like a mass mobfest. The area where somehow tons of people can crowd around burning and stomping enemy flags in bonfires, hostage and kidnapping attacks, underground HQ below public buildings etc... Always a low brow way of doing things. And they wonder why people look down on them.

Not the type of thing you see in western countries from civilians or military. I dont get a sense a shit ton of people in NY City will gather around and do flag stomping sessions shooting AK 47s in the air kind of thing.

 

[ADiTAR]

That entire region has a scummy way of doing stuff like this. It's like a mass mobfest. The area where somehow tons of people can crowd around burning and stomping enemy flags in bonfires, hostage and kidnapping attacks, underground HQ below public buildings etc... Always a low brow way of doing things. And they wonder why people look down on them.

Not the type of thing you see in western countries from civilians or military. I dont get a sense a shit ton of people in NY City will gather around and do flag stomping sessions shooting AK 47s in the air kind of thing.

mmm.. did you miss the burning of Israeli and US flags in Western protests? stomping on it and more?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

mmm.. did you miss the burning of Israeli and US flags in Western protests? stomping on it and more?

I'm talking more about the locals home grown from the start as kids. A lot of those local protests are indoctrinated people and tiny in comparison to the giant mobs you see in mid east cities doing things like this forever. I dont get a sense you get kindergarten kids doing hostage situation skits in the US like in Gaza.

 

[ADiTAR]

I'm talking more about the locals home grown from the start as kids. A lot of those local protests are indoctrinated people and tiny in comparison to the giant mobs you see in mid east cities doing things like this forever. I dont get a sense you get kindergarten kids doing hostage situation skits in the US like in Gaza.

yeah, instead of kindergarten in the US they do it at colleges and universities.

 

[llien]

Ceasefire lines.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Since The Troubles brought up, highly recommend the following:

RealLifeLore — Modern Conflicts — Modern Conflicts: The Troubles

The Troubles in Northern Ireland, peace process, and questions in the present day.

nebula.tv

RealLifeLore in general an awesome source to summarize various conflicts in history. They have a youtube channel as well, but all their censored/controversial stuff you need to watch through Nebula, such as The Troubles. Pretty great source to learn about all the big hitters - palestine/israel, al quaeda, ukraine/russia, etc. Brings a lot of geographic/demographic perspective into it